Moving Masters sets from "formats" to "themes" is really about one thing only - finding a way to deliver less value for the same money. It's all about reprint equity. They can't keep printing desirable staples at the rate they were and keep the pace of releases up. One of theses two things had to change...and they're obviously going to try the approach first that makes them the most money, even if it burns shops and players as a result.
So...instead of simply releasing less Masters sets, but keeping the value intact, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to pump these things out, dramatically change the formula by watering them down with low-supply, low-demand bubbles and Commander fodder, while putting a Jace, or what the **** ever, on the cover to convince Timmy to buy it. Meanwhile, they heavily emphasize drafting, as though constructed players should really give a ***** as to whether or not the the $30+ drafting environment is marginally better by dramatically sacrificing card pool availability.
The "But Limited..." argument defending some very questionable rare/mythic inclusions is really starting to max out on the bull***** meter, in my opinion. Master sets have to deliver value first and foremost. Limited really needs to be a second priority. We already have Iconic Masters rotting on shelves lending incontrovertible evidence to back up this claim.
As much as I want to love A25, it just reeks of manipulation sprayed from a Jace-branded can to cover up the stench of this *****ty new recipe for "premium" sets. It's such an obviously callous move to "unban" Jace to prop up a watered down Master set, once you had some pretty good evidence that people are, in fact, not stupid, and didn't take the bait by supporting your new idea of what kind of value a premium set should deliver. They probably weren't even sure, themselves, whether or not they were going to unban Jace until they got feedback back from Iconic Masters....and decided that they really needed to do something to save a set that was likely to suffer a similar fate.
Don't get me wrong...A25 is certainly better than IM, but that's not saying a lot. It's miles away in quality from MM17... which, itself, was selling for $180 shortly after launch.
All in all, I'm both heavily disappointed and relived. Disappointed for obvious reasons...but relived because I now have little desire to pick up boxes of this set and can happily spend that money elsewhere.
So...instead of simply releasing less Masters sets, but keeping the value intact, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to pump these things out, dramatically change the formula by watering them down with low-supply, low-demand bubbles and Commander fodder, while putting a Jace, or what the **** ever, on the cover to convince Timmy to buy it. Meanwhile, they heavily emphasize drafting, as though constructed players should really give a ***** as to whether or not the the $30+ drafting environment is marginally better by dramatically sacrificing card pool availability.
Begs the question of why they're printing it in the first damn place. Half of it you might as well light your fire with. Anyone who cares about the value of a draft environment enough to pay $50NZD for the experience is a wastrel and a fool.
The "But Limited..." argument defending some very questionable rare/mythic inclusions is really starting to max out on the bull***** meter, in my opinion. Master sets have to deliver value first and foremost. Limited really needs to be a second priority. We already have Iconic Masters rotting on shelves lending incontrovertible evidence to back up this claim.
Spot on. Lasting value trumps draft experience any day.
I just don't get it. If they were really wanting to celebrate 25 years in the game, wouldn't they want a decent reception from their fanbase? I just don't see this selling well at present. There can't possibly be enough value in the unspoiled slots to redeem this.
Plague wind seems to be the last rare, and how could we blame them... I mean it's not like demonic is one of the best cards in the game, right? Infamous throughout magics history... powerful, ICONIC if you will. Two masters set in such a short time-span focusing on older cards, neither one had demonic tutor in it... I think the people who think they understand magics history should take an extended vacation, like, phasing out but not phasing back in.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
If you’re not actually going to prove my intent wrong after clarification: don’t argue semantics.
Your point is this:
Modern Masters rose to 360$ for a booster box, then over the course of two years it dropped down to 350$ a box.
The fact that you can't acknowledge that shows me how little you believe your own statement.
Like I mentioned before tax. (Tax per pack would actually cover the difference)
And even if you don’t factor in tax...
The difference between 350 and 360 is 50 cents per pack...
Are you really going to criticize me for a 50 cent difference that can be attributed to rounding and or tax? 350 would be 14.5 per pack.
360 is 15.
This is why I said you are arguing Symantics.
EDIT: The reason I don't entertain the
Modern Masters rose to 360$ for a booster box, then over the course of two years it dropped down to 350$ a box.
because that's only my argument if you are looking at semantics... which I am not ._.
a LSG will sell a pack that normally goes 14.5 (if you buy a box) for 15$ on a pack-per-pack basis ._.
If you’re not actually going to prove my intent wrong after clarification: don’t argue semantics.
Your point is this:
Modern Masters rose to 360$ for a booster box, then over the course of two years it dropped down to 350$ a box.
The fact that you can't acknowledge that shows me how little you believe your own statement.
Like I mentioned before tax. (Tax per pack would actually cover the difference)
And even if you don’t factor in tax...
The difference between 350 and 360 is 50 cents per pack...
Are you really going to criticize me for a 50 cent difference that can be attributed to rounding and or tax? 350 would be 14.5 per pack.
360 is 15.
This is why I said you are arguing Symantics.
So you're saying that Modern Masters 2013, is the set that defies the inflation laws of Modern Masters 2015, and Modern Masters 2017, and started at 360$, that's WITHOUT Tax, and dropped down to 350$ over the course of TWO YEARS.
If you’re not actually going to prove my intent wrong after clarification: don’t argue semantics.
Your point is this:
Modern Masters rose to 360$ for a booster box, then over the course of two years it dropped down to 350$ a box.
The fact that you can't acknowledge that shows me how little you believe your own statement.
Like I mentioned before tax. (Tax per pack would actually cover the difference)
And even if you don’t factor in tax...
The difference between 350 and 360 is 50 cents per pack...
Are you really going to criticize me for a 50 cent difference that can be attributed to rounding and or tax? 350 would be 14.5 per pack.
360 is 15.
This is why I said you are arguing Symantics.
So you're saying that Modern Masters 2013, is the set that defies the inflation laws of Modern Masters 2015, and Modern Masters 2017, and started at 360$, that's WITHOUT Tax, and dropped down to 350$ over the course of TWO YEARS.
I'm not arguing over semantics, I'm arguing against your reading comprehension apparently.
I never stated that it dropped down to 350$ per year. You did.
Originally I said that the price rose to 15$ per pack. It's not uncommon for LSGs to include tax in the final price of their products. The MTGOGoldfish data does not.
My argument has been and will always be the sale price quickly rose to 15$ PER INDIVIDUAL PACK (which in most places included tax)
You are indeed arguing semantics at this point to prove me wrong... but whatever floats your boat.
^Lol Plague Wind, pretty much sums up the salt fest in this forum...
There's still room for Rhystic Study at Uncommon; could be another Prophecy card.
Also the numbers say Phyrexian Tower can be printed, still. I think I have arthritis from keeping my fingers crossed this long....
'cute'EDIT: All rares are done on the number crunch so they'd have to downshift the rarity of the Tower, which is still possible...but highly unlikely.
Serberus, every time we've tried to predict a good outcome so far, it's turned around and hit us in the face. They didn't even print a single thing at mythic outside of what they revealed early on that has any serious staying power. Even if they reprint Rhystic Study, it doesn't see much play outside of commander so it's just going to get murdered. They have to print Path to Exile, Fatal Push, etc to help carry the set and I don't think we are going to see that happen.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Serberus, every time we've tried to predict a good outcome so far, it's turned around and hit us in the face. They didn't even print a single thing at mythic outside of what they revealed early on that has any serious staying power. Even if they reprint Rhystic Study, it doesn't see much play outside of commander so it's just going to get murdered. They have to print Path to Exile, Fatal Push, etc to help carry the set and I don't think we are going to see that happen.
That is true, however they have started to take into account the EDH interest in a lot of these picks. I think WotC will skip over Push and print something with the 'relatively' and recently banned mechanic energy lol.
I'm and EDHer so getting foil versions of my commander is okay in my books it just seems unfortunate that they keep printing 35%(value) sets. We've been pretty adamant about the problems of their over-saturation and it's affect on the game, card value and overall product quality in other threads.
Serberus, every time we've tried to predict a good outcome so far, it's turned around and hit us in the face. They didn't even print a single thing at mythic outside of what they revealed early on that has any serious staying power. Even if they reprint Rhystic Study, it doesn't see much play outside of commander so it's just going to get murdered. They have to print Path to Exile, Fatal Push, etc to help carry the set and I don't think we are going to see that happen.
I am holding my breathe. I think based on the power-quality of the uncommon/commons we've already seen it's "possible".
I just know tomorrow is the final day for me. All of my friends have cancelled their own pre-orders after seeing this and I'm just holding out because of a "maybe the uncommons and commons hold it?" The reality is the common slot is probably not going to do a whole lot and the uncommons have to be downshifted gold to make this work now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The real problems are in the rares, honestly, yes the Mythics were very divisive, but the last time almost the entire Mythic slots were filled with value the rares paid the entire price to balance it out and that was the disaster that was MM2. "Fixing" the Mythic slots in A25 will not solve anything then giving you marginally better chances of opening the top prizes out of your 3-Mythics per box while your rares continue to suffer.
I'm not saying the Mythic slot is problem-free, just staring at the Tree alone, which has less value than the Mythic with least value in MM3 (Domri Rade) speaks volumes, but I'm pointing out that even if you replaced the Tree with a reasonably valuable Mythic (say Vengevine), it doesn't really change the statistics enough to be visible in reality (although it'll help marketing a lot better that's for sure).
Between Iconic and A25, they've spread the pool too thin already (and for extra salt they even got theme wrong since A25 is more iconic, although Iconic definitely isn't anniversary material).
I'm not holding out hope for good uncommons already, we all know the typical preview season rarely ever leaves gems behind the full spoiler release, since they need that little 20% value to be in the actual preview days to drum up hype (and they even exhausted that early on this time round).
Oh me neither, but it'd be funny if wizards just screwed with everyone's predictions and just vomited decent commons/uncommons from here on out. But that's almost a guarantee to not happen at this point.
Oh me neither, but it'd be funny if wizards just screwed with everyone's predictions and just vomited decent commons/uncommons from here on out. But that's almost a guarantee to not happen at this point.
That would be hilarious. I can't even imagine what they'd have to release to raise the value at this point. I guess at this point, I write off masters and hope for some cool reprints in this year's commander precons.
This. I'll reserve a final judgement until the remainder of the set is revealed tomorrow morning, but...come the frick on.
Dominaria your the next hyped anniversary set.....here we come cuzz we're skipping this
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/81512v/so_value_of_mm25_looks_meh_treeofredemption/dv0zjhg/
Moving Masters sets from "formats" to "themes" is really about one thing only - finding a way to deliver less value for the same money. It's all about reprint equity. They can't keep printing desirable staples at the rate they were and keep the pace of releases up. One of theses two things had to change...and they're obviously going to try the approach first that makes them the most money, even if it burns shops and players as a result.
So...instead of simply releasing less Masters sets, but keeping the value intact, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to pump these things out, dramatically change the formula by watering them down with low-supply, low-demand bubbles and Commander fodder, while putting a Jace, or what the **** ever, on the cover to convince Timmy to buy it. Meanwhile, they heavily emphasize drafting, as though constructed players should really give a ***** as to whether or not the the $30+ drafting environment is marginally better by dramatically sacrificing card pool availability.
The "But Limited..." argument defending some very questionable rare/mythic inclusions is really starting to max out on the bull***** meter, in my opinion. Master sets have to deliver value first and foremost. Limited really needs to be a second priority. We already have Iconic Masters rotting on shelves lending incontrovertible evidence to back up this claim.
As much as I want to love A25, it just reeks of manipulation sprayed from a Jace-branded can to cover up the stench of this *****ty new recipe for "premium" sets. It's such an obviously callous move to "unban" Jace to prop up a watered down Master set, once you had some pretty good evidence that people are, in fact, not stupid, and didn't take the bait by supporting your new idea of what kind of value a premium set should deliver. They probably weren't even sure, themselves, whether or not they were going to unban Jace until they got feedback back from Iconic Masters....and decided that they really needed to do something to save a set that was likely to suffer a similar fate.
Don't get me wrong...A25 is certainly better than IM, but that's not saying a lot. It's miles away in quality from MM17... which, itself, was selling for $180 shortly after launch.
All in all, I'm both heavily disappointed and relived. Disappointed for obvious reasons...but relived because I now have little desire to pick up boxes of this set and can happily spend that money elsewhere.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Your point is this:
Modern Masters rose to 360$ for a booster box, then over the course of two years it dropped down to 350$ a box.
The fact that you can't acknowledge that shows me how little you believe your own statement.
Begs the question of why they're printing it in the first damn place. Half of it you might as well light your fire with. Anyone who cares about the value of a draft environment enough to pay $50NZD for the experience is a wastrel and a fool.
Spot on. Lasting value trumps draft experience any day.
I just don't get it. If they were really wanting to celebrate 25 years in the game, wouldn't they want a decent reception from their fanbase? I just don't see this selling well at present. There can't possibly be enough value in the unspoiled slots to redeem this.
This is so sad and true, that it's actually kind of hilarious.
Plague wind seems to be the last rare, and how could we blame them... I mean it's not like demonic is one of the best cards in the game, right? Infamous throughout magics history... powerful, ICONIC if you will. Two masters set in such a short time-span focusing on older cards, neither one had demonic tutor in it... I think the people who think they understand magics history should take an extended vacation, like, phasing out but not phasing back in.
I know, right?
Like I mentioned before tax. (Tax per pack would actually cover the difference)
And even if you don’t factor in tax...
The difference between 350 and 360 is 50 cents per pack...
Are you really going to criticize me for a 50 cent difference that can be attributed to rounding and or tax? 350 would be 14.5 per pack.
360 is 15.
This is why I said you are arguing Symantics.
EDIT: The reason I don't entertain the
because that's only my argument if you are looking at semantics... which I am not ._.
a LSG will sell a pack that normally goes 14.5 (if you buy a box) for 15$ on a pack-per-pack basis ._.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
So you're saying that Modern Masters 2013, is the set that defies the inflation laws of Modern Masters 2015, and Modern Masters 2017, and started at 360$, that's WITHOUT Tax, and dropped down to 350$ over the course of TWO YEARS.
And that Modern Masters 2015
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Sealed Product/Modern Masters 2015 Edition Booster Box#paper
and...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Sealed Product/Modern Masters 2017 Booster Box#paper
I'm not arguing over semantics, I'm arguing against your reading comprehension apparently.
I never stated that it dropped down to 350$ per year. You did.
Originally I said that the price rose to 15$ per pack. It's not uncommon for LSGs to include tax in the final price of their products. The MTGOGoldfish data does not.
My argument has been and will always be the sale price quickly rose to 15$ PER INDIVIDUAL PACK (which in most places included tax)
You are indeed arguing semantics at this point to prove me wrong... but whatever floats your boat.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
There's still room for Rhystic Study at Uncommon; could be another Prophecy card.
Also the numbers say Phyrexian Tower can be printed, still. I think I have arthritis from keeping my fingers crossed this long....
'cute'EDIT: All rares are done on the number crunch so they'd have to downshift the rarity of the Tower, which is still possible...but highly unlikely.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm and EDHer so getting foil versions of my commander is okay in my books it just seems unfortunate that they keep printing 35%(value) sets. We've been pretty adamant about the problems of their over-saturation and it's affect on the game, card value and overall product quality in other threads.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
I am holding my breathe. I think based on the power-quality of the uncommon/commons we've already seen it's "possible".
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
At least it looks like it would fun to draft.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm not saying the Mythic slot is problem-free, just staring at the Tree alone, which has less value than the Mythic with least value in MM3 (Domri Rade) speaks volumes, but I'm pointing out that even if you replaced the Tree with a reasonably valuable Mythic (say Vengevine), it doesn't really change the statistics enough to be visible in reality (although it'll help marketing a lot better that's for sure).
Between Iconic and A25, they've spread the pool too thin already (and for extra salt they even got theme wrong since A25 is more iconic, although Iconic definitely isn't anniversary material).
I'm not holding out hope for good uncommons already, we all know the typical preview season rarely ever leaves gems behind the full spoiler release, since they need that little 20% value to be in the actual preview days to drum up hype (and they even exhausted that early on this time round).
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
That would be hilarious. I can't even imagine what they'd have to release to raise the value at this point. I guess at this point, I write off masters and hope for some cool reprints in this year's commander precons.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries