On an unrelated note, will people please stop bringing up Commander when they don't know how a newly spoiled card will slot into Standard/Modern? "It will see play in EDH/Tiny Leaders" is about the lamest filler out there when discussing cards during spoiler season,
For legendary creatures it is absolutely relevant, since that is the one format that actually cares whether a card is legendary or not. To be honest, there are players that ONLY care about Commander, just like there are players that only care about Modern. I'm honestly more sick of people evaluating cards for Modern than I am of hearing people evaluating for Commander - so each to their own. I mostly care about Standard, and I'm to the point that I have to explicitly state that because people will debunk what I say from a Modern lens when I don't care about that format.
more often the not "playable in EDH" is accompanied with the undertone that said card won't be played anywhere else. Bottom line is that sort of "unbiased opinion" isn't constructive, is derogatory and should be avoided.
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If it's not playable in Commander it is very likely not playable in Modern. It might see play in Standard only because of the limited amount of other options (especially being the first set of the next rotation cycle for those that are planning ahead.)
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Personally, I think this card will be incredible in Standard. Remember Cryptbreaker? People mostly ran it for the card-drawing ability, as far as I can recall. The token-making part was pretty nice, I'll admit, but so is a tribal +1/+1 counter pump. Seems... incredibly playable to me.
You're missing the point. Ulrich may have been intended for EDH, but he failed. When a nonlegendary card like Mayor of Avabruck is infinitely better served as a werewolf leader than Ulrich, when even the generic Huntmaster of the Fells is a better design, they did not deliver an EDH playable. Even the non-werewolf Ruric Thar, the Unbowed works better mechanically as the commander of a werewolf deck.
I don't care what their intent was - Ulrich was a failure. He wasn't what EDH players wanted, so you can't blame him on EDH players. Blame him on the designers who failed to understand their player base.
No, YOU'RE missing the point. Ulrich would never have made it into EMN if it weren't because EDH players wanted a werewolf commander. MaRo made this very clear. He didn't make SOI because he competed for colours with Arlinn Kord, and then in EMN they wanted all the transform cards to be Eldrazi, but MaRo dug in insisting that players wanted a Legendary Werewolf and he'd be breaking too many expectations if it didn't happen in SOI block.
whether you like the card not is irrelevant - the card literally only exists because of EDH players - and it is a PERFECT example of why they shouldn't design just for EDH specifically in tournament sets (do that in Commander) If they weren't trying to appease EDH expectations, that card slot would have gone to another Eldrazi instead (not that that would have been much better... but it would have been consistent with the rest of the set)
What are you talking about? This new Kumena is a great card for EDH but isn't going to do a thing in any other constructed format. It's a PERFECT example of why WotC should be designing cards for their entire players base, not just the standard crowd. Ulrich was a complete fail because they didn't think ENOUGH about the EDH community. I don't understand why people think that standard legal "tournament" sets should ONLY contain cards meant for standard/limited. If that's the case, perhaps you should be complaining what a complete dumpster fire standard has been the last few years.
I don't understand why people think that standard legal "tournament" sets should ONLY contain cards meant for standard/limited. If that's the case, perhaps you should be complaining what a complete dumpster fire standard has been the last few years.
The same people complaining about EDH focused cards in Standard sets are ALSO complaining about the dumpster fire that Standard has been. It's part of the same problem (but not the only part of it)
I actually don't think Kumena is too bad for Standard - so it is a 'good' card that is designed for both EDH and Standard. My commment was directing at Ulrich being a bad card that only existed because they 'had to' cater to the EDH players regardless of 'fit' in the set.
But for the most part - 'fixing' Standard needs to be their top priority - everything else needs to take a back seat until then. There's a whole separate print release that they can use to offer stuff for Commander players.
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Personally, I think this card will be incredible in Standard. Remember Cryptbreaker? People mostly ran it for the card-drawing ability, as far as I can recall. The token-making part was pretty nice, I'll admit, but so is a tribal +1/+1 counter pump. Seems... incredibly playable to me.
To be fair this is a beefier upgrade to cryptbreaker's body, however cryptbreaker could generate value by itself and was propped up in large part by prized amalgam, scrapheap scrounger or haunted dead - heck even liliana's mastery in standard. Often you were advancing your board and tapping down two, probably summoning sick, tokens and a cryptbreaker token to draw a card...9 P/T or more back to block and draw if you wanted it. Before this shell it was used in the RB madness list with smugler's copter, which cryptbreaker is just downright unfair with.
The pump seems silly and over costed. I can't really see this ever mattering in a constructed environment you weren't going to win anyway unless it's against a board of tokens...which represents one fringe deck right now. The draw is legit, and there are several cards that can stick out hexproof dudes to tap to him and draw more gas. The unblockable is okay, and really just seems like a way for him to swing through Dino's and larger stuff.
I don't see him generating much value if he's played. I think my opponents will more than likely just ignore him. The unblockable clause makes him a solid target for 1/1 counters though. Attune, river sneak, kumena, into merfolk and pump spell seem like a fine clock to set up if your opponent allows it.
How in the world is this the most valuable card in the set? Modern Merfolk barely wants to touch him, Standard Merfolk isn't really a thing, and I can't imagine the handful of people dying to play Merfolk in Commander are driving demand that much. Another example of how ridiculous the secondary market is getting.
How in the world is this the most valuable card in the set? Modern Merfolk barely wants to touch him, Standard Merfolk isn't really a thing, and I can't imagine the handful of people dying to play Merfolk in Commander are driving demand that much. Another example of how ridiculous the secondary market is getting.
I'm also presently building a merfolk EDH deck and I'm baffled by his secondary market price. I intend to simply sit and wait a month for his price to crash. Then again Carnage Tyrant sees little to no play whatsoever besides kitchen table magic and somehow its price has remained high.
How in the world is this the most valuable card in the set? Modern Merfolk barely wants to touch him, Standard Merfolk isn't really a thing, and I can't imagine the handful of people dying to play Merfolk in Commander are driving demand that much. Another example of how ridiculous the secondary market is getting.
I'm also presently building a merfolk EDH deck and I'm baffled by his secondary market price. I intend to simply sit and wait a month for his price to crash. Then again Carnage Tyrant sees little to no play whatsoever besides kitchen table magic and somehow its price has remained high.
It was meta and still wins games in fnm and maybe now in pro tuor again.
How in the world is this the most valuable card in the set? Modern Merfolk barely wants to touch him, Standard Merfolk isn't really a thing, and I can't imagine the handful of people dying to play Merfolk in Commander are driving demand that much. Another example of how ridiculous the secondary market is getting.
Agreed. This secondary Market is getting out of hand.
What's everyone complaining about if they don't want the card or believe it is very good? The market will adjust if demand truly is that low. If, however, you believe the card is good, but believe the price shouldn't be high because it isn't seeing competitive play right now, then you likely do not understand how the secondary market works.
What's everyone complaining about if they don't want the card or believe it is very good? The market will adjust if demand truly is that low. If, however, you believe the card is good, but believe the price shouldn't be high because it isn't seeing competitive play right now, then you likely do not understand how the secondary market works.
Please explain how the secondary market works, oh wise one.
What's everyone complaining about if they don't want the card or believe it is very good? The market will adjust if demand truly is that low. If, however, you believe the card is good, but believe the price shouldn't be high because it isn't seeing competitive play right now, then you likely do not understand how the secondary market works.
Please explain how the secondary market works, oh wise one.
It's not that difficult, honestly. The price of any given card is based on lots of factors and its presence in tier 1 decks in specific moments is only one of them. If that were the case, Tarmogoyf would have drastically fallen multiple times and Siege Rhino would have been a >10$ staple in KTK Standard.
Kumena is a Merfolk lord, and Merfolk have an evergreen appeal: people are thus willing to pay a lot to grab it and build their beloved deck. Moreover, even if right now the deck doesn't really have all the tools to consistently beat other tier 1s, it has another year and a half to get the spotlight. Zombies were a thing only after Amonkhet, after all...and what was the best card in the deck? The one which is more similar to Kumena...
It would be easy to go on and become boring, but I hope it's clear enough. What I want to point out is that I'm not saying I like all of this: it's just how the system works, and it won't change until the whole community changes... which won't happen. We're only partially smart apes after all.
Current tier 1 competitive play isn't the only factor in card price, but it's by far the biggest when we're talking about new in print sets. And it's not like Merfolk isn't just not tier 1, it's barely a blip in the Standard meta and even there it isn't a full playset. Modern Merfolk isn't really including many copies either, among the subset going to U/G. As for tribal appeal, Merfolk is a second tier tribe in terms of popularity at best, and I say this as someone who has been playing Merfolk in Modern for years. There is no precedent for a card like this to be worth as much as it is. Sorry, but the potential for a tribal legend to maybe be competitively viable in the future isn't enough to sustain a card that no one is playing at the top of a new set 2 weeks after launch. Zombies are a much more popular, more casual viable tribe, and by this point after SoI release Relentless Dead's price had already started to crater as people realized zombies weren't going to be a thing yet. This smells like speculation, not just natural market forces.
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For legendary creatures it is absolutely relevant, since that is the one format that actually cares whether a card is legendary or not. To be honest, there are players that ONLY care about Commander, just like there are players that only care about Modern. I'm honestly more sick of people evaluating cards for Modern than I am of hearing people evaluating for Commander - so each to their own. I mostly care about Standard, and I'm to the point that I have to explicitly state that because people will debunk what I say from a Modern lens when I don't care about that format.
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If it's not playable in Commander it is very likely not playable in Modern. It might see play in Standard only because of the limited amount of other options (especially being the first set of the next rotation cycle for those that are planning ahead.)
Standard:
GMono-Green CountersG
Modern:
URStormUR
XMyr OverflowX
BWBlack-White TokensBW
EDH:
WUGrand Arbiter Augustine's Spell DenialWU
WGRhys's TokensWG
RKrenko's CommandR
The same people complaining about EDH focused cards in Standard sets are ALSO complaining about the dumpster fire that Standard has been. It's part of the same problem (but not the only part of it)
I actually don't think Kumena is too bad for Standard - so it is a 'good' card that is designed for both EDH and Standard. My commment was directing at Ulrich being a bad card that only existed because they 'had to' cater to the EDH players regardless of 'fit' in the set.
But for the most part - 'fixing' Standard needs to be their top priority - everything else needs to take a back seat until then. There's a whole separate print release that they can use to offer stuff for Commander players.
To be fair this is a beefier upgrade to cryptbreaker's body, however cryptbreaker could generate value by itself and was propped up in large part by prized amalgam, scrapheap scrounger or haunted dead - heck even liliana's mastery in standard. Often you were advancing your board and tapping down two, probably summoning sick, tokens and a cryptbreaker token to draw a card...9 P/T or more back to block and draw if you wanted it. Before this shell it was used in the RB madness list with smugler's copter, which cryptbreaker is just downright unfair with.
The pump seems silly and over costed. I can't really see this ever mattering in a constructed environment you weren't going to win anyway unless it's against a board of tokens...which represents one fringe deck right now. The draw is legit, and there are several cards that can stick out hexproof dudes to tap to him and draw more gas. The unblockable is okay, and really just seems like a way for him to swing through Dino's and larger stuff.
I don't see him generating much value if he's played. I think my opponents will more than likely just ignore him. The unblockable clause makes him a solid target for 1/1 counters though. Attune, river sneak, kumena, into merfolk and pump spell seem like a fine clock to set up if your opponent allows it.
T2: Silvergill Adept (Or Merfolk Branchwalker)
T3: Kumena Himself
T4: Aquatic Incursion. With five creatures on turn 4, activate Kumena immediately for additional cards (or counters, depending on opponent's board state).
Hm. Ever since Aquatic Incursion was previewed, I've been wondering how well it curves from Kumena.
I'm also presently building a merfolk EDH deck and I'm baffled by his secondary market price. I intend to simply sit and wait a month for his price to crash. Then again Carnage Tyrant sees little to no play whatsoever besides kitchen table magic and somehow its price has remained high.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
It was meta and still wins games in fnm and maybe now in pro tuor again.
Agreed. This secondary Market is getting out of hand.
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Please explain how the secondary market works, oh wise one.
Current tier 1 competitive play isn't the only factor in card price, but it's by far the biggest when we're talking about new in print sets. And it's not like Merfolk isn't just not tier 1, it's barely a blip in the Standard meta and even there it isn't a full playset. Modern Merfolk isn't really including many copies either, among the subset going to U/G. As for tribal appeal, Merfolk is a second tier tribe in terms of popularity at best, and I say this as someone who has been playing Merfolk in Modern for years. There is no precedent for a card like this to be worth as much as it is. Sorry, but the potential for a tribal legend to maybe be competitively viable in the future isn't enough to sustain a card that no one is playing at the top of a new set 2 weeks after launch. Zombies are a much more popular, more casual viable tribe, and by this point after SoI release Relentless Dead's price had already started to crater as people realized zombies weren't going to be a thing yet. This smells like speculation, not just natural market forces.