Or they simply print NEW good cards that compete against them.
They just dont deliver on that front , and the random Delve mechanic cards that do are outright banned ... so GG.
Theres really no need to massivly reprint cards, if theres a somewhat constant stream of NEW good cards.
But if we get like 1 Fatal Push per 2 set Blocks, almost nothing new gets added to older formats.
If they want to power down new sets, its the price they pay , cards are just too bad for modern.
We don't need variations of snapcaster, though. They made the card people want to use and there is no reason to not bring it back once in a while.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But if we get like 1 Fatal Push per 2 set Blocks, almost nothing new gets added to older formats.
If they want to power down new sets, its the price they pay , cards are just too bad for modern.
Please dont repeat this. Standard cards make it into Modern all the time.
Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but how often do we get something like Fatal Push into the format? What other cards recently have broken into Modern and made a huge splash that almost every deck truly wants?
Asking for a card everyone wants is disingenuous in a format as wide as Modern. Hollow One and Bedlam Reveler went from bulk to beauty overnight with Pro Tour results. Collective Brutality has been hot since a few months after its release. Whir of Invention now has people clamoring for a Lantern ban of any kind. Vizier of Remedies is a better Melira for the combo into Walking Ballista which you can find with a Duskwatch Recruiter. Unclaimed Territory and Kitesail Freebooter were in the most played deck at the Pro Tour. Renegade Rallier was a promo right before Fatal Push. It's not just Standard getting a card which slots into Modern decks; new decks break out all the time.
Since most of those are rare and FNM sticks to uncommon, we're too late for a Recruiter promo but not for a Vizier. Aether Hub was also a great promo when energy was everywhere. If they announce Opt for April, it'll be the best thing since P1P1 Jace in Eternal Masters. I'd love Ceremonious Rejection considering how much Tron and Lantern I'll probably be seeing soon enough. Abrade or any of Hour's Defeat cycle could be nice too. They could do any of the new merfolk uncommons and get all sorts if Fish players happy.
But if we get like 1 Fatal Push per 2 set Blocks, almost nothing new gets added to older formats.
If they want to power down new sets, its the price they pay , cards are just too bad for modern.
Please dont repeat this. Standard cards make it into Modern all the time.
Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but how often do we get something like Fatal Push into the format? What other cards recently have broken into Modern and made a huge splash that almost every deck truly wants?
How often do we get format redefining cards?
Not very often thankfully. :]
That does not mean as the post above me illustrates, that cards are not making it into Modern decks, even if they are below Fatal Push levels of power.
That does not mean as the post above me illustrates, that cards are not making it into Modern decks, even if they are below Fatal Push levels of power.
Its not wrong what i said, just make sure you read it right.
I never said no card is making it into modern, if all checkboxes are checked, and you have a card that fits an existing deck, why shouldnt you add cards.
----
Almost all 2 set blocks have like ~1 real card thats relevant for modern and a bunch of specific deck archtype addons.
Any somewhat useful artifact might be a consideration for the Robots deck, any remotely playable burn spell might be something for a burn deck.
Specific cards like the Hollow One require specific decks, thats fine, but these cards are so narrow that they are nothing fancy in a set.
----
Modern became quite a format of decks that have very narrow strategies , so universally good cards are even harder to see the light of day (and it happens very rarely, thats the entire point of the initial comment).
Fatal Push is a format defining card, as its efficient enough that decks want to play black and it competes against other format allstars like Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile, which is a pretty stand out card, nobody could deny that.
So it comes down to universally good cards, or specific cards for specific combos (as almost any cheap junk card could be useful if a combo exists thats efficient enough, and if that slots into existing powerful cards like Collected Company the synergy alone makes this into a viable deck, reason enough that all the creatures under 3 mana are more relevant than 4+ mana creatures, thanks to Collected Company alone).
It never was much different that a set didnt have more than 1 to like 5 cards at max (most of the time some cycle of lands, or the like) that mattered in older formats.
Cards need to be very powered and relevant for the specific needs of these format to shine.
Eldrazi are a prime example of cards that on their own wouldnt stand a chance, but the lands pushed them into viability and the ability to run Chalice of the Void is always a welcome benefit that is very relevant to modern (a format filled with 1-2 mana cards).
Humans also only exists in its form as it got the critical mass of 5color lands to support it.
----
Statement still stands, if they wanted to print MORE Fatal Push like cards per set, they totally could do so, but they just choose not to.
If you look at something like Glorybringer, which is downright stupidly overpowered for its manacost, its the kind of card that simply cannot really work in modern, as its still too expensive and its effect is also not relevant with the creatures in it.
Same problem applies to other cards that wanted to push like The Scarab God. The new bunch of planeswalker are also pretty much universally too bad for modern, simply because they choose to design the cards to not be relevant in modern.
In the end you could even argue that modern is filled with "mistakes" of design and cards that are specificly pushed to a limit that makes them good enough.
And the other kind of decks require very specific cards and just need to wait for a set to catch that specific theme and add a handful of cards to it.
Nothing inherently wrong with that, you just dont have to like it.
Stuff makes it into modern when said stuff is able to land fast enough to deal with the threats present in the format. The reason the majority of cards do not make the cut is due to three factors:
1) There are several or more cards in modern that actually are legitimately above the curve in regards to the new balancing system the developers / design team has created. These cards like Lightning Bolt automatically get first pick over other cards that get printed because of it.
2) In modern, if there is a choice between a broad answer and a more narrow, but more efficient answer, the latter of the two will always win. This isn't true in all cases, but for the majority it is. Fatal Push is a narrow answer, but it answers what people need to answer better than more flexible and less efficient cards like Heroes Downfall, so it makes the cut just on mana curve alone.
3) The strategy is just not well supported. Affinity, Merfolk, and Tron are three types of strategies that all have support from historic sets that let them handle the kinds of situations and threats the format tends to present. In the case of Tron, it actually just tries to ignore most of the things going on and just land the game winning card to control the field.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. This is a great change to the game because it will allow for them to actually invite players to play FNM with a purpose now. The foil cards had trade value, but they were also great for Cube, Modern, Pauper, and casual 60 card decks. Tokens are only good for some Cube and some Commander decks after Standard. That's not enough to entice players.
2. Messing with rotation lists is what killed Extended. Modern was built to restart without the Reserved List. Extended was it's own unique format that was excellent for players with Standard collections and had a smaller, transition collection before the big time. The collision between price spikes and the rise of Commander, Cube, and Modern were the three horsemen that might've helped kill Extended saved Magic and developed the double digit growth back then.
Extended I feel could have existed as a transition format and something of a regional format in some places. It just became the canary on how to kill a format.
3. Mark Roeswater's vision was to have Standards without any of the original Magic cards in them. It's the concept of newness, but the issue has been that people want familiarity and to continue to use their collections. He's seen this with functional reprints as well, where people just want to be able to use their old cards with the old art.
4. Moving to 1 large set means that we lose out on Block Constructed format, which was another format we lost when new sets were released per year to two sets per year. It was a small format that with the right promotion was a good system.
That was the old supply chain for competitive players.
Today it is:
Casual 60 card->Commander
Draft->Standard->Modern
Draft->Cube
Now there are permutations and differences to note every single "supply chain" and introduction. However, you can see the system in that the reach to different formats requires people to actually move around a bit. The goal of the game is to be able to enjoy multiple formats, Magic is multiple games in one. And at the current, we're not getting the old value we saw out of commons and only uncommons and rares and mythics now for the most part maintain constructed value.
Casual and rogue decks are necessary, equally are promoting and supporting formats like Pauper. This would mean newer reprint cycles and building newer decks without problems in the game. I for one believe that the problems with the game are such that if the moved away from the New World Order on commons and embraced their 20 years of designs by using more of those cards. Then supporting more older formats and allowing for ease of transition into these formats.
Bulk rares and commons lead to cheap decks, cheap decks in formats leads to low level entry barriers. Khans was successful because it was a multi color block that had fetch lands and created many new Modern and Commander decks. They wait too long and too conservative to reprint cards, but always want to print new cards based on the latest theories on game design.
Magic is easy to reprint for, it is the lack of will. The focus on making draft more playable hurts Standard constructed and thereby other formats. Warping formats belongs to the destruction and undermining of spells in the game. The power level is too low to support the Standard metagame when a mistake is printed.
All I have to do now is patiently wait two months for people to come back to FNM
People actually stopped coming to FNMs because of the tokens, and you expect them to come back when promo cards return? Who are all these people that only come to FNMs for the chance of winning a foil alternate art Noose Constrictor? I have such a hard time accepting the narrative that FNM promos have a huge impact on attendance, except maybe the cream of the crop like Push and Path.
Some competitive players like to play fancy, competitive cards.
When you remove the "competitive" pool of players from attending FNM, you don't even have enough people to run FNM half of the time.
I don't play Standard, so typically don't go to FNMs, but when Path and Serums were up for grabs, the stores were packed, and I made sure I had a deck to attend those. Promos definitely drive attendance. Especially when they're 5$+ bills.
I agree with all of that. But Path, Push and Serum Visions were the rare exceptions, three in three years. Almost all the promos for the last few years were worthless or near worthless cards that saw little play or no play at all. I just don´t see Reverse Engineer driving people to the game stores to attend events that they otherwise wouldn´t bother with. 2017 only had two with any sort of value, Aether Hub and Fatal Push, and one more highly playable one in Unlicenced Disintegration. The rest of the year was Fortune's Favor, Servo Expedition, Reverse Engineer and so on.
And that was even a good year. Now look at 2016: Nissa's Pilgrimage, Clash of Wills, Smash to Smithereens, Blighted Fen, Goblin Warchief, Sylvan Scrying, Spatial Contortion, Crumbling Vestige, Flaying Tendrils, Rise from the Tides, Fiery Temper, Call the Bloodline. A few of them were kind of playable, none of them valuable, and I really don´t think any of these cards drove any competitive players, or other players for that matter, out of their homes. It´s a nice bonus if you´re attending anyway, and definitely better than tokens, but I think it´s unrealistic to state that they had a huge impact on attendance.
All I have to do now is patiently wait two months for people to come back to FNM
People actually stopped coming to FNMs because of the tokens, and you expect them to come back when promo cards return? Who are all these people that only come to FNMs for the chance of winning a foil alternate art Noose Constrictor? I have such a hard time accepting the narrative that FNM promos have a huge impact on attendance, except maybe the cream of the crop like Push and Path.
Some competitive players like to play fancy, competitive cards.
When you remove the "competitive" pool of players from attending FNM, you don't even have enough people to run FNM half of the time.
I don't play Standard, so typically don't go to FNMs, but when Path and Serums were up for grabs, the stores were packed, and I made sure I had a deck to attend those. Promos definitely drive attendance. Especially when they're 5$+ bills.
I agree with all of that. But Path, Push and Serum Visions were the rare exceptions, three in three years. Almost all the promos for the last few years were worthless or near worthless cards that saw little play or no play at all. I just don´t see Reverse Engineer driving people to the game stores to attend events that they otherwise wouldn´t bother with. 2017 only had two with any sort of value, Aether Hub and Fatal Push, and one more highly playable one in Unlicenced Disintegration. The rest of the year was Fortune's Favor, Servo Expedition, Reverse Engineer and so on.
And that was even a good year. Now look at 2016: Nissa's Pilgrimage, Clash of Wills, Smash to Smithereens, Blighted Fen, Goblin Warchief, Sylvan Scrying, Spatial Contortion, Crumbling Vestige, Flaying Tendrils, Rise from the Tides, Fiery Temper, Call the Bloodline. A few of them were kind of playable, none of them valuable, and I really don´t think any of these cards drove any competitive players, or other players for that matter, out of their homes. It´s a nice bonus if you´re attending anyway, and definitely better than tokens, but I think it´s unrealistic to state that they had a huge impact on attendance.
I agree with where you are coming from, but I would definitely point out that I made a point of being there for the Sylvan Scrying promo. The rest were junk, but those replaced the originals in my Tron deck. I am not one for foils, I usually avoid them, and I only see trade fodder when I look at pack foils, but I do like promo versions.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Tolarian College did a video urging WotC to recognize that this is an opportunity to learn from what they did wrong and right with FNM promos and to get it right every time.
It doesn't hurt them one bit to keep printing playable FNM cards in fact it only helps them.
We will see if they're bitter and give us crap or they want to succeed and give us more Fatal Pushin'
We don't need variations of snapcaster, though. They made the card people want to use and there is no reason to not bring it back once in a while.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Please dont repeat this. Standard cards make it into Modern all the time.
Spirits
Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but how often do we get something like Fatal Push into the format? What other cards recently have broken into Modern and made a huge splash that almost every deck truly wants?
Since most of those are rare and FNM sticks to uncommon, we're too late for a Recruiter promo but not for a Vizier. Aether Hub was also a great promo when energy was everywhere. If they announce Opt for April, it'll be the best thing since P1P1 Jace in Eternal Masters. I'd love Ceremonious Rejection considering how much Tron and Lantern I'll probably be seeing soon enough. Abrade or any of Hour's Defeat cycle could be nice too. They could do any of the new merfolk uncommons and get all sorts if Fish players happy.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
How often do we get format redefining cards?
Not very often thankfully. :]
That does not mean as the post above me illustrates, that cards are not making it into Modern decks, even if they are below Fatal Push levels of power.
Spirits
Its not wrong what i said, just make sure you read it right.
I never said no card is making it into modern, if all checkboxes are checked, and you have a card that fits an existing deck, why shouldnt you add cards.
----
Almost all 2 set blocks have like ~1 real card thats relevant for modern and a bunch of specific deck archtype addons.
Any somewhat useful artifact might be a consideration for the Robots deck, any remotely playable burn spell might be something for a burn deck.
Specific cards like the Hollow One require specific decks, thats fine, but these cards are so narrow that they are nothing fancy in a set.
----
Modern became quite a format of decks that have very narrow strategies , so universally good cards are even harder to see the light of day (and it happens very rarely, thats the entire point of the initial comment).
Fatal Push is a format defining card, as its efficient enough that decks want to play black and it competes against other format allstars like Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile, which is a pretty stand out card, nobody could deny that.
So it comes down to universally good cards, or specific cards for specific combos (as almost any cheap junk card could be useful if a combo exists thats efficient enough, and if that slots into existing powerful cards like Collected Company the synergy alone makes this into a viable deck, reason enough that all the creatures under 3 mana are more relevant than 4+ mana creatures, thanks to Collected Company alone).
It never was much different that a set didnt have more than 1 to like 5 cards at max (most of the time some cycle of lands, or the like) that mattered in older formats.
Cards need to be very powered and relevant for the specific needs of these format to shine.
Eldrazi are a prime example of cards that on their own wouldnt stand a chance, but the lands pushed them into viability and the ability to run Chalice of the Void is always a welcome benefit that is very relevant to modern (a format filled with 1-2 mana cards).
Humans also only exists in its form as it got the critical mass of 5color lands to support it.
----
Statement still stands, if they wanted to print MORE Fatal Push like cards per set, they totally could do so, but they just choose not to.
If you look at something like Glorybringer, which is downright stupidly overpowered for its manacost, its the kind of card that simply cannot really work in modern, as its still too expensive and its effect is also not relevant with the creatures in it.
Same problem applies to other cards that wanted to push like The Scarab God. The new bunch of planeswalker are also pretty much universally too bad for modern, simply because they choose to design the cards to not be relevant in modern.
In the end you could even argue that modern is filled with "mistakes" of design and cards that are specificly pushed to a limit that makes them good enough.
And the other kind of decks require very specific cards and just need to wait for a set to catch that specific theme and add a handful of cards to it.
Nothing inherently wrong with that, you just dont have to like it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
1) There are several or more cards in modern that actually are legitimately above the curve in regards to the new balancing system the developers / design team has created. These cards like Lightning Bolt automatically get first pick over other cards that get printed because of it.
2) In modern, if there is a choice between a broad answer and a more narrow, but more efficient answer, the latter of the two will always win. This isn't true in all cases, but for the majority it is. Fatal Push is a narrow answer, but it answers what people need to answer better than more flexible and less efficient cards like Heroes Downfall, so it makes the cut just on mana curve alone.
3) The strategy is just not well supported. Affinity, Merfolk, and Tron are three types of strategies that all have support from historic sets that let them handle the kinds of situations and threats the format tends to present. In the case of Tron, it actually just tries to ignore most of the things going on and just land the game winning card to control the field.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
2. Messing with rotation lists is what killed Extended. Modern was built to restart without the Reserved List. Extended was it's own unique format that was excellent for players with Standard collections and had a smaller, transition collection before the big time. The collision between price spikes and the rise of Commander, Cube, and Modern were the three horsemen that might've helped kill Extended saved Magic and developed the double digit growth back then.
Extended I feel could have existed as a transition format and something of a regional format in some places. It just became the canary on how to kill a format.
3. Mark Roeswater's vision was to have Standards without any of the original Magic cards in them. It's the concept of newness, but the issue has been that people want familiarity and to continue to use their collections. He's seen this with functional reprints as well, where people just want to be able to use their old cards with the old art.
4. Moving to 1 large set means that we lose out on Block Constructed format, which was another format we lost when new sets were released per year to two sets per year. It was a small format that with the right promotion was a good system.
Draft->Block Constructed->Standard->Extended->Legacy
That was the old supply chain for competitive players.
Today it is:
Casual 60 card->Commander
Draft->Standard->Modern
Draft->Cube
Now there are permutations and differences to note every single "supply chain" and introduction. However, you can see the system in that the reach to different formats requires people to actually move around a bit. The goal of the game is to be able to enjoy multiple formats, Magic is multiple games in one. And at the current, we're not getting the old value we saw out of commons and only uncommons and rares and mythics now for the most part maintain constructed value.
Casual and rogue decks are necessary, equally are promoting and supporting formats like Pauper. This would mean newer reprint cycles and building newer decks without problems in the game. I for one believe that the problems with the game are such that if the moved away from the New World Order on commons and embraced their 20 years of designs by using more of those cards. Then supporting more older formats and allowing for ease of transition into these formats.
Bulk rares and commons lead to cheap decks, cheap decks in formats leads to low level entry barriers. Khans was successful because it was a multi color block that had fetch lands and created many new Modern and Commander decks. They wait too long and too conservative to reprint cards, but always want to print new cards based on the latest theories on game design.
Magic is easy to reprint for, it is the lack of will. The focus on making draft more playable hurts Standard constructed and thereby other formats. Warping formats belongs to the destruction and undermining of spells in the game. The power level is too low to support the Standard metagame when a mistake is printed.
And that was even a good year. Now look at 2016: Nissa's Pilgrimage, Clash of Wills, Smash to Smithereens, Blighted Fen, Goblin Warchief, Sylvan Scrying, Spatial Contortion, Crumbling Vestige, Flaying Tendrils, Rise from the Tides, Fiery Temper, Call the Bloodline. A few of them were kind of playable, none of them valuable, and I really don´t think any of these cards drove any competitive players, or other players for that matter, out of their homes. It´s a nice bonus if you´re attending anyway, and definitely better than tokens, but I think it´s unrealistic to state that they had a huge impact on attendance.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I agree with where you are coming from, but I would definitely point out that I made a point of being there for the Sylvan Scrying promo. The rest were junk, but those replaced the originals in my Tron deck. I am not one for foils, I usually avoid them, and I only see trade fodder when I look at pack foils, but I do like promo versions.
It doesn't hurt them one bit to keep printing playable FNM cards in fact it only helps them.
We will see if they're bitter and give us crap or they want to succeed and give us more Fatal Pushin'
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