Thank you. This myth or just mindless acceptance that new players should be playing with piles of objectively bad cards and the idea that we should be okay with WOTC profiting from selling lazy designs that they themselves know are bad both need to end. The only options on the design scale for these things isn't either this or cards so powerful these decks will be bought at by scalpers. If it didn't occur to most of the people in this thread so far, the settings on the good old R&D-ometer aren't limited to 0 and 11. Assuming that when it is pointed out, rightly, that these cards and this product is bad and does nothing beneficial for new players, that the person bringing up grievances with the product either wants something specifically for them or wants something of a very high power level is a weak strawman attempt to discredit criticism and it's honestly pathetic.
1. But as I mentioned right at the start, all of this is beside the point. This product is for the people that don't even know what Magic is, the people who happen to see it on a shelf at Target or Walmart and are curious enough to buy it (or ask their parents to buy it). You do that by showing off exciting foil Planeswalkers, and cards that let you find your exciting foil Planeswalkers. 2. Not by building a functional but boring as all hell deck of vanilla cards with a decent curve.3. If a person is asking you how to start playing Magic, this product isn't really for them because they've already taken the first steps themselves (asking a friend or going specifically to a LGS, for example), in which case a Welcome Deck would probably be a better fit. But calling Planeswalker decks objectively bad is to ignore their primary purpose, which is to entice people with no knowledge or interest in the game to pick it up and give it a try.
1. They can literally do both of these. There is nothing stopping them from creating a mostly functional deck with reasonable paths for improvement while also putting the exact same shiny foil planeswalker on the front of it along with that planeswalker's exact same search card and their same support creature. I haven't seen anyone asking for these decks to be tuned FNM ready decks from the start. There's nothing wrong with the deck containing it's share of not so great cards. As I've been saying, there should still be room for improvement in these decks. The problem is that the decks (historically) are almost completely those types of cards that are borderline useless anywhere but the kitchen table. This is why people don't like these decks. Because handing potential new players a bundle of cards that aren't going to serve them very well, and the company knows this, for a fairly substantial few to a lot of such potential new players, is simply scummy and we know WOTC can do better than this.
2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.
3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.
The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Tbh while I know these products are intended for new players, the first advice I'd give a new player would always be "don't buy these".
Which is a little bit sad.
And why would you do that?
Because they will not help a new player as a whole. The cards are jank and have no play ability against anything other than other plainswalker decks. The decks are poorly built. They don't provide a good launching point. Honestly I could build a better single expansion all common deck. In fact I build such decks fairly often.
When I see a new player I teach them with the free decks wizard provides and if they like the game I help them build a deck out of draft leftovers. These decks would retail for less than those plainswalker decks had the bought the cards as singles, but are better decks, with better cards. Yes they will still lose a lot but at least CAN win as the deck is at least built right with a good curve. And upgrading is easier as the deck has a better base.
I have taught over thirty people how to play in in my life. Most still playing to this day. My advice on these products is to avoid most of them. Play the starter deck I give them. Update ones collection though draft, prereleases and singles. Well and Commander decks as they often have good value and are playable out of the box if they want to start playing commander.
I would never suggest anyone buy a painswalker deck outside of collectors wanting to own them for completeness sake. They are just a bad product. Poorly built, poor card quality, and poor value. There is no upside for them to start the game with these weak decks that aren't a real upgrade to the free decks wizards gives newbies. I am with Azurhawk, my advice to new players is not to buy those decks. They aren't a good starting point. They don't demonstrate how to build a good deck. They are needlessly bad and aren't a good product for anyone really.
Thank you. This myth or just mindless acceptance that new players should be playing with piles of objectively bad cards and the idea that we should be okay with WOTC profiting from selling lazy designs that they themselves know are bad both need to end. The only options on the design scale for these things isn't either this or cards so powerful these decks will be bought at by scalpers. If it didn't occur to most of the people in this thread so far, the settings on the good old R&D-ometer aren't limited to 0 and 11. Assuming that when it is pointed out, rightly, that these cards and this product is bad and does nothing beneficial for new players, that the person bringing up grievances with the product either wants something specifically for them or wants something of a very high power level is a weak strawman attempt to discredit criticism and it's honestly pathetic.
Giving players things that they can build on top of and grow from is not only a good strategy of nurturing a healthy and growing playerbase, but is also simply a good business decision. What sense does it make for WOTC to build a product for which a new player cannot find a playgroup at a game store or college campus or high school club? I don't know where you guys have been playing but you don't have to have an area full of spikes to be very underpowered with a planeswalker deck. Creating a product for new players should actually mean that it gives them an avenue to play with other magic players somewhere other than a kitchen table. There does not need to be a product tailored specifically to players who do not play any of fnm, draft, sealed, commander or any sanctioned format because these players can pick up just about anything mtg off the shelf and have it apply to their games. But if these decks had some form of play value, not monetary value, that doesn't matter with these, some level of decent, middle of the road, "hey there's a bunch of pretty okay cards in here" kind of play value, then those same beginners who bought these decks might be able to turn them into something that can put up a decent fight at an LGS, maybe with some tips from established players (and it would still benefit kitchen table players just the same). Oh look at that an opportunity for interaction with the community in a positive, mentoring kind of way.
As these decks are now I cannot with a good conscience recommend that any new player waste $15 on one of these and I've told several of other alternatives to these and that's going to continue as long as these decks keep going the way they have been. My comments are about how PW decks have been in aggregate, not on these specific decks because we haven't seen much of them yet (but I don't have a lot of faith for them).
And what if the new player never intended to become competitive in the first place? What if they'd actually enjoy playing these cards? The moment Scoed said "playability", the post lost credibility, because that's just another sign you're not seeing these products through the proper lens. You're still judging them by "playability" rather than, I don't know, casual fun factor? Comprehension? Accessibility? And what if they end up hating the cards you do encourage them to play? For that matter, what cards or products are you currently encouraging them to play? What if they don't enjoy playing competitively, and just want to play casual? What if they end up picking the decks up anyway out of curiosity? And if you're concerned about them wasting money, why not try teaching them by letting them play with cards from your collection? Maybe build some decks out of cards you aren't currently using, if any? That way, they can learn for free!
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
1. They can literally do both of these. There is nothing stopping them from creating a mostly functional deck with reasonable paths for improvement while also putting the exact same shiny foil planeswalker on the front of it along with that planeswalker's exact same search card and their same support creature. I haven't seen anyone asking for these decks to be tuned FNM ready decks from the start. There's nothing wrong with the deck containing it's share of not so great cards. As I've been saying, there should still be room for improvement in these decks. The problem is that the decks (historically) are almost completely those types of cards that are borderline useless anywhere but the kitchen table. This is why people don't like these decks. Because handing potential new players a bundle of cards that aren't going to serve them very well, and the company knows this, for a fairly substantial few to a lot of such potential new players, is simply scummy and we know WOTC can do better than this.
As far as I am aware, the decklists for GRN Planeswalker decks haven't been released yet so instead I'll pull one of the M19 ones:
I'm not going to argue there aren't some... questionable... inclusions (seriously, what is that singleton Sovereign's Bite doing in there) but by and large the deck isn't terrible. Obviously it could be made better but it's certainly not the worst deck I've ever seen. Hell, I think Demon of Catastrophes is going to be an actual Standard player once Kaladesh and friends rotate. Gravewaker is a card I didn't even know existed but it seems pretty sweet for EDH. Like, when I went to look these up I was expecting this deck to be a lot worse than it actually is, the way ya'll are talking about them. Without actually adding any new cards but only increasing the copies of cards already in the deck, I think I could scrape together an FNM playable Mono-black aggro deck. Will it beat Tier 1 decks? Probably not. But it would certainly be able to put up some wins. So I'm not really seeing the complaint that the deck doesn't give you a blueprint to make a decent deck.
2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.
You're right, it was more a shot at this line by scoed:
3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.
There is a significant difference between a person who has made a conscious effort to engage with the game, either by asking a friend to teach them to play or by seeking out a place to learn like an LGS, and a person who has maybe heard the name Magic: the Gathering but has never really given it a thought before seeing a product display at a big box store. Someone seeking out the game is already a win as far as WotC is concerned because they know the best way to learn is to have other people teach you, so the person that sought the game out is already most of the way toward being a player. Planeswalker decks are mostly a way to spark (bam, puns!) that initial engagement by making someone who otherwise wouldn't play the game stop, pick up the box and say "Hey, what's this? It looks interesting." That's what WotC is after here.
The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?
The Welcome Deck thing is mostly a personal hang up of mine. I basically never recommend new players buy anything without playing the game first. If I'm physically at my LGS, I've got time to sit down and play some Welcome Deck games and teach them the rules to see if they like it. No reason for me to suggest they spend a bunch of money just for them to end up not liking the game.
For what they are (free!) the Welcome Decks are fine, but for how much flak people give Planeswalker decks for being draft chaff... damn Welcome Decks are draft chaff. I remember using a blue one once to teach someone how to play and I had like 2 Ancient Crabs in a 30 card deck. That player still plays by the way, despite the fact I kept yelling "ARG! CRAB BATTLE!" whenever my crabs did anything.
Putting aside that silly tangent and moving on to the matter of the cost, Welcome Decks are super cheap (for example, no real packaging and they all come in those little paper deck boxes) and are basically gifts from WotC to LGSs to help support them. WotC needs LGSs, so it is in their interest to provide demo decks to make it easier for LGSs to grow a community. The same cannot be said for big box stores, where the Planeswalker decks are primarily aimed at. Also, the Planeswalker decks come with 2 booster packs, which make up roughly half the cost if you value them at MSRP.
Vivien of the Arkbow just about does about the same role Regal does. By the time I'm ready to cast Regal Vivien will have enough counters for her ultimate ready to use next turn.
1. They can literally do both of these. There is nothing stopping them from creating a mostly functional deck with reasonable paths for improvement while also putting the exact same shiny foil planeswalker on the front of it along with that planeswalker's exact same search card and their same support creature. I haven't seen anyone asking for these decks to be tuned FNM ready decks from the start. There's nothing wrong with the deck containing it's share of not so great cards. As I've been saying, there should still be room for improvement in these decks. The problem is that the decks (historically) are almost completely those types of cards that are borderline useless anywhere but the kitchen table. This is why people don't like these decks. Because handing potential new players a bundle of cards that aren't going to serve them very well, and the company knows this, for a fairly substantial few to a lot of such potential new players, is simply scummy and we know WOTC can do better than this.
As far as I am aware, the decklists for GRN Planeswalker decks haven't been released yet so instead I'll pull one of the M19 ones:
I'm not going to argue there aren't some... questionable... inclusions (seriously, what is that singleton Sovereign's Bite doing in there) but by and large the deck isn't terrible. Obviously it could be made better but it's certainly not the worst deck I've ever seen. Hell, I think Demon of Catastrophes is going to be an actual Standard player once Kaladesh and friends rotate. Gravewaker is a card I didn't even know existed but it seems pretty sweet for EDH. Like, when I went to look these up I was expecting this deck to be a lot worse than it actually is, the way ya'll are talking about them. Without actually adding any new cards but only increasing the copies of cards already in the deck, I think I could scrape together an FNM playable Mono-black aggro deck. Will it beat Tier 1 decks? Probably not. But it would certainly be able to put up some wins. So I'm not really seeing the complaint that the deck doesn't give you a blueprint to make a decent deck.
2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.
You're right, it was more a shot at this line by scoed:
3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.
There is a significant difference between a person who has made a conscious effort to engage with the game, either by asking a friend to teach them to play or by seeking out a place to learn like an LGS, and a person who has maybe heard the name Magic: the Gathering but has never really given it a thought before seeing a product display at a big box store. Someone seeking out the game is already a win as far as WotC is concerned because they know the best way to learn is to have other people teach you, so the person that sought the game out is already most of the way toward being a player. Planeswalker decks are mostly a way to spark (bam, puns!) that initial engagement by making someone who otherwise wouldn't play the game stop, pick up the box and say "Hey, what's this? It looks interesting." That's what WotC is after here.
The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?
The Welcome Deck thing is mostly a personal hang up of mine. I basically never recommend new players buy anything without playing the game first. If I'm physically at my LGS, I've got time to sit down and play some Welcome Deck games and teach them the rules to see if they like it. No reason for me to suggest they spend a bunch of money just for them to end up not liking the game.
For what they are (free!) the Welcome Decks are fine, but for how much flak people give Planeswalker decks for being draft chaff... damn Welcome Decks are draft chaff. I remember using a blue one once to teach someone how to play and I had like 2 Ancient Crabs in a 30 card deck. That player still plays by the way, despite the fact I kept yelling "ARG! CRAB BATTLE!" whenever my crabs did anything.
Putting aside that silly tangent and moving on to the matter of the cost, Welcome Decks are super cheap (for example, no real packaging and they all come in those little paper deck boxes) and are basically gifts from WotC to LGSs to help support them. WotC needs LGSs, so it is in their interest to provide demo decks to make it easier for LGSs to grow a community. The same cannot be said for big box stores, where the Planeswalker decks are primarily aimed at. Also, the Planeswalker decks come with 2 booster packs, which make up roughly half the cost if you value them at MSRP.
Lets look at that deck you posted. Lets skip the rares and the plainwalker OK. I will concede that most of the time they are playable. In fact my issue isn't mostly with most of the cards themselves. It is how the decks are built. Seven cards costing 5 or more manna, zero ramp, only 10 cards costing two or less manna, you can't win with that curve. Lets actually break down that curve.
Cost/number
1/2
2/10 But two will not usually be able to be gainfully played on turn two do to lack of one drops.
3/7
4/8
5/5
6/1
7/1
Note there is zero ways to ramp, few way to regain lost tempo once behind, and very little in the way of card advantage. Some of the cards are notably off theme. Card quality issues aside these decks are extremely poorly built.
On top of this, these decks are USELESS to any not knowing how to play and not with anyone there to teach them. It does not come with an instruction book on how to play. The piece of scrape paper they put in is not enough of explanation on the rules to even began to play the game. This product will NOT help the people who just bought it to try the game without going beyond just buying a couple of decks and trying play them.
I am not crying the cards are draft chaff. My complaint is they are weaker then most draft decks because poor card on average quality parred with bad curve with cards horribly out of place make for a bad starter investment.
Look I am now saying these need to be competitive. In fact having case cards in them would be in fact a bad idea in my opinion. But is is really to much to ask to add a few more staple commons and commons every new player needs, keep the curve reasonable, and keep the cards on theme for the deck? I don't think so. That is my issue with plainwalker decks. I don't think they are doing new players any favors by forcing horrid deck design on top of a lot of under powered cards. They just aren't.
I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
Exactly, first thing I teach people on how to build a deck is to pick a strategy and build your deck to match. I don't care what strategy or how likely it is to take first, Magic isn't always about that. But decks need focus to function. This includes limited and causal decks.Walker decks lack this.
Second thing I teach is manna curve. Walker decks lack this as well. Even bad cards can win if they curve well. Look at the early sligh decks early in MTG history. Ironclaw Orcs Actually seen play back in the day as a curve filler at the pro tour. It doesn't get much worse than those things. But they fit the strategy of the deck and the curve needed. Walker decks as I have shown don't curve out. They are poor in making sure you have a meaningful play turns two though five.
It would cost Wizards nothing to fix walker decks. Add more staples at common and uncommon new players need. Why isn't there a play set of murders in the deck? It would be valuable to get newbies easy access to these cards, and cost Wizards nothing, and doesn't hurt LGS at all cards under a dollar don't make stores much after labor and everything. Build the decks with one strategy, not three or four like the example deck above. And lastly make sure the deck curves out. These decks shouldn't be decks that out power an opponent with case cards, but they should be able to capitalize if an opponent's deck trips out the gate. And most importantly they should curve out more often not.
For new players it is important they see examples of how a deck should work. These are not that. Walker decks are exactly the kind of decks that are the opposite of how to build a deck. Weaker cards, not clear strategy, no curve, no clear upgrades, and lacks proper instructions on how to play, how exactly are these decks helping new players? Well I two murder are better then none, and newbies always need lands. That is something, but come on they deserve better. And I am not talking printing a competitive deck, just one that is better than the free decks Wizards puts out. They are paying for these decks after all.
And yes I have seen worse decks, but the bar shouldn't be lets make decks on par with what the greenest MTG players could build. The bar needs to be let's show them how to build a deck by example and let them grow from there.
I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
So what you're saying is the deck is a sampling of the kinds of things Black does? Zombies, Vampires, draining life, sacrificing creatures for value, discard, etc? To me that sounds like a good introduction to what the color is all about, assuming you knew nothing about it beforehand.
The starters should be playable and upgradeable. A starter product shouldn't be weak, it should be simple to play and use. Imagine a new player going to the store with this. The company wants the new player to get destroyed so they become angry and buy more cards just so they can win? It really is pitiful when it comes to products that are precons with wizards most of the time.
Except players that go to FNM aren't a majority. Most people that play Magic do so casually at their own kitchen tables. I don't know about you, but I started playing Magic against my friend on my bedroom floor with a pile of cards that would have been laughed out of an FNM. I had like 8 Thorn Elementals because I thought it was awesome and didn't even know how the card worked. Didn't matter to me, I still had a blast thinking Llanowar Elves let you search a Forest out of your deck.
These decks are for those players. They don't care if a card is competitively viable. They just want to play with cards they think are sweet, like for instance... special Planeswalker cards.
That's how I started, too. However, the way the game has changed from my experience is the point of introduction to the game. A lot of people come to Open house and then come to FNM / standard showdown as their way to enter now, usually with a friend. When your most dangerous opponent is your trusted friend, it doesn't matter what the power level is. When it's a fight with a stranger, there is no barometer to go by except what is legal at the tournament. My preference is to help new players get the rules down with the open house decks, then teach them deck building through limited with a set of cards from the current set. From that, I help them figure out what they like playing and then work on getting them started with a good constructed deck, usually building out from the limited deck. Planeswalker decks are okay for collecting, but I wouldn't say they are great for really playing the game.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
With Planeswalker decks, I don't understand the reason why the "strategy guide" doesn't contain a decklist, and the strategy is a couple of sentences at best, compared to the strategy insert of the theme decks, which contained a deck list, a full strategy on how to play the deck, and a little storyline blurb, in less paper surface area compared to Planeswalker decks.
I'd say bring back theme decks, and have 4 per set, like it used to be, unless it is a core set, in which there should be 5 per set, one of each color.
At least with theme decks and intro packs, I can tell you what the strategy behind the deck is. Not so with Planeswalker decks. I don't even know what Teferi's Planeswalker deck strategy is. Historic? All I see is the Planeswalker being shoehorned in the deck, rather than building a deck based on a theme.
I know the 4 themes for the Mirrodin theme decks were Affinity for Artifacts, Equipment, Artifact Destruction, and Sacrifice Artifacts, or the Scars of Mirrodin Intro Pack themes, which is Myrs, Metalcraft, Proliferate, Artifact Destruction, and Infect.
Initially Planeswalker decks had themes, like the Kaladesh ones, which is Vehicles for one of them, and Energy for the other, but lately, it is difficult to find out what the theme is for each of the decks. At least with theme decks, you tried to win by using the theme of the deck, like equipment, or flashback, or whatever the theme was. With Planeswalker decks, you'd try to win by getting the Planeswalker out, which takes away the focus of the set's specific themes. Look at the Planeswalker Deck's names, like Chandra Planeswalker Deck, compared to names like Waking Nightmares, or Grave Power, or Reality Fracture.
Planeswalker decks were a success because it was better than what we had in intro packs. What should have happened was that theme decks should have never became intro packs in the first place. Set associated precons should teach new players what the set is all about. With the Planeswalker being shoehorned in, I feel that the Planeswalker deck planeswalker are a waste of design and developmental resources. They just had to make a crappy Planeswalker just for the Planeswalker deck. I remember we had duel decks with planeswalkers in them. That should have been the way for newer players to get their hands on planeswalkers and get to know how to use them, although they wouldn't be standard legal upon release. The focus on the set associated precons should be on what the set is all about, not the Planeswalker.
When they changed intro packs into Planeswalker decks, I thought it was one of the stupidest decisions WOTC ever made, but since people liked Planeswalker decks, I can't do anything about it, but then again, they probably haven't been playing when theme decks were a thing.
I agree that the decks suffer from a lack of cohesion. The Liliana deck that was mentioned is half sacrifice and half Zombie-tribal, with sprinklings of Vampires. Pick a direction and go for it - either Zombie Tribal, sacrifice and graveyard shenanigans, or drain and gain. If these things WERE to overlap (for example, a zombie that used life as a resource for an effect), it would make sense for the strategies to be married to some extent.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
So what you're saying is the deck is a sampling of the kinds of things Black does? Zombies, Vampires, draining life, sacrificing creatures for value, discard, etc? To me that sounds like a good introduction to what the color is all about, assuming you knew nothing about it beforehand.
A good introduction to what the color is about, a bad introduction on how the game is actually played.
Take Liliana's deck. It's got heavy zombie, sacrifice, and reanimator themes in it. Imagine trying to play that deck against someone who has a playset of Remorseful Cleric and Take Vengeance, in addition to probably having access to another color, which could add further control or tempo elements to the deck. The planeswalker decks are flavorful, but they're not going to be able to scrape a win, not outside the circle of Planeswalker deck matchups.
If you were teaching someone to play golf, for example, you would not tell someone to play however they want, and sit back with a smile as they attempted to actually play through by picking up each of their clubs in turn and flinging them at the golf ball in order to make it move closer to the hole. In the same way, you do not give new players a deck with vanilla creatures and Skeleton Archers and other such rubbish - you give them a deck that has a strong, repetitive theme that makes for an easy deck to play. Here's cards that a Liliana deck should run:
Death Baron
Doomed Dissenter
Diregraf Ghoul
Graveyard Marshal
Gravedigger
Blood Divination
Macabre Waltz
Murder
Probably an Open the Graves or two.
Demonic Vigor and/or Abnormal Endurance.
Discard is a control strategy. Zombies are an aggro strategy. There can be overlap (if you make it a reanimation deck and there's a high cost finisher you can bring back to the field) but it's rare.
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2. I literally never said that's what they should do but it's funny that you mention that because the majority of these decks actually are boring vanillas and french vanillas with a couple of planeswalker support cards.
3. This feels like a flawed statement. It isn't a stretch or unreasonable assumption to suppose that there is a lot of overlap between people who don't know much about Magic but are also trying to learn how to play. Those two things are literal requirements towards being someone who is beginning to be interested in something new. Not withstanding the fact that hedging your marketing bets almost entirely on someone happening to see one of your products in a supermarket when your actual marketing towards anyone not already in the game is nearly abysmal is pretty silly, refer to my first point on how making your product look exciting and enticing and actually delivering a rewarding play experience with a workable deck aren't at all mutually exclusive.
The bit about Welcome Decks is pretty telling, honestly. Players who are looking for a gateway into Magic are the players who are most likely to buy a planeswalker deck and these decks are basically all they have to go for because WOTC doesn't have any other beginner's product for someone trying to learn the game. Except Welcome Decks. Which are only available at an LGS but more importantly are free. And you're right Welcome Decks are full of way more workable cards than Planeswalker decks. When you mentioned them I went to look for one of mine and found my white one from Magic Origins. This thing had Grasp of the Hieromancer, Aegis Angel and Serra Angel in it. These aren't going to be taking tables by storm or breaking formats but they're decent cards. Grasp and Aegis Angel are generally decent cards and to this day Serra Angel wouldn't be the worst card for a new player to drop because it's still simply an okay card for its cmc. Again, no one is saying that some new hot standard card should be in these. At least I'm not. The bad part about this is, Welcome Decks are free. Planeswalker decks are $15. Two booter packs aside, it costs WOTC the same amount to print somewhat decent cards that players could potentially use later and grow in the game with as it does to print jank. So why are the free decks just as good if not better for new players, in your own words more or less, as the $15 decks?
-Chandra Nalaar
And what if the new player never intended to become competitive in the first place? What if they'd actually enjoy playing these cards? The moment Scoed said "playability", the post lost credibility, because that's just another sign you're not seeing these products through the proper lens. You're still judging them by "playability" rather than, I don't know, casual fun factor? Comprehension? Accessibility? And what if they end up hating the cards you do encourage them to play? For that matter, what cards or products are you currently encouraging them to play? What if they don't enjoy playing competitively, and just want to play casual? What if they end up picking the decks up anyway out of curiosity? And if you're concerned about them wasting money, why not try teaching them by letting them play with cards from your collection? Maybe build some decks out of cards you aren't currently using, if any? That way, they can learn for free!
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
1 Liliana, the Necromancer
Creature (21)
2 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Demon of Catastrophes
1 Gravewaker
1 Gravedigger
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Skeleton Archer
2 Skymarch Bloodletter
2 Vampire Sovereign
2 Walking Corpse
1 Meteor Golem
3 Arisen Gorgon
4 Tattered Mummy
2 Liliana's Spoils
2 Blood Divination
2 Lich's Caress
1 Sovereign's Bite
Instant (5)
2 Abnormal Endurance
2 Murder
1 Strangling Spores
26 Swamp
You're right, it was more a shot at this line by scoed:
There is a significant difference between a person who has made a conscious effort to engage with the game, either by asking a friend to teach them to play or by seeking out a place to learn like an LGS, and a person who has maybe heard the name Magic: the Gathering but has never really given it a thought before seeing a product display at a big box store. Someone seeking out the game is already a win as far as WotC is concerned because they know the best way to learn is to have other people teach you, so the person that sought the game out is already most of the way toward being a player. Planeswalker decks are mostly a way to spark (bam, puns!) that initial engagement by making someone who otherwise wouldn't play the game stop, pick up the box and say "Hey, what's this? It looks interesting." That's what WotC is after here.
The Welcome Deck thing is mostly a personal hang up of mine. I basically never recommend new players buy anything without playing the game first. If I'm physically at my LGS, I've got time to sit down and play some Welcome Deck games and teach them the rules to see if they like it. No reason for me to suggest they spend a bunch of money just for them to end up not liking the game.
For what they are (free!) the Welcome Decks are fine, but for how much flak people give Planeswalker decks for being draft chaff... damn Welcome Decks are draft chaff. I remember using a blue one once to teach someone how to play and I had like 2 Ancient Crabs in a 30 card deck. That player still plays by the way, despite the fact I kept yelling "ARG! CRAB BATTLE!" whenever my crabs did anything.
Putting aside that silly tangent and moving on to the matter of the cost, Welcome Decks are super cheap (for example, no real packaging and they all come in those little paper deck boxes) and are basically gifts from WotC to LGSs to help support them. WotC needs LGSs, so it is in their interest to provide demo decks to make it easier for LGSs to grow a community. The same cannot be said for big box stores, where the Planeswalker decks are primarily aimed at. Also, the Planeswalker decks come with 2 booster packs, which make up roughly half the cost if you value them at MSRP.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Cost/number
1/2
2/10 But two will not usually be able to be gainfully played on turn two do to lack of one drops.
3/7
4/8
5/5
6/1
7/1
Note there is zero ways to ramp, few way to regain lost tempo once behind, and very little in the way of card advantage. Some of the cards are notably off theme. Card quality issues aside these decks are extremely poorly built.
On top of this, these decks are USELESS to any not knowing how to play and not with anyone there to teach them. It does not come with an instruction book on how to play. The piece of scrape paper they put in is not enough of explanation on the rules to even began to play the game. This product will NOT help the people who just bought it to try the game without going beyond just buying a couple of decks and trying play them.
I am not crying the cards are draft chaff. My complaint is they are weaker then most draft decks because poor card on average quality parred with bad curve with cards horribly out of place make for a bad starter investment.
Look I am now saying these need to be competitive. In fact having case cards in them would be in fact a bad idea in my opinion. But is is really to much to ask to add a few more staple commons and commons every new player needs, keep the curve reasonable, and keep the cards on theme for the deck? I don't think so. That is my issue with plainwalker decks. I don't think they are doing new players any favors by forcing horrid deck design on top of a lot of under powered cards. They just aren't.
You've heard how oil and water don't mix? Neither do distinct, separate strategies in a deck. That's what side decks are for - to make good the shortcomings of your deck after you play with it.
Second thing I teach is manna curve. Walker decks lack this as well. Even bad cards can win if they curve well. Look at the early sligh decks early in MTG history. Ironclaw Orcs Actually seen play back in the day as a curve filler at the pro tour. It doesn't get much worse than those things. But they fit the strategy of the deck and the curve needed. Walker decks as I have shown don't curve out. They are poor in making sure you have a meaningful play turns two though five.
It would cost Wizards nothing to fix walker decks. Add more staples at common and uncommon new players need. Why isn't there a play set of murders in the deck? It would be valuable to get newbies easy access to these cards, and cost Wizards nothing, and doesn't hurt LGS at all cards under a dollar don't make stores much after labor and everything. Build the decks with one strategy, not three or four like the example deck above. And lastly make sure the deck curves out. These decks shouldn't be decks that out power an opponent with case cards, but they should be able to capitalize if an opponent's deck trips out the gate. And most importantly they should curve out more often not.
For new players it is important they see examples of how a deck should work. These are not that. Walker decks are exactly the kind of decks that are the opposite of how to build a deck. Weaker cards, not clear strategy, no curve, no clear upgrades, and lacks proper instructions on how to play, how exactly are these decks helping new players? Well I two murder are better then none, and newbies always need lands. That is something, but come on they deserve better. And I am not talking printing a competitive deck, just one that is better than the free decks Wizards puts out. They are paying for these decks after all.
And yes I have seen worse decks, but the bar shouldn't be lets make decks on par with what the greenest MTG players could build. The bar needs to be let's show them how to build a deck by example and let them grow from there.
That's how I started, too. However, the way the game has changed from my experience is the point of introduction to the game. A lot of people come to Open house and then come to FNM / standard showdown as their way to enter now, usually with a friend. When your most dangerous opponent is your trusted friend, it doesn't matter what the power level is. When it's a fight with a stranger, there is no barometer to go by except what is legal at the tournament. My preference is to help new players get the rules down with the open house decks, then teach them deck building through limited with a set of cards from the current set. From that, I help them figure out what they like playing and then work on getting them started with a good constructed deck, usually building out from the limited deck. Planeswalker decks are okay for collecting, but I wouldn't say they are great for really playing the game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'd say bring back theme decks, and have 4 per set, like it used to be, unless it is a core set, in which there should be 5 per set, one of each color.
At least with theme decks and intro packs, I can tell you what the strategy behind the deck is. Not so with Planeswalker decks. I don't even know what Teferi's Planeswalker deck strategy is. Historic? All I see is the Planeswalker being shoehorned in the deck, rather than building a deck based on a theme.
I know the 4 themes for the Mirrodin theme decks were Affinity for Artifacts, Equipment, Artifact Destruction, and Sacrifice Artifacts, or the Scars of Mirrodin Intro Pack themes, which is Myrs, Metalcraft, Proliferate, Artifact Destruction, and Infect.
Initially Planeswalker decks had themes, like the Kaladesh ones, which is Vehicles for one of them, and Energy for the other, but lately, it is difficult to find out what the theme is for each of the decks. At least with theme decks, you tried to win by using the theme of the deck, like equipment, or flashback, or whatever the theme was. With Planeswalker decks, you'd try to win by getting the Planeswalker out, which takes away the focus of the set's specific themes. Look at the Planeswalker Deck's names, like Chandra Planeswalker Deck, compared to names like Waking Nightmares, or Grave Power, or Reality Fracture.
Planeswalker decks were a success because it was better than what we had in intro packs. What should have happened was that theme decks should have never became intro packs in the first place. Set associated precons should teach new players what the set is all about. With the Planeswalker being shoehorned in, I feel that the Planeswalker deck planeswalker are a waste of design and developmental resources. They just had to make a crappy Planeswalker just for the Planeswalker deck. I remember we had duel decks with planeswalkers in them. That should have been the way for newer players to get their hands on planeswalkers and get to know how to use them, although they wouldn't be standard legal upon release. The focus on the set associated precons should be on what the set is all about, not the Planeswalker.
When they changed intro packs into Planeswalker decks, I thought it was one of the stupidest decisions WOTC ever made, but since people liked Planeswalker decks, I can't do anything about it, but then again, they probably haven't been playing when theme decks were a thing.
A good introduction to what the color is about, a bad introduction on how the game is actually played.
Take Liliana's deck. It's got heavy zombie, sacrifice, and reanimator themes in it. Imagine trying to play that deck against someone who has a playset of Remorseful Cleric and Take Vengeance, in addition to probably having access to another color, which could add further control or tempo elements to the deck. The planeswalker decks are flavorful, but they're not going to be able to scrape a win, not outside the circle of Planeswalker deck matchups.
If you were teaching someone to play golf, for example, you would not tell someone to play however they want, and sit back with a smile as they attempted to actually play through by picking up each of their clubs in turn and flinging them at the golf ball in order to make it move closer to the hole. In the same way, you do not give new players a deck with vanilla creatures and Skeleton Archers and other such rubbish - you give them a deck that has a strong, repetitive theme that makes for an easy deck to play. Here's cards that a Liliana deck should run:
Death Baron
Doomed Dissenter
Diregraf Ghoul
Graveyard Marshal
Gravedigger
Blood Divination
Macabre Waltz
Murder
Probably an Open the Graves or two.
Demonic Vigor and/or Abnormal Endurance.
Discard is a control strategy. Zombies are an aggro strategy. There can be overlap (if you make it a reanimation deck and there's a high cost finisher you can bring back to the field) but it's rare.