I don't mind that they're making Rakdos into the Timmy guild this time. Rakdos v.1 (hellbent) was pretty Johnny, and Rakdos v.2 (unleash) was definitely Spike. So, kind of a nice trilogy, in fact.
Having Mr. Rakdos be a big, dumb coin flip card that goes boom is a very Timmy thing. I'm OK with all that.
But why does this card operate on the variable of creature types, instead of, like... almost anything else? Rakdos as a guild has never cared about tribal anything, as far as I can remember. I would have liked to see a different build-around. CMC? Power? Tapped/untapped? Any of those would have felt more "Rakdos". So, I rather dislike this card because it just doesn't feel like it plays with the guild. Had it been another B/R Demon in another set... sure.
Also happens in Innistrad when they collect the "monster" creature types: Victim of Night
Its bad as the text is noisy , but what else do you want to do, as they have creature types that are specific.
Its like they named "human" and "humanoid" creature types and spelled them all out (like dwarfs, elves, orcs, etc.).
There is nothing generic about coin flipping on a constructed playable body - that is a lazy criticism imho. On average he's going to come in and eat half your opponents creatures, less for you if you build properly. He will never sac himself.
It's not like BR has zero tools to handle what's left over...
I think this will show up. It's a great effect and recurring this off eldest reborn (super doable) is going to absolutely back breaking a lot of the time.
Worst case scenario if I lose every flip I get a 6/6 flying trample for 6. That's fine. even if he eats one dude he is doing more than his cmc would suggest. ravenous chupacabra is 2 mana less for a 2/2 body. Granted it's targeted removal - but it's one shot on a mediocre body. Chupa is plenty playable and I think this will be too.
This rakdos is really just a 6/6 flyer for 4RB , and it kills randomly stuff.
Thats nothing new, nothing special, its just a generic big creature.
That does in no way mean its a "bad" card to play, its far from that, as its an easy to splash card for any deck in limited and its also just value to play in constructed (while the "random" really really becomes annoying as hell in any reasonable tournament setting, when your win/lose depends on a coinflip, thats just terrible, and for that alone i deeply hate this card and design space).
Compared to the 2nd iteration of Rakdos, Lord of Riots, this is incredible boring.
At least the Riots Rakdos asked for actual deep commitment to Rakdos in its manacost. Even the mechanic was basically Spectacle and delivered a very unique effect to make everything almost free to play , while providing a very undercosted huge body.
Simply put, it did something "special", rather than a generic flyer that just kills stuff randomly and might be a complete party pooper, when he destroys nothing and you just lose because of it.
"random" really really becomes annoying as hell in any reasonable tournament setting, when your win/lose depends on a coinflip, thats just terrible, and for that alone i deeply hate this card and design space.
...we play a game where we shuffle our decks. In any given game, win or lose at any given instant can be largely tied to the luck of the draw. It's not like we're playing chess here. Throughout every game, chance influences outcome.
As someone who has been squarely set as their favorite guild being Rakdos since the very first set we got guilds, I can say that this card is pretty disappointing.
Thankfully, Judith, the Scourge Diva is super good because this Rakdos goes in the handicap bag. His stats are mediocre in Commander and Standard, while Modern and Eternal have much better demons to cheat in.
Demon, Devil, and Imp tribal? Rakdos 3 just became a fine contender for the face card of the Hellish half of my custom "Heavenly vs. Hellish" duel decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
...we play a game where we shuffle our decks. In any given game, win or lose at any given instant can be largely tied to the luck of the draw. It's not like we're playing chess here. Throughout every game, chance influences outcome.
Its a whole different kind of random.
If you make a sound decision what to play from your hand, you know what will happen, thats why you make the decision to play the card in the first place.
Drawing cards is random, but that doesnt change any decision you make, you make your decisions based on what you draw.
If a card has a random effect when played, its truely just random, it either wins or loses, you cant do anything to influence that outcome, its just literally a coinflip. Thats the absolute nightmare scenario for any SPIKE player , as it has absolutely nothing to do with Skill at all, its just the worst form of randomness you can add to a game that wants to mark itself as any form of skill-based.
----
This card will just randomly decide games in Limited, and for that alone i already hate it to the bones.
Demon, Devil, and Imp tribal? Rakdos 3 just became a fine contender for the face card of the Hellish half of my custom "Heavenly vs. Hellish" duel decks.
As someone who has been squarely set as their favorite guild being Rakdos since the very first set we got guilds, I can say that this card is pretty disappointing.
Thankfully, Judith, the Scourge Diva is super good because this Rakdos goes in the handicap bag. His stats are mediocre in Commander and Standard, while Modern and Eternal have much better demons to cheat in.
Even then, I don't really care much for Olivia, Mogis or Grenzo. Xantcha is good but I don't want to play that deck, it looks toxic to healthy playgroups. But ooooh Judy. Thank you wizards for finally giving me something to work with. I really wish she could have been slightly less narrow. Extending it to triggering when nontokens your opponents control die too or triggering for when token creatures you control die too would have been really nice. Ideally id say just lose the pump and give us a wider ability but ill take her as is. Probably the best rakdos commander to date or at least a contender.
I don't particularly like commanders whose ability is a one-off ETB. All my commanders have an ongoing or recurring ability or effect. I was waiting for this particular spoiler, because I have a soft spot for what the Rakdos colors represent. I didn't expect to dethrone Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder any time soon as my favorite legend, and it seems I haven't yet. This was the set's only hope to do such.
Considering that Doom Whisperer costs 5 with no off-color mana, and has a worthwhile ability already, the trigger you're getting with Rakdos comes with a significant cost. I guess there are games where your opponent has a big board and this will reliably generate value, but I can't imagine it being better than the Whisperer in general, nor wanting to run this card for the corner case where I'm specifically about to lose to a big board *and* my opponent lets me cast a giant fatty *and* I have good luck with the coin flips.
Doom Whisperer already sees limited play, and Rakdos is much worse.
...we play a game where we shuffle our decks. In any given game, win or lose at any given instant can be largely tied to the luck of the draw. It's not like we're playing chess here. Throughout every game, chance influences outcome.
Its a whole different kind of random.
If you make a sound decision what to play from your hand, you know what will happen, thats why you make the decision to play the card in the first place.
Drawing cards is random, but that doesnt change any decision you make, you make your decisions based on what you draw.
If a card has a random effect when played, its truely just random, it either wins or loses, you cant do anything to influence that outcome, its just literally a coinflip. Thats the absolute nightmare scenario for any SPIKE player , as it has absolutely nothing to do with Skill at all, its just the worst form of randomness you can add to a game that wants to mark itself as any form of skill-based.
----
This card will just randomly decide games in Limited, and for that alone i already hate it to the bones.
Going to disagree with this. Just like good plays that help you try to manipulate statistics to get the cards you need from your deck, this card rewards you for stacking the odds in your favor. If you do, in fact, have all demons, devils, and imps out, you know for sure your side of the board is safe. The other side of the board, each and every non-demon, non-devil, non-imp has a flat 50-50 chance of dropping dead on the spot. So maximize those odds. Opponent has one creature? Odds are even that they lose their only creature or lose nothing. They have two? Odds are, half their creatures die. And so on.
Flipping coins for X number of permanents to kill them can, in fact, reward play in precisely the same way card filtering and the like, or stacking your deck with certain numbers of cards, etc, do. It's all about stacking the statistical odds in your favor. Nothing more, nothing less. Might you gain nothing extra? Sure. Just like you can readily, and often do, gain nothing when you play a card that manipulates the odds of drawing what you need. The moment the opponent has more than one non-hell-tribal creatures out, odds are, you will get some value. If even ONE creature dies on the opposing side of the board, Rakdos just became at least a 2-for-1 big threat on the board.
Just like good plays that help you try to manipulate statistics to get the cards you need from your deck, this card rewards you for stacking the odds in your favor.
The point is, the card doesnt really reward you, it actively PUNISHES you for not playing with its gimmick and even if you do everything you can, its still a 50/50 coinflip to either do NOTHING or destroy a creature.
Its just every time a feel bad moment, for either you or the opponent, this card has no winner, it makes everything and everyone miserable (and if that was the goal to designing this card, congrats).
----
Every magic card has the inherent randomness of the library, there is nothing to remove that.
Adding MORE randomness to a card, just for the sake of randomness is not good.
There is no denial that a subset of players enjoys adding as many randomness to the game as possible. The more random the better for them.
But these players rarely if ever care for winning at all, you dont want that kind of randomness if you want to expect the game to have a skill involved.
----
Anyway, its the kind of card that will always tilt the playerbase either to absolutely HATE it, or just embrace the randomness of it.
And it will lead to the kind of frustrating moments that make players totally tilt at a table, thats simply not a good experience at all.
i know rakdos is not like S tier but definately underrating easily
i know its not the best card but its likely better than you think
first of this is the closet we have gotten to a demon tribal general since rakdos 1.0 stinks since you have to sac everything on attack and nobody can resist throwing in dragons and angels in kaalia
second you can actually kill progenius and true-name nemesis with him since it doesn't target not to mention krark's thumb can make it 25/75 instead so easier to manipulate the board
its not like S tier good but its definately not bad in edh
Just like good plays that help you try to manipulate statistics to get the cards you need from your deck, this card rewards you for stacking the odds in your favor.
The point is, the card doesnt really reward you, it actively PUNISHES you for not playing with its gimmick and even if you do everything you can, its still a 50/50 coinflip to either do NOTHING or destroy a creature.
It doesn't punish you for its "gimmick". It straight up rewards you for playing a tribal deck. There are even more extreme versions of this kind of reward, that do things like sweep the board of creatures not of a tribe. This is a similar effect. It's a tribal card that statistically rewards you for a certain board state and playing... a tribal deck. A very common type of deck to put cards in to gain rewards for being tribal. Cards that are, by and large, sufficiently inferior to not be worth consideration outside of a tribal deck. This is the nature of tribal cards. Always has been, always will be.
Its just every time a feel bad moment, for either you or the opponent, this card has no winner, it makes everything and everyone miserable (and if that was the goal to designing this card, congrats).
See, here is where lines are crossed. It might very well make you feel bad, and you can absolutely speak for yourself, regarding your own thoughts and feelings about such things. You cannot, however, simply assert that an effect like this blanket makes everyone miserable; that is projection, plain and simple. Clearly, there is a solid enough subset of an audience for random element cards that can potentially give higher than normal rewards with said random element in exchange for potentially less value, and that rewards you more the better you stack the odds in your favor, for WotC to consistently make cards like this, and for people to regularly express joy at their very existence.
And there is also a challenge, and a skill level, associated with successfully using a card with fixed statistical odds like this as heavily into your favor as possible. For example, a Hell-tribal Commander deck that plays this might very well kill huge numbers of creatures over the course of a game, as the odds get stacked in your favor periodically, and I would wager very good money there are plenty of people who would get a kick out of timing this version of Rakdos to maximize the odds they destroy a large number of creatures on the board.
Anyway, its the kind of card that will always tilt the playerbase either to absolutely HATE it, or just embrace the randomness of it.
And it will lead to the kind of frustrating moments that make players totally tilt at a table, thats simply not a good experience at all.
And this, too, is more projecting than anything else. Just because you, personally (and clearly stated), cannot stand cards with this kind of random element, does not, in fact, always tilt the playerbase, nor make for a bad play experience. It makes for a bad play experience for you. And you are the only person you can in actuality speak for regarding this.
It doesn't punish you for its "gimmick". It straight up rewards you for playing a tribal deck. There are even more extreme versions of this kind of reward, that do things like sweep the board of creatures not of a tribe. This is a similar effect. It's a tribal card that statistically rewards you for a certain board state and playing... a tribal deck. A very common type of deck to put cards in to gain rewards for being tribal. Cards that are, by and large, sufficiently inferior to not be worth consideration outside of a tribal deck. This is the nature of tribal cards. Always has been, always will be.
Read exactly what i said.
No matter what, you at best get a 50/50 coinflip to destroy a creature.
If that is your "reward" then its terrible, thats not a reward at all.
If this kills your creature and non of theirs, its downright terrible, and no matter what, thats going to happen, as you simply will not have 100% of the creature types it asks for in Limited.
See, here is where lines are crossed. It might very well make you feel bad, and you can absolutely speak for yourself, regarding your own thoughts and feelings about such things. You cannot, however, simply assert that an effect like this blanket makes everyone miserable; that is projection, plain and simple. Clearly, there is a solid enough subset of an audience for random element cards that can potentially give higher than normal rewards with said random element in exchange for potentially less value, and that rewards you more the better you stack the odds in your favor, for WotC to consistently make cards like this, and for people to regularly express joy at their very existence.
Exactly, everyone has some cards they like. Thats exactly why they exist, and thats exactly why i claim it will divide the playerbase in either hating this card to the bones, or they enjoy the randomness of cards occasionally doing nothing simply because of randomness.
And there is also a challenge, and a skill level, associated with successfully using a card with fixed statistical odds like this as heavily into your favor as possible. For example, a Hell-tribal Commander deck that plays this might very well kill huge numbers of creatures over the course of a game, as the odds get stacked in your favor periodically, and I would wager very good money there are plenty of people who would get a kick out of timing this version of Rakdos to maximize the odds they destroy a large number of creatures on the board.
You cant change the fact its a coinflip (outside of very specific flip again cards obviously).
Its a random effect, if people like that, good, i just explained why people absolutely despite this kind of randomness that is that swingy and easily decides the outcome of a game by a bunch of coinflips and no proper decision making or skill involved at all (you can only make it worse for yourself by making fundamentally bad choices).
And this, too, is more projecting than anything else. Just because you, personally (and clearly stated), cannot stand cards with this kind of random element, does not, in fact, always tilt the playerbase, nor make for a bad play experience. It makes for a bad play experience for you. And you are the only person you can in actuality speak for regarding this.
Its equally just you projecting, so neither can claim to have any better position.
I really really hate if people claim to talk "in fact" when they are just talking of their very own subjective opinion.
Your opinion is not a fact, its just your opinion.
And if our little dialog isnt the very best PROOF that this card is "in fact" tilting the playerbase, then what is ?
I want to think this card will be sweet, but with my luck I would lose most flips... and by most flips I mean most of like 50 flips among the average number of creatures in our commander games.
Demon, Devil, and Imp tribal? Rakdos 3 just became a fine contender for the face card of the Hellish half of my custom "Heavenly vs. Hellish" duel decks.
Lyra Dawnbringer the other half?
Would be tempting, as the Heavenly deck would sensibly have a lot of Angels, but I would also have Clerics and Knights in there, so Archangel of Thune or Angel of Serenity would probably work better. In Serenity's case, bonus points for being on the same plane as Rakdos. Since most of the Clerics and Knights would be Human, Angelic Overseer could also work.
Meanwhile the Hellish deck would be chock full of Demons and Devils, plus maybe the odd Imp, though it too should have a few Clerics to represent cultists.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It doesn't punish you for its "gimmick". It straight up rewards you for playing a tribal deck. There are even more extreme versions of this kind of reward, that do things like sweep the board of creatures not of a tribe. This is a similar effect. It's a tribal card that statistically rewards you for a certain board state and playing... a tribal deck. A very common type of deck to put cards in to gain rewards for being tribal. Cards that are, by and large, sufficiently inferior to not be worth consideration outside of a tribal deck. This is the nature of tribal cards. Always has been, always will be.
Read exactly what i said.
No matter what, you at best get a 50/50 coinflip to destroy a creature.
If that is your "reward" then its terrible, thats not a reward at all.
If this kills your creature and non of theirs, its downright terrible, and no matter what, thats going to happen, as you simply will not have 100% of the creature types it asks for in Limited.
Oh? Did the goalpost get moved to talking about limited? Who knew?
And yes, I understood what you meant and mistyped that it doesn't really punish you for not playing its gimmick, any more than any other tribal effect that punishes non-tribal cards are actually punishing you for not playing tribal. Any more than playing a card like Ritual of Soot is actually punishing you for having small creatures out, or Wrath of God is punishing you for having creatures out at all. When a card is made with an explicitly tribal effect, that is a strong signal that card is intended to go into a tribal deck. And will likely be subpar at best outside of a tribal deck, so play it in a tribal deck. A card having some sort of global effect that leaves out specific subsets of cards does not a punishing card make. It's intentionally designed to reward you for sticking with the correct subset of cards, therefore like Wrath of God, you really shouldn't be placing it in decks where it hurts you more than it hurts the opponent. *** is rewarding you for smart and streamlined, focused deck construction. Just like Rakdos.
As for "at best"? At best, this version of Rakdos is a 6-drop, 6/6 flying trampler that kills every single solitary creature you don't control on the board at once. At worst, this is a 6-drop, 6/6 flying trampler that kills every creature you control other than Rakdos. Those are the absolute best and worst possible outcomes of playing this version of Rakdos. If you are playing a Hell-tribal deck, the latter is nigh impossible. You've stacked the odds much more heavily in your favor. Now, at best, Rakdos is a 6/6 flying trampler that sweeps the opponent's creatures all board, and at worst it's merely a 6/6 flying trampler.
Same reason a card like Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep, that bounces every non-sea-creature (kraken, octopus, etc) to their controllers' hand, is at best going to bounce your opponent's board and leave yours alone, and at worst bounce your board (other than Slinn) and leave your opponent's alone. But if you're playing a sea-creature-tribal deck, or a deck with only a handful of large threats Slinn doesn't effect (so not "really" tribal by most standard), voila. You've just radically changed the odds in a way the designers quite likely wished to see as an interaction and deck construction choice, such that it can't bounce one of your creatures at all, so at best it "just" bounces your opponent's side of the board, and not yours, and at worst it "just" bounces however many non-sea-creatures your opponent has out. Skinn is not, however, truly punishing you for playing non-sea-creatures. Its very design is signaling to you what kind of deck can best maximize its potentially high reward effect, and which decks bring with it potentially high risk to as well.
Such is the nature of potential high reward effects, especially tribal-affiliated ones.
That each non-Hellish creature has a 50/50 chance of surviving is a random element, Indeed. Just like the five cards you draw with Fact or Fiction is a random element, and the best you can do is try to stack the odds of getting the outcome you want as heavily in your favor as possible with FoF. Doesn't in any way, shape, or form remove the extra random element FoF introduces into its effect. And yet, FoF is a stellar card that has seen a great deal of play, due to its ability to stack the random elements it introduces in your favor.
See, here is where lines are crossed. It might very well make you feel bad, and you can absolutely speak for yourself, regarding your own thoughts and feelings about such things. You cannot, however, simply assert that an effect like this blanket makes everyone miserable; that is projection, plain and simple. Clearly, there is a solid enough subset of an audience for random element cards that can potentially give higher than normal rewards with said random element in exchange for potentially less value, and that rewards you more the better you stack the odds in your favor, for WotC to consistently make cards like this, and for people to regularly express joy at their very existence.
Exactly, everyone has some cards they like. Thats exactly why they exist, and thats exactly why i claim it will divide the playerbase in either hating this card to the bones, or they enjoy the randomness of cards occasionally doing nothing simply because of randomness.
Except... you keep speaking for the entire community, or large swathes of it at a minimum, which was my point. Speak for yourself, not for the entire or much of the player base, and you'll be discussing something that isn't both hyperbole and inserting your thoughts into the thoughts of others. Or making huge blanket claims that a card with a coin flipping element will become split, with a false dichotomy of either hating it to their bones or enjoying the randomness. In the past, has this happened to the playerbase? Not speaking for yourself, or personal anecdotes of people you play with. Have previous coin flipping cards had the community either loathe or love said card? Or have some unknown number hated it, some unknown number love it, and the majority mostly just not express an opinion or seem to care in any way, with the many previous coin-flipping cards causing little to no waves either negatively or positively?
And there is also a challenge, and a skill level, associated with successfully using a card with fixed statistical odds like this as heavily into your favor as possible. For example, a Hell-tribal Commander deck that plays this might very well kill huge numbers of creatures over the course of a game, as the odds get stacked in your favor periodically, and I would wager very good money there are plenty of people who would get a kick out of timing this version of Rakdos to maximize the odds they destroy a large number of creatures on the board.
You cant change the fact its a coinflip (outside of very specific flip again cards obviously).
Its a random effect, if people like that, good, i just explained why people absolutely despite this kind of randomness.
Yes, you globally spoke for many people who aren't you, when all you can relevantly discuss without actual data is that you despise this effect. Literally all you needed to do was state that you despise this level of randomness, and leave it at that, without speaking for anyone else. Let others, then, join in expressing support for your opinion, or opposition.
And this, too, is more projecting than anything else. Just because you, personally (and clearly stated), cannot stand cards with this kind of random element, does not, in fact, always tilt the playerbase, nor make for a bad play experience. It makes for a bad play experience for you. And you are the only person you can in actuality speak for regarding this.
Its equally just you projecting, so neither can claim to have any better position.
I really really hate if people claim to talk "in fact" when they are just talking of their very own subjective opinion.
Your opinion is not a fact, its just your opinion.
And if our little dialog isnt the very best PROOF that this card is "in fact" tilt the playerbase, then what is ?
How am I projecting, exactly? There are people in this very thread who demonstrably expressed joy and excitement at this card, and its random element. I am not one of those people (such effects can be amusing, and interesting a challenge to build around casually, but not generally my personal cup of tea to play with--but playing against them doesn't bother me in the least, either). I am not speaking for those people. Pointing out nothing more than such people exist is not speaking for anyone else. Those very people existing is directly contrary to your assertion that this "tilts" the playerbase, and makes for a bad play experience for everyone.
And what opinion did I state as fact? Can you speak for the playerbase? Or really, ultimately, for anyone but yourself--at the very least without explicit data regarding the opinions of others, and/or consensual and approved representation of those people? On the other hand, WotC continuing to make these very cards, the occasional person expressing enjoyment of these cards each time they come out, the occasional person expressing loathing, most saying nothing either way, and these cards demonstrably having little to no negative or positive impact on Limited or Constructed play, does seem to point to the bulk of the playerbase most likely not particularly caring one way or the other. It's entirely possible I am wrong on this, and that's ok. But what evidence is there that this splits the playerbase, or pisses even a significant portion of them off? I would certainly love to see that data.
You are also insinuating, it seems, that one or both of us are tilted in this very dialogue?
Speak for yourself. Once again. If you are tilted, just say that.
I, however, am not the least bit tilted.
I am simply having a calm discussion with someone online about statistically maximizing random elements in a game in your favor in one manner, while I work from home on another computer. Maximizing the odds of random elements being a phenomenon common throughout the game Magic the Gathering; much of the skill of the game itself is maximizing the odds in your favor both when deck building and utilizing what you draw during any given game state. Nothing more. That's a fundamental aspect of games with elements of chance combined with skill. This is why there are entire fields of statistical study related to games and game theory and stacking the odds of any given decision as heavily in your favor as possible.
This version of Rakdos has elements of randomness that can be significantly pushed in your favor, leaving you open to no risk of backlash. A risk-free random chance of a potentially explosive negative outcome against an opponent can be a significant statistical toy to play with, imho. Even if one unlikely to be competitive, or played in most Limited decks.
Regardless, this dialogue is not proof of "the playerbase" being tilted at all. It might, if you state as much, be evidence of you getting tilted. At best. And that's... it.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
The very first Rakdos the Defiler did care for demons.
Caring for creature types is more for flavor and forcing some form of collective tribal as it would be one.
They do the same for sea-creatures if they spell them out as it would be just 1 tribe:
Also happens in Innistrad when they collect the "monster" creature types:
Victim of Night
Its bad as the text is noisy , but what else do you want to do, as they have creature types that are specific.
Its like they named "human" and "humanoid" creature types and spelled them all out (like dwarfs, elves, orcs, etc.).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
This rakdos is really just a 6/6 flyer for 4RB , and it kills randomly stuff.
Thats nothing new, nothing special, its just a generic big creature.
That does in no way mean its a "bad" card to play, its far from that, as its an easy to splash card for any deck in limited and its also just value to play in constructed (while the "random" really really becomes annoying as hell in any reasonable tournament setting, when your win/lose depends on a coinflip, thats just terrible, and for that alone i deeply hate this card and design space).
Compared to the 2nd iteration of Rakdos, Lord of Riots, this is incredible boring.
At least the Riots Rakdos asked for actual deep commitment to Rakdos in its manacost. Even the mechanic was basically Spectacle and delivered a very unique effect to make everything almost free to play , while providing a very undercosted huge body.
Simply put, it did something "special", rather than a generic flyer that just kills stuff randomly and might be a complete party pooper, when he destroys nothing and you just lose because of it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Still never liked the tribal aspect of that ability. I guess it's a callback, but it still doesn't feel like a fit.
...we play a game where we shuffle our decks. In any given game, win or lose at any given instant can be largely tied to the luck of the draw. It's not like we're playing chess here. Throughout every game, chance influences outcome.
BR has a long and sad history of terrible Legendary Creatures. Olivia Voldaren, Mogis, God of Slaughter, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and Vial Smasher the Fierce are the only ones generally agreed to be good. With Rakdos, Lord of Riots, The Scorpion God, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch and Xantcha, Sleeper Agent being potentially good when their gimmick works. Playing any of the others is a pretty much a handicap.
Thankfully, Judith, the Scourge Diva is super good because this Rakdos goes in the handicap bag. His stats are mediocre in Commander and Standard, while Modern and Eternal have much better demons to cheat in.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Its a whole different kind of random.
If you make a sound decision what to play from your hand, you know what will happen, thats why you make the decision to play the card in the first place.
Drawing cards is random, but that doesnt change any decision you make, you make your decisions based on what you draw.
If a card has a random effect when played, its truely just random, it either wins or loses, you cant do anything to influence that outcome, its just literally a coinflip. Thats the absolute nightmare scenario for any SPIKE player , as it has absolutely nothing to do with Skill at all, its just the worst form of randomness you can add to a game that wants to mark itself as any form of skill-based.
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This card will just randomly decide games in Limited, and for that alone i already hate it to the bones.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Lyra Dawnbringer the other half?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Doom Whisperer already sees limited play, and Rakdos is much worse.
Going to disagree with this. Just like good plays that help you try to manipulate statistics to get the cards you need from your deck, this card rewards you for stacking the odds in your favor. If you do, in fact, have all demons, devils, and imps out, you know for sure your side of the board is safe. The other side of the board, each and every non-demon, non-devil, non-imp has a flat 50-50 chance of dropping dead on the spot. So maximize those odds. Opponent has one creature? Odds are even that they lose their only creature or lose nothing. They have two? Odds are, half their creatures die. And so on.
Flipping coins for X number of permanents to kill them can, in fact, reward play in precisely the same way card filtering and the like, or stacking your deck with certain numbers of cards, etc, do. It's all about stacking the statistical odds in your favor. Nothing more, nothing less. Might you gain nothing extra? Sure. Just like you can readily, and often do, gain nothing when you play a card that manipulates the odds of drawing what you need. The moment the opponent has more than one non-hell-tribal creatures out, odds are, you will get some value. If even ONE creature dies on the opposing side of the board, Rakdos just became at least a 2-for-1 big threat on the board.
The point is, the card doesnt really reward you, it actively PUNISHES you for not playing with its gimmick and even if you do everything you can, its still a 50/50 coinflip to either do NOTHING or destroy a creature.
Its just every time a feel bad moment, for either you or the opponent, this card has no winner, it makes everything and everyone miserable (and if that was the goal to designing this card, congrats).
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Every magic card has the inherent randomness of the library, there is nothing to remove that.
Adding MORE randomness to a card, just for the sake of randomness is not good.
There is no denial that a subset of players enjoys adding as many randomness to the game as possible. The more random the better for them.
But these players rarely if ever care for winning at all, you dont want that kind of randomness if you want to expect the game to have a skill involved.
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Anyway, its the kind of card that will always tilt the playerbase either to absolutely HATE it, or just embrace the randomness of it.
And it will lead to the kind of frustrating moments that make players totally tilt at a table, thats simply not a good experience at all.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Niz-Mizzet is technically still alive and only vanished.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
i know its not the best card but its likely better than you think
first of this is the closet we have gotten to a demon tribal general since rakdos 1.0 stinks since you have to sac everything on attack and nobody can resist throwing in dragons and angels in kaalia
second you can actually kill progenius and true-name nemesis with him since it doesn't target not to mention krark's thumb can make it 25/75 instead so easier to manipulate the board
its not like S tier good but its definately not bad in edh
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
It doesn't punish you for its "gimmick". It straight up rewards you for playing a tribal deck. There are even more extreme versions of this kind of reward, that do things like sweep the board of creatures not of a tribe. This is a similar effect. It's a tribal card that statistically rewards you for a certain board state and playing... a tribal deck. A very common type of deck to put cards in to gain rewards for being tribal. Cards that are, by and large, sufficiently inferior to not be worth consideration outside of a tribal deck. This is the nature of tribal cards. Always has been, always will be.
See, here is where lines are crossed. It might very well make you feel bad, and you can absolutely speak for yourself, regarding your own thoughts and feelings about such things. You cannot, however, simply assert that an effect like this blanket makes everyone miserable; that is projection, plain and simple. Clearly, there is a solid enough subset of an audience for random element cards that can potentially give higher than normal rewards with said random element in exchange for potentially less value, and that rewards you more the better you stack the odds in your favor, for WotC to consistently make cards like this, and for people to regularly express joy at their very existence.
And there is also a challenge, and a skill level, associated with successfully using a card with fixed statistical odds like this as heavily into your favor as possible. For example, a Hell-tribal Commander deck that plays this might very well kill huge numbers of creatures over the course of a game, as the odds get stacked in your favor periodically, and I would wager very good money there are plenty of people who would get a kick out of timing this version of Rakdos to maximize the odds they destroy a large number of creatures on the board.
And this, too, is more projecting than anything else. Just because you, personally (and clearly stated), cannot stand cards with this kind of random element, does not, in fact, always tilt the playerbase, nor make for a bad play experience. It makes for a bad play experience for you. And you are the only person you can in actuality speak for regarding this.
Read exactly what i said.
No matter what, you at best get a 50/50 coinflip to destroy a creature.
If that is your "reward" then its terrible, thats not a reward at all.
If this kills your creature and non of theirs, its downright terrible, and no matter what, thats going to happen, as you simply will not have 100% of the creature types it asks for in Limited.
Exactly, everyone has some cards they like. Thats exactly why they exist, and thats exactly why i claim it will divide the playerbase in either hating this card to the bones, or they enjoy the randomness of cards occasionally doing nothing simply because of randomness.
You cant change the fact its a coinflip (outside of very specific flip again cards obviously).
Its a random effect, if people like that, good, i just explained why people absolutely despite this kind of randomness that is that swingy and easily decides the outcome of a game by a bunch of coinflips and no proper decision making or skill involved at all (you can only make it worse for yourself by making fundamentally bad choices).
Its equally just you projecting, so neither can claim to have any better position.
I really really hate if people claim to talk "in fact" when they are just talking of their very own subjective opinion.
Your opinion is not a fact, its just your opinion.
And if our little dialog isnt the very best PROOF that this card is "in fact" tilting the playerbase, then what is ?
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Would be tempting, as the Heavenly deck would sensibly have a lot of Angels, but I would also have Clerics and Knights in there, so Archangel of Thune or Angel of Serenity would probably work better. In Serenity's case, bonus points for being on the same plane as Rakdos. Since most of the Clerics and Knights would be Human, Angelic Overseer could also work.
Meanwhile the Hellish deck would be chock full of Demons and Devils, plus maybe the odd Imp, though it too should have a few Clerics to represent cultists.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Oh? Did the goalpost get moved to talking about limited? Who knew?
And yes, I understood what you meant and mistyped that it doesn't really punish you for not playing its gimmick, any more than any other tribal effect that punishes non-tribal cards are actually punishing you for not playing tribal. Any more than playing a card like Ritual of Soot is actually punishing you for having small creatures out, or Wrath of God is punishing you for having creatures out at all. When a card is made with an explicitly tribal effect, that is a strong signal that card is intended to go into a tribal deck. And will likely be subpar at best outside of a tribal deck, so play it in a tribal deck. A card having some sort of global effect that leaves out specific subsets of cards does not a punishing card make. It's intentionally designed to reward you for sticking with the correct subset of cards, therefore like Wrath of God, you really shouldn't be placing it in decks where it hurts you more than it hurts the opponent. *** is rewarding you for smart and streamlined, focused deck construction. Just like Rakdos.
As for "at best"? At best, this version of Rakdos is a 6-drop, 6/6 flying trampler that kills every single solitary creature you don't control on the board at once. At worst, this is a 6-drop, 6/6 flying trampler that kills every creature you control other than Rakdos. Those are the absolute best and worst possible outcomes of playing this version of Rakdos. If you are playing a Hell-tribal deck, the latter is nigh impossible. You've stacked the odds much more heavily in your favor. Now, at best, Rakdos is a 6/6 flying trampler that sweeps the opponent's creatures all board, and at worst it's merely a 6/6 flying trampler.
Same reason a card like Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep, that bounces every non-sea-creature (kraken, octopus, etc) to their controllers' hand, is at best going to bounce your opponent's board and leave yours alone, and at worst bounce your board (other than Slinn) and leave your opponent's alone. But if you're playing a sea-creature-tribal deck, or a deck with only a handful of large threats Slinn doesn't effect (so not "really" tribal by most standard), voila. You've just radically changed the odds in a way the designers quite likely wished to see as an interaction and deck construction choice, such that it can't bounce one of your creatures at all, so at best it "just" bounces your opponent's side of the board, and not yours, and at worst it "just" bounces however many non-sea-creatures your opponent has out. Skinn is not, however, truly punishing you for playing non-sea-creatures. Its very design is signaling to you what kind of deck can best maximize its potentially high reward effect, and which decks bring with it potentially high risk to as well.
Such is the nature of potential high reward effects, especially tribal-affiliated ones.
That each non-Hellish creature has a 50/50 chance of surviving is a random element, Indeed. Just like the five cards you draw with Fact or Fiction is a random element, and the best you can do is try to stack the odds of getting the outcome you want as heavily in your favor as possible with FoF. Doesn't in any way, shape, or form remove the extra random element FoF introduces into its effect. And yet, FoF is a stellar card that has seen a great deal of play, due to its ability to stack the random elements it introduces in your favor.
Except... you keep speaking for the entire community, or large swathes of it at a minimum, which was my point. Speak for yourself, not for the entire or much of the player base, and you'll be discussing something that isn't both hyperbole and inserting your thoughts into the thoughts of others. Or making huge blanket claims that a card with a coin flipping element will become split, with a false dichotomy of either hating it to their bones or enjoying the randomness. In the past, has this happened to the playerbase? Not speaking for yourself, or personal anecdotes of people you play with. Have previous coin flipping cards had the community either loathe or love said card? Or have some unknown number hated it, some unknown number love it, and the majority mostly just not express an opinion or seem to care in any way, with the many previous coin-flipping cards causing little to no waves either negatively or positively?
Yes, you globally spoke for many people who aren't you, when all you can relevantly discuss without actual data is that you despise this effect. Literally all you needed to do was state that you despise this level of randomness, and leave it at that, without speaking for anyone else. Let others, then, join in expressing support for your opinion, or opposition.
How am I projecting, exactly? There are people in this very thread who demonstrably expressed joy and excitement at this card, and its random element. I am not one of those people (such effects can be amusing, and interesting a challenge to build around casually, but not generally my personal cup of tea to play with--but playing against them doesn't bother me in the least, either). I am not speaking for those people. Pointing out nothing more than such people exist is not speaking for anyone else. Those very people existing is directly contrary to your assertion that this "tilts" the playerbase, and makes for a bad play experience for everyone.
And what opinion did I state as fact? Can you speak for the playerbase? Or really, ultimately, for anyone but yourself--at the very least without explicit data regarding the opinions of others, and/or consensual and approved representation of those people? On the other hand, WotC continuing to make these very cards, the occasional person expressing enjoyment of these cards each time they come out, the occasional person expressing loathing, most saying nothing either way, and these cards demonstrably having little to no negative or positive impact on Limited or Constructed play, does seem to point to the bulk of the playerbase most likely not particularly caring one way or the other. It's entirely possible I am wrong on this, and that's ok. But what evidence is there that this splits the playerbase, or pisses even a significant portion of them off? I would certainly love to see that data.
You are also insinuating, it seems, that one or both of us are tilted in this very dialogue?
Speak for yourself. Once again. If you are tilted, just say that.
I, however, am not the least bit tilted.
I am simply having a calm discussion with someone online about statistically maximizing random elements in a game in your favor in one manner, while I work from home on another computer. Maximizing the odds of random elements being a phenomenon common throughout the game Magic the Gathering; much of the skill of the game itself is maximizing the odds in your favor both when deck building and utilizing what you draw during any given game state. Nothing more. That's a fundamental aspect of games with elements of chance combined with skill. This is why there are entire fields of statistical study related to games and game theory and stacking the odds of any given decision as heavily in your favor as possible.
This version of Rakdos has elements of randomness that can be significantly pushed in your favor, leaving you open to no risk of backlash. A risk-free random chance of a potentially explosive negative outcome against an opponent can be a significant statistical toy to play with, imho. Even if one unlikely to be competitive, or played in most Limited decks.
Regardless, this dialogue is not proof of "the playerbase" being tilted at all. It might, if you state as much, be evidence of you getting tilted. At best. And that's... it.
Wait...is that Venom on the left?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)