The way you put 36 (37?) PWs in a set and not screw everything up is to make them all flipwalkers and only one can flip at a time (they hold the Spark).
While this is my own theory, I think I believe just '36 Legendary creatures' more because making 36 PWs for one set has got to burn through a LOT of design space.
The main mark against them being 'just' Legendary creatures is that the art is all art that can/should be put on PW cards.
That doesn't seem like too much of a restriction. If the Walker is strong enough.
Problem is they cannot print counting everyone who has a Walker what two dozen walkers and make them all weak and garbage. Not accounting for rotation since we dont know what plane is next.
I think temp spark loss is likely. Be interesting to see if sticks especially if just the Gatewatch keeps their sparks.
So far, the most plausible explanation to so many planeswalkers is a masterpiece set. This would include existing versions of lots of planeswalkers, plus 5-8 from the new set. All the ways people can conceive of juking more planeswalkers in are cool design challenges, but it doesn't make sense to have 36 of anything like that in a single set.
What I'm hoping for is when most of the planeswalkers (both pro-Bolas and Pro-Gatewatch) are either dead or on their knees, Tibalt suddenly realizes he's been ****ed over and turns on Bolas and wins out of sheer surprise to everyone, even Bolas.
Zero to Hero. The Magic community would be stunned.
'buster
The planeswalker we need, not the planeswalker we deserve.
What about some partner Walkers...Two Walkers on the same card? The trick though is making sure you dont get two many three color cards but should be doable with 36 options.
I mean the problem with say Koth showing up is why would he care about Ravnica. I mean Phyrexia is a threat on the level of Bolas and no one is helping him. Karn will come back eventually but I don't see why Koth would give an ef about Ravnica.
I would say legendary creature would be temp as trapping characters who don't care about Ravnica on Ravnica would be a waste of time.
I don't think Koth would give a damn about Ravnica. There's nothing (to my knowledge) even saying that he knows about Ravnica, or that the beacon includes any sort of information at all.
I think the reason he'd show up to investigate is because, ostensibly, in all the years he's been capable of traveling between planes, never once has he ever experienced and event where a signal or message of any kind has proved capable of breaching the barrier between worlds. NOT investigating would be as if humans were capable of interstellar travel, received what could be the first ever signal from another civilization, and then simply decided not to bother checking it out.
Which reminds what is the point of Teferi and Ajani being in the Gatewatch if they play second fiddle in the marketing to Nissa who quit and Vivien who is not even on the Gatewatch. I mean yes Ajani has been on the team for awhile but Teferi they just had him join so you think they want to know have him do relevant things and be in the marketing. But nope have not been a fan of Teferi treatment in general storywise or marketing wise. Now his card they did right by him but storyline wise...
Watch the "epic romance" between Lili and Gideon Romance that only started in Dominaria play a pivotal roll I bet Jace and them will be the main characters on the Hero side. Even if Lili starts under Bolas control. It took valuable time away from Teferi, Karn and Jaya. Jhoira got her story time but even then we spent more time on the romance then the reunion between Teferi, Jhoira and Karn which was what 10 years real time and like 60+ in Universe. I mean sheesh Gideon suppose to be the Paladin that means no wanting bang evil necromancers that are technically heroes but use to slaughter people for fun. Is he going to forgive a certain God or does this redemption and mercy only count when he wants to bang them. Wasnt he interested in Chandra? Then again I think they have struggled figuring out what to do with Gideon in general.
What about some partner Walkers...Two Walkers on the same card? The trick though is making sure you dont get two many three color cards but should be doable with 36 options.
Since we now have art (the stained-glass windows are based on actual card illustrations according to the sources cited in this thread) we can rule out two planeswalkers on one card in most simple iterations of that idea, where they appear in the same art.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
There's not gonna be 36 walkers in the set because there's only 15-16 mythics.
Even if they commit the massive atrocity of spreading them into sealed product that's 15 in set, up to 5 in Planeswalker Decks, 5 in Game Night, 2 in Starter Kit, 5 in a Guild Kits-like product and 8 in WAR Mythic Edition. Then we could get up to 40, but 20 wouldn't be readily avaliable to most of the world.
maybe they will play around with 'planeswalker' as a creature subtype. i could see that being an avenue of showing the theme at common and uncommon.
but yeah 36 actual 'legendary planeswalkers' in the set just doesnt make much sense. as mentioned above you are just burning through so much design capital by having to think up and showcase that many activated abilities; let alone the balancing nightmare. so yeah its either walkers in creature form, or as a masterpiece type deal.
i guess my idea of planeswalker split cards with like 2 activations on each side so it can fit is still on the table; but i made that in jest.
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They could also introduce spark counters to activate or trigger the abilities of permanent and effects of spells with a walker like term as their subtype.
im less convinced they would encroach on supertypes like that. i was just thinking along the lines of run-of-the-mill legendary creatures that are all 'elf planeswalker' and 'humans planeswalker' etc, with stuff almost akin to tribal synergies to build around in uncommon. also like you mention 'planeswalker' might not be the best type to tag onto certain cards because it doesnt make much sense conceptually. like how can an inanimate, or otherwise unliving 'thing' be a planeswalker? something like 'legendary enchantment - planeswalker aura' makes more sense to me; otherwise you would have cards like bedevil killing enchantments. not completely implausible, but i think its confusion easily avoided.
ive seen other ideas similar to the spark counter thrown around, or like it being something that changes your board when you have it vs. when an opponent does. however they always sounded too close to energy by being some extra resource (which obviously didnt work out that well in standard), or like 'monarch' from the conspiracy sets where you either have it or you dont. the gameplay of such things tends to be rather binary, and thus swings on who draws better. not very interesting imo.
one thing i imagine they will try to touch on is the idea of 'gathering support' to a get a sense that sides are being formed and battles are being fought.
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The planeswalker we need, not the planeswalker we deserve.
This is Tibalt we're talking about. More 'The planeswalker we deserve, not the planeswalker we need. Ever. Really. I mean, who ever needed Tibalt?!'
As far as the PWs in War goes, I can see Wizards actually doing the whole 36 PWs in one set thing. They do seem very proud of how outrageously crazy they think this set is going to be.
i guess my idea of planeswalker split cards with like 2 activations on each side so it can fit is still on the table; but i made that in jest.
Actually, I think that might be actual new design space for planeswalkers: Two planeswalkers in a single card/permanent with a common pool for loyalty, but a distinct set of abilities... Probably hard to balance...
Chandra & Nissa, Fire & Earth4RG
Planeswalker - Chandra Nissa (M)
Planeswalker Team (You may activate up to one Chandra loyalty ability and up to one Nissa ability each turn.)
Nissa [+1]: Target land you control becomes a 4/4 creature with indestructible until end of turn. It's still a land.
Nissa [-2]: Destroy target enchantment.
Chandra [+1]: Exile the top card of your library. You may play that card this turn.
Chandra [-2]: ~ deals 4 damage to target creature.
Chandra & Nissa [-7]: ~ deals X damage to target player and each creature that player controls, and you gain X life and create a X/X green Avatar creature token, where X is equal equal to the number to the lands you control.
2
So you get one activation from column A and one from column B each turn if so desired. There are probably some cool synergies you could do e. g. with Gideon and Jace: Gideon taps a creature and Jace bounces a tapped creature.
But the mere fact that you get two mix and match abilities is already plenty of opportunity just by itself like Commands - just Commands that come back each turn.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Sure, there is a chance of spending $4 on a booster and getting the Mythic Rare $30 super card. There is also a chance of surviving putting your tongue in a light socket.
@tronix I was just not saying something exact but probably similar, Mtg can do a new subtype with different approach rather than forcing a type to work in a certain new approach that can cause confusion.
As for your issue with energy and spark counter i never given yet an example or how it would work what I said is just a trigger to activate something.
Energy as a basis alone for another counter mechanic not to work is a poor analogy because we had different counter mechanics that has been done also in the past not just energy alone.
The art suggests we are getting 36 (plus Bolas) planeswalkers?!?
I don't see them making some of them masterpieces, since they'd appear too infrequently if "Planeswalker War" is the selling point. Maybe they are going to do like Time Spiral's special rarity for adding planeswalker or planeswalker related spells to each pack.
I mean the problem with say Koth showing up is why would he care about Ravnica. I mean Phyrexia is a threat on the level of Bolas and no one is helping him. Karn will come back eventually but I don't see why Koth would give an ef about Ravnica.
I would say legendary creature would be temp as trapping characters who don't care about Ravnica on Ravnica would be a waste of time.
I don't think Koth would give a damn about Ravnica. There's nothing (to my knowledge) even saying that he knows about Ravnica, or that the beacon includes any sort of information at all.
I think the reason he'd show up to investigate is because, ostensibly, in all the years he's been capable of traveling between planes, never once has he ever experienced and event where a signal or message of any kind has proved capable of breaching the barrier between worlds. NOT investigating would be as if humans were capable of interstellar travel, received what could be the first ever signal from another civilization, and then simply decided not to bother checking it out.
Yeah, I was thinking he would seem out of place. (Right now, he's got a one-track mind, and that track is wearing thin.)
Still the question of Sorin.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
We already got Vraska, Ral, Domri, Dovin, and Kaya this block, so let's bring the number from 36 to 31.
Still, even if they use some of the funky tricks people suggest, it's no small thing to cram them in. Five doublewalkers plus five activatable walkers (which could be lower rarity) plus ten creatures that aren't walkers anymore is still only twenty-five represented, and that's eating up tons of rare and mythic slots. We've been told that the art exists in the set in non-stained glass form, and it looks like pretty traditional walker art, making wacky possibilities less likely.
Flipwalkers, and things that can activate into planeswalkers have the wrong flavor: people aren't becoming planeswalkers, they're having their sparks taken.
Champions of Kamigawa has 48 legendary creatures, so maybe 30 non-walker iterations with 6 plot-relevant planeswalkers is still possible.
I'm still saying the only way to do this practically is with a masterpiece set, or with a special planeswalker rarity that is essentially similar to a masterpiece set (but putting all of them into Standard seems implausible).
What about some partner Walkers...Two Walkers on the same card? The trick though is making sure you dont get two many three color cards but should be doable with 36 options.
That would be interesting.
Jace+Vraska=UBG
Gideon+Liliana=WB
Etc.
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That doesn't seem like too much of a restriction. If the Walker is strong enough.
Problem is they cannot print counting everyone who has a Walker what two dozen walkers and make them all weak and garbage. Not accounting for rotation since we dont know what plane is next.
I think temp spark loss is likely. Be interesting to see if sticks especially if just the Gatewatch keeps their sparks.
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My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I don't think Koth would give a damn about Ravnica. There's nothing (to my knowledge) even saying that he knows about Ravnica, or that the beacon includes any sort of information at all.
I think the reason he'd show up to investigate is because, ostensibly, in all the years he's been capable of traveling between planes, never once has he ever experienced and event where a signal or message of any kind has proved capable of breaching the barrier between worlds. NOT investigating would be as if humans were capable of interstellar travel, received what could be the first ever signal from another civilization, and then simply decided not to bother checking it out.
Watch the "epic romance" between Lili and Gideon Romance that only started in Dominaria play a pivotal roll I bet Jace and them will be the main characters on the Hero side. Even if Lili starts under Bolas control. It took valuable time away from Teferi, Karn and Jaya. Jhoira got her story time but even then we spent more time on the romance then the reunion between Teferi, Jhoira and Karn which was what 10 years real time and like 60+ in Universe. I mean sheesh Gideon suppose to be the Paladin that means no wanting bang evil necromancers that are technically heroes but use to slaughter people for fun. Is he going to forgive a certain God or does this redemption and mercy only count when he wants to bang them. Wasnt he interested in Chandra? Then again I think they have struggled figuring out what to do with Gideon in general.
Since we now have art (the stained-glass windows are based on actual card illustrations according to the sources cited in this thread) we can rule out two planeswalkers on one card in most simple iterations of that idea, where they appear in the same art.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Even if they commit the massive atrocity of spreading them into sealed product that's 15 in set, up to 5 in Planeswalker Decks, 5 in Game Night, 2 in Starter Kit, 5 in a Guild Kits-like product and 8 in WAR Mythic Edition. Then we could get up to 40, but 20 wouldn't be readily avaliable to most of the world.
but yeah 36 actual 'legendary planeswalkers' in the set just doesnt make much sense. as mentioned above you are just burning through so much design capital by having to think up and showcase that many activated abilities; let alone the balancing nightmare. so yeah its either walkers in creature form, or as a masterpiece type deal.
i guess my idea of planeswalker split cards with like 2 activations on each side so it can fit is still on the table; but i made that in jest.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Enchantment Planeswalker
Artifact Planeswalker
Sorcery Planeswalker
Aura Planeswalker
and not also Planeswalker as the exact term
They could also introduce spark counters to activate or trigger the abilities of permanent and effects of spells with a walker like term as their subtype.
ive seen other ideas similar to the spark counter thrown around, or like it being something that changes your board when you have it vs. when an opponent does. however they always sounded too close to energy by being some extra resource (which obviously didnt work out that well in standard), or like 'monarch' from the conspiracy sets where you either have it or you dont. the gameplay of such things tends to be rather binary, and thus swings on who draws better. not very interesting imo.
one thing i imagine they will try to touch on is the idea of 'gathering support' to a get a sense that sides are being formed and battles are being fought.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This is Tibalt we're talking about. More 'The planeswalker we deserve, not the planeswalker we need. Ever. Really. I mean, who ever needed Tibalt?!'
As far as the PWs in War goes, I can see Wizards actually doing the whole 36 PWs in one set thing. They do seem very proud of how outrageously crazy they think this set is going to be.
Actually, I think that might be actual new design space for planeswalkers: Two planeswalkers in a single card/permanent with a common pool for loyalty, but a distinct set of abilities... Probably hard to balance...
Planeswalker - Chandra Nissa (M)
Planeswalker Team (You may activate up to one Chandra loyalty ability and up to one Nissa ability each turn.)
Nissa [-2]: Destroy target enchantment.
Chandra [-2]: ~ deals 4 damage to target creature.
Chandra & Nissa [-7]: ~ deals X damage to target player and each creature that player controls, and you gain X life and create a X/X green Avatar creature token, where X is equal equal to the number to the lands you control.
So you get one activation from column A and one from column B each turn if so desired. There are probably some cool synergies you could do e. g. with Gideon and Jace: Gideon taps a creature and Jace bounces a tapped creature.
But the mere fact that you get two mix and match abilities is already plenty of opportunity just by itself like Commands - just Commands that come back each turn.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Zendikar was a disaster but Innistrad going from gothic horror to eldritch horror felt much better.
As for your issue with energy and spark counter i never given yet an example or how it would work what I said is just a trigger to activate something.
Energy as a basis alone for another counter mechanic not to work is a poor analogy because we had different counter mechanics that has been done also in the past not just energy alone.
Garruk Amulet - artifact
For every condition met put a spark counter. If it had 5 spark counters on it...
Flip the card to Garruk or something like put a Garruk permanent or emblem with this and that ability.
I don't see them making some of them masterpieces, since they'd appear too infrequently if "Planeswalker War" is the selling point. Maybe they are going to do like Time Spiral's special rarity for adding planeswalker or planeswalker related spells to each pack.
Sample
Elspeth reinforcements
Sorcery- walkertype
Put 3 1/1 white soldier creature into the battlefield
Yeah, I was thinking he would seem out of place. (Right now, he's got a one-track mind, and that track is wearing thin.)
Still the question of Sorin.
On phasing:
Still, even if they use some of the funky tricks people suggest, it's no small thing to cram them in. Five doublewalkers plus five activatable walkers (which could be lower rarity) plus ten creatures that aren't walkers anymore is still only twenty-five represented, and that's eating up tons of rare and mythic slots. We've been told that the art exists in the set in non-stained glass form, and it looks like pretty traditional walker art, making wacky possibilities less likely.
Flipwalkers, and things that can activate into planeswalkers have the wrong flavor: people aren't becoming planeswalkers, they're having their sparks taken.
Champions of Kamigawa has 48 legendary creatures, so maybe 30 non-walker iterations with 6 plot-relevant planeswalkers is still possible.
I'm still saying the only way to do this practically is with a masterpiece set, or with a special planeswalker rarity that is essentially similar to a masterpiece set (but putting all of them into Standard seems implausible).
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
That would be interesting.
Jace+Vraska=UBG
Gideon+Liliana=WB
Etc.