I'm sorry to see my arguments remain unaddressed. Mr_Lord_Mr gave it the best shot. Kudos to him. The worst shot is the guy who wasted an hour checking Amonkhet cards to find evidence of white people, but failed, and then somehow tried to twist it as disproof of my argument. Or maybe it's the guy who equates the card art of Triumph of Ferocity with child pornography.
In any case, the responses I received are now sufficient for me to conclude that my initial concerns do indeed have merit. I'll no longer be reading this thread as I have work to get on with. Thank you.
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-- The Gatewatch
I'm sorry to see my arguments remain unaddressed. Mr_Lord_Mr gave it the best shot. Kudos to him. The worst shot is the guy who wasted an hour checking Amonkhet cards to find evidence of white people, but failed, and then somehow tried to twist it as disproof of my argument. Or maybe it's the guy who equates the card art of Triumph of Ferocity with child pornography.
In any case, the responses I received are now sufficient for me to conclude that my initial concerns do indeed have merit. I'll no longer be reading this thread as I have work to get on with. Thank you.
Bhogal's reply is brought to you by ego defense mechanisms!
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean) without any support.
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean).
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
Is it so much to ask that if you start an argument, you should see it through? Has the valor of the right fallen so low that at every turn they are opposed they resort to intellectual cowardice?
Or should it not come as a surprise that those who have admitted from their own mouths that they hate justice, also hate honor?
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean) without any support.
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
You're original post was fantastic. I'm sorry the work you put in to actually addressing what was brought up was so ignored...but then I suspected it would be.
I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed. You can only go forward with this. Eventually minds will expand.
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean).
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
Is it so much to ask that if you start an argument, you should see it through? Has the valor of the right fallen so low that at every turn they are opposed they resort to intellectual cowardice?
Or should it not come as a surprise that those who have admitted from their own mouths that they hate justice, also hate honor?
The hilarious part is that despite his "I'll no longer be checking this thread", everyone knows he is checking the thread. Shaking, covered in sweat, and considering it better to have made it out alive than to lose more of his dignity.
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean).
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
Is it so much to ask that if you start an argument, you should see it through? Has the valor of the right fallen so low that at every turn they are opposed they resort to intellectual cowardice?
Or should it not come as a surprise that those who have admitted from their own mouths that they hate justice, also hate honor?
The hilarious part is that despite his "I'll no longer be checking this thread", everyone knows he is checking the thread. Shaking, cdovered in sweat, and considering it better to have made it out alive than to lose more of his dignity.
I'd like to think so. But I'm especially disappointed that I didn't get to ding him for the error he made conflating an analogy with equating. A critical analytic difference!
Forgive my ignorance, but are there lots of dark skinned people in this set/plane?
If there are, then having a black queen makes perfect sense. If there are not, then it makes no sense because kings and queens usually inherit titles, not take them, so they are usually the same race as the general populace.
Edit: from the current spoiler i see zero other black people, which does make this queen kind of bizarre.
It would be the equivalent of Henry the eigth having a black queen from Africa. Not impossible, but definitely strange.
It boggles my mind that people are so stuck on this. Her skin color literally doesn’t matter. They could have made her green with purple spots and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Her skin color is not relevant to her character or story arc. For the love of god people just let it go.
It boggles my mind that people are so stuck on this. Her skin color literally doesn’t matter. They could have made her green with purple spots and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Her skin color is not relevant to her character or story arc. For the love of god people just let it go.
Yup. And it's pretty disheartening to come to this site which for years has been a great forum to discuss Magic spoilers and to be presented with some bigot's unwanted hot takes about how diversity is bad and its ruining muh Magic the Gathering. There are countless places where you can go and be racist on the internet but this isn't one of them.
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It boggles my mind that people are so stuck on this. Her skin color literally doesn’t matter. They could have made her green with purple spots and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Her skin color is not relevant to her character or story arc. For the love of god people just let it go.
Yup. And it's pretty disheartening to come to this site which for years has been a great forum to discuss Magic spoilers and to be presented with some bigot's unwanted hot takes about how diversity is bad and its ruining muh Magic the Gathering. There are countless places where you can go and be racist on the internet but this isn't one of them.
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
For instance-
I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed.
I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
Forgive my ignorance, but are there lots of dark skinned people in this set/plane?
If there are, then having a black queen makes perfect sense. If there are not, then it makes no sense because kings and queens usually inherit titles, not take them, so they are usually the same race as the general populace.
Edit: from the current spoiler i see zero other black people, which does make this queen kind of bizarre.
It would be the equivalent of Henry the eigth having a black queen from Africa. Not impossible, but definitely strange.
Not exactly the point you were raising, but if Linden is basically the only PoC being depicted, that's tokenism which is also bad. I "spent an hour" reviewing the spoiled cards and it looks like there's a couple of examples of nonwhite characters depicted in each color. White has the most legendary depictions of PoC. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions.
And if I may say, I think Linden being black does matter. It matters to PoC whether they are represented or not in the game. Instead I would argue, if you're complaining about PoC getting representation, regardless of your rationale, it is *without exception* racist. This is really simple. It's 2019 guys, try not being racist please.
Ah, yes, PoC will surely hang their hat on this achievement, being represented on a single card, without any context, in a TCG designed for tweens. Present them their participation trophy and call it a day, #winning.
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
For instance-
I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed.
I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
Either way, I just can’t believe this discussion is even allowed to exist. Both the comments that cross the line and those here on the last page taking continued shots at another user, valid or not. You’re all pretty s****y human beings, just saying.
Not sure why it's such a priority for you to offer up apologia for racist comments. I'm disinclined to give your judgments about other people's character much stock.
Ah, yes, PoC will surely hang their hat on this achievement, being represented on a single card, without any context, in a TCG designed for tweens. Present them their participation trophy and call it a day, #winning.
Flip that around and ask yourself why anyone could complain about something so trivial. A thing so trivial that you even saw fit to post comments about the issue. You're not being very honest.
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
You're conflating the actual racist comments with those asking for clarification of contextualization. You don't need to white knight for the former in order to be accepting of the latter.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
And there we go. This isn't about people being accused of racism inappropriately or being upset about incivility. This is you having a problem with seeing POC represented in Magic artwork and trying to portray them as political plants in order to further your own political narrative.
to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality.
Why is the fantasy that you prefer one that doesn't have "realism" like POC, instead of one that doesn't have "realism" like racial disparity in class and representation? Both are fantastical depictions and you obviously prefer one over the other. Why do you think that is?
Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
You truly have been on the receiving end of some pretty big injustices here. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at what you had to go through. If there's anything I can do, let me know. You've been through some s****y stuff on this thread page, been judged and whatnot. Shame on all these people. Shame on them.
@gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
No actually that’s exactly the point I was making. Her race isn’t relevant. It’s not relevant to her individual character or any tropes she could be portraying. The same way it’s fine to have female knights because gender isn’t relevant to them or the fictions that inspire them. They could be any race, gender or sex and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like, because she’s dark skinned she’s been through the same thing black people in our world have. I’m not going to go into the ridiculousness of “representation other than to say that if you need someone to look like you in order to empathize with their struggles and journey or to think that you could achieve similarly then that’s a deficiency in you and no one else. Skin color doesn’t matter.
Why don't we all just keep out hot takes about race to ourselves from now on? It sucks that every spoiler thread that has a woman or a POC in the art depicted at all favorably gets derailed by bigots. Can we just talk about the cards and not how bad you guys think representation is?
Seeing a minority isn't an invitation to give your opinion on diversity.
On topic: I think the card isn't amazing but may have a niche in Pridemate decks in standard. I don't see it seeing play in EDH much, but could warrant an inclusion in more casual lifegain decks like an unconventional Oloro or maybe a go-wide lifegain strategy built out of Trostani. I didn't design the set, so maybe this card's lifegain was sorely needed for balance, but I would have liked to see more of a buff effect, like "Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to an opponent, put a +1/+1 counter on it." A slow, but more playable effect for standard and typical white weenie decks.
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People who are intimidated by diversity aren’t really likely to stop comments on these matters. She makes sense and fits, but because that is uncomfortable for them they keep trying to stir up drama out of the forlorn hope that it’ll convince WotC to cater to their niche perception of the world.
Also find it funny that requests for “realism” always seem to be requests for various forms of bigotry or exclusion.
Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.
You truly have been on the receiving end of some pretty big injustices here. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at what you had to go through. If there's anything I can do, let me know. You've been through some s****y stuff on this thread page, been judged and whatnot. Shame on all these people. Shame on them.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
@gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
No actually that’s exactly the point I was making. Her race isn’t relevant. It’s not relevant to her individual character or any tropes she could be portraying. The same way it’s fine to have female knights because gender isn’t relevant to them or the dictions that inspire them. They could be any race, gender or sex and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like, because she’s dark skinned she’s been through the same thing black people in our world have. I’m not going to go into the ridiculousness of “representation other than to say that if you need someone to look like you in order to empathize with their struggles and journey or to think that you could achieve similarly then that’s a deficiency in you and no one else. Skin color doesn’t matter.
So this makes the point I was making. I’m not saying that she needs a tragic backstory. But, is it not reasonable to ask why she is who she is? She is a legendary creature after all. There has to be a reason they chose a black woman to be the Twins step-mother, meaning she’s queen. Married to a white man. I’m not suggesting there be incredible detail, but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of barriers, there should be a level of significance to it. If you’re cool with checked boxes, that’s fine. But, I can assure you that’s not the same as respresentation.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
Nah, just wanted to shed a bit of light on how much of a drama queen you're coming off as, and I kinda think I made you see, just a little bit, whether you want to admit it or not. *****ty human beings for not wanting justification for a black woman in a fantasy card game. *Snort*.
Quote from "Buffsam89 »
but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of my personal barriers, there should be a level of significance to it
Fixed it for you.
Son, you don't think we've all been through this before, with hundreds of others just like you? Who see themselves as the default template for a human being and the depiction of everyone else as a motivated choice that must be explained somehow?
There's absolutely nothing you're adding to the pile; you're simply walking in the footsteps of the many other mental midgets who came before, step by step, by the numbers.
In any case, the responses I received are now sufficient for me to conclude that my initial concerns do indeed have merit. I'll no longer be reading this thread as I have work to get on with. Thank you.
-- The Gatewatch
Bhogal's reply is brought to you by ego defense mechanisms!
There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean) without any support.
I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.
Is it so much to ask that if you start an argument, you should see it through? Has the valor of the right fallen so low that at every turn they are opposed they resort to intellectual cowardice?
Or should it not come as a surprise that those who have admitted from their own mouths that they hate justice, also hate honor?
You're original post was fantastic. I'm sorry the work you put in to actually addressing what was brought up was so ignored...but then I suspected it would be.
I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed. You can only go forward with this. Eventually minds will expand.
The hilarious part is that despite his "I'll no longer be checking this thread", everyone knows he is checking the thread. Shaking, covered in sweat, and considering it better to have made it out alive than to lose more of his dignity.
I'd like to think so. But I'm especially disappointed that I didn't get to ding him for the error he made conflating an analogy with equating. A critical analytic difference!
If there are, then having a black queen makes perfect sense. If there are not, then it makes no sense because kings and queens usually inherit titles, not take them, so they are usually the same race as the general populace.
Edit: from the current spoiler i see zero other black people, which does make this queen kind of bizarre.
It would be the equivalent of Henry the eigth having a black queen from Africa. Not impossible, but definitely strange.
Yup. And it's pretty disheartening to come to this site which for years has been a great forum to discuss Magic spoilers and to be presented with some bigot's unwanted hot takes about how diversity is bad and its ruining muh Magic the Gathering. There are countless places where you can go and be racist on the internet but this isn't one of them.
It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.
For instance-
I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.
Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.
<snip>
Not exactly the point you were raising, but if Linden is basically the only PoC being depicted, that's tokenism which is also bad. I "spent an hour" reviewing the spoiled cards and it looks like there's a couple of examples of nonwhite characters depicted in each color. White has the most legendary depictions of PoC. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions.
And if I may say, I think Linden being black does matter. It matters to PoC whether they are represented or not in the game. Instead I would argue, if you're complaining about PoC getting representation, regardless of your rationale, it is *without exception* racist. This is really simple. It's 2019 guys, try not being racist please.
Not sure why it's such a priority for you to offer up apologia for racist comments. I'm disinclined to give your judgments about other people's character much stock.
Flip that around and ask yourself why anyone could complain about something so trivial. A thing so trivial that you even saw fit to post comments about the issue. You're not being very honest.
You're conflating the actual racist comments with those asking for clarification of contextualization. You don't need to white knight for the former in order to be accepting of the latter.
And there we go. This isn't about people being accused of racism inappropriately or being upset about incivility. This is you having a problem with seeing POC represented in Magic artwork and trying to portray them as political plants in order to further your own political narrative.
Why is the fantasy that you prefer one that doesn't have "realism" like POC, instead of one that doesn't have "realism" like racial disparity in class and representation? Both are fantastical depictions and you obviously prefer one over the other. Why do you think that is?
Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?
I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.
<snip>
You truly have been on the receiving end of some pretty big injustices here. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at what you had to go through. If there's anything I can do, let me know. You've been through some s****y stuff on this thread page, been judged and whatnot. Shame on all these people. Shame on them.
No actually that’s exactly the point I was making. Her race isn’t relevant. It’s not relevant to her individual character or any tropes she could be portraying. The same way it’s fine to have female knights because gender isn’t relevant to them or the fictions that inspire them. They could be any race, gender or sex and it wouldn’t matter. It’s not like, because she’s dark skinned she’s been through the same thing black people in our world have. I’m not going to go into the ridiculousness of “representation other than to say that if you need someone to look like you in order to empathize with their struggles and journey or to think that you could achieve similarly then that’s a deficiency in you and no one else. Skin color doesn’t matter.
Seeing a minority isn't an invitation to give your opinion on diversity.
On topic: I think the card isn't amazing but may have a niche in Pridemate decks in standard. I don't see it seeing play in EDH much, but could warrant an inclusion in more casual lifegain decks like an unconventional Oloro or maybe a go-wide lifegain strategy built out of Trostani. I didn't design the set, so maybe this card's lifegain was sorely needed for balance, but I would have liked to see more of a buff effect, like "Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to an opponent, put a +1/+1 counter on it." A slow, but more playable effect for standard and typical white weenie decks.
Also find it funny that requests for “realism” always seem to be requests for various forms of bigotry or exclusion.
Thank you, your thinly veiled sarcasm truly adds to this discussion. I mean, by all accounts, you truly are a beacon of support here and we should all learn a thing or two from it.
So this makes the point I was making. I’m not saying that she needs a tragic backstory. But, is it not reasonable to ask why she is who she is? She is a legendary creature after all. There has to be a reason they chose a black woman to be the Twins step-mother, meaning she’s queen. Married to a white man. I’m not suggesting there be incredible detail, but you’ve chosen to cross a handful of barriers, there should be a level of significance to it. If you’re cool with checked boxes, that’s fine. But, I can assure you that’s not the same as respresentation.
Nah, just wanted to shed a bit of light on how much of a drama queen you're coming off as, and I kinda think I made you see, just a little bit, whether you want to admit it or not. *****ty human beings for not wanting justification for a black woman in a fantasy card game. *Snort*.
Fixed it for you.
Son, you don't think we've all been through this before, with hundreds of others just like you? Who see themselves as the default template for a human being and the depiction of everyone else as a motivated choice that must be explained somehow?
There's absolutely nothing you're adding to the pile; you're simply walking in the footsteps of the many other mental midgets who came before, step by step, by the numbers.