Rotating formats are a hard sell outside of standard honestly. A lot of players make it to there first set rotation and then they are like "so I can't play with my cards anymore? That sucks!". For a while they had Legacy turn to. Then they Modern. Now they will have Pioneer. Regardless, whichever format they make will incur a secondary market for that format and drive card values up. It creates supply and demand. If they had made Pioneer a rotating format people would have the exact same complaints anyway!
Modern is a Non-Rotating format, not an Eternal format. The difference is inclusiveness. Eternal formats include all suplementary products. Pauper and Legacy are Eternal formats because things like Conspiracy and yearly Commander Deck Series are legal in those formats
Thanks for the correction in regards to terminology.
While I can see where you're coming from in regards to rotating formats, I would counter with two points:
1. The longest reach that any rotating format has ever had was 4 years with extended. If we reach out to the apparent trouble-zone of ten years, a player might get their first pack of cards as a high school freshman and have those cards still be legal when they leave the game as a college senior. That type of longevity in a rotating format is all but unheard of.
2. When I hear wizards talking about having a place to use cards that rotate out of standard, I hear a pitch for an almost subscription-esque system.
"If you invest $200-500 in standard sets four times a year for two years. you will likely have an awesome standard deck. If you keep up this investment for 6+ years, you will likely have an awesome pioneer deck"
Six years from now, however, that statement will likely no longer be true. The dream of creating a format with a HUGE array of cards that you can eventually buy your way into purely by buying standard-legal packs is a pipe dream unless the established staples that wizards won't reprint eventually rotate out. I would love to see this sort of format, wherein a patient person can get the best deck from a huge card pool, packing far more power than any one standard environment without ever chasing old cards or Masters-style packs... but it needs rotation (or a banhammer the size of Nevada) to function.
Extended never really went away. It is always going to be necessary to have a format for players to realistically graduate into after a rotation or two, but if it is boundless eventually that effect will be diluted. They will make Pioneer last as long as they can until it isn't filling that role any more, then they will make a new format and Pioneer will fall to the side. By not calling it extended, players will feel comfortable investing in the format and when it "rotates", it will be when the majority of players will be ready for a new format anyway.
In the meanwhile, Modern is likely to be "eternal 2.0". They can augment the power level and balance of the format with Modern Horizons style supplemental products and have an "eternal" format without the mar of the reserved list.
Extended never really went away. It is always going to be necessary to have a format for players to realistically graduate into after a rotation or two, but if it is boundless eventually that effect will be diluted. They will make Pioneer last as long as they can until it isn't filling that role any more, then they will make a new format and Pioneer will fall to the side. By not calling it extended, players will feel comfortable investing in the format and when it "rotates", it will be when the majority of players will be ready for a new format anyway.
In the meanwhile, Modern is likely to be "eternal 2.0". They can augment the power level and balance of the format with Modern Horizons style supplemental products and have an "eternal" format without the mar of the reserved list.
Yeah I very much see Modern becoming the new Legacy/Vintage. When Post-Pioneer comes out, I think Modern's fate will be 50/50. Modern will need a slew of reprints for the format's price of entry to remain where it is at today (very expensive) and not to devolve into Legacy/Vintage territory (waaaaay too expensive). If WotC can maintain where it is at today (or even a lower) then Modern will be fine. If they cannot, then I imagine Modern going by the wayside and Pioneer becoming Legacy 3.0 once Post-Pioneer comes out.
While I can see where you're coming from in regards to rotating formats, I would counter with two points:
1. The longest reach that any rotating format has ever had was 4 years with extended. If we reach out to the apparent trouble-zone of ten years, a player might get their first pack of cards as a high school freshman and have those cards still be legal when they leave the game as a college senior. That type of longevity in a rotating format is all but unheard of.
Nope, when extended was introduced (1999) it was up to 7 years of cards and it rotated every 3 years.The first rotation was in 2002 and ice age, fallen empires, homelands were dropped, next roration was on 2005 and tempest, urza's and masques block went out. At some point they cut extended to 4 years.
I guess that I might be the odd man out here. I see plenty of use in Modern from a practical sense as it is the catch-all format that excludes reserve list cards.
When I look at Pioneer, however, I can't help but see it as a stop-gap measure. I can imagine myself seeing a new modern/pioneer format being produced every 10-15 years for the rest of the game's life cycle, which seems a little bit absurd.
I'd rather have standard/big standard/Modern/Eternal formats than have standard and an endless matryoshka doll of "moderns" before you get to eternal formats.
With that said, I admit that I (clearly) don't know everything. A lot of factors from play design to larger print runs to the "new world order" to the end of 3-set blocks and even the redesign of legendary frames may all point to a meaningful need to restart this one time.
All I know is that a non-rotating, sustainable, and (relatively) low cost format that encourages people to focus on how standard feeds into the format instead of chasing old cards... yeah, I can't see that happening.
While I can see where you're coming from in regards to rotating formats, I would counter with two points:
1. The longest reach that any rotating format has ever had was 4 years with extended. If we reach out to the apparent trouble-zone of ten years, a player might get their first pack of cards as a high school freshman and have those cards still be legal when they leave the game as a college senior. That type of longevity in a rotating format is all but unheard of.
Nope, when extended was introduced (1999) it was up to 7 years of cards and it rotated every 3 years.The first rotation was in 2002 and ice age, fallen empires, homelands were dropped, next roration was on 2005 and tempest, urza's and masques block went out. At some point they cut extended to 4 years.
The three block rotation was always awkward and clunky.
I'm expecting Pioneer to be a bunch of proactive decks trying to do their thing plus BG trying to keep everything in check with TSeize and Decay.
Time has shown again and again that fair blue decks and non-Burn aggro decks can only keep up with the formerly mentioned strategies if the format grants them good cantrips, efficient counter spells, powerful and resilient win conditions for 4 mana or less as well as efficient hate bears and quality burn spells.
Pioneer is shaping up to have none of that whatsoever.
Legacy will always remain the fairest non-Standard format in Magic due to exactly that reason. And it will never change unless WotC prints actual Force of Will, actual Daze and actual Wasteland into more modern sets instead of watered down imitations that are 80% less powerful. None of these cards would break Modern, or Standard, or Pauper, or 3-year old kitchen table Magic. The cards that make formats good are cards that scale with the power of the formats they're used in. As I mentioned previously. TSeize, Decay and Push are the only such cards Pioneer is going to have. So either play BG or sling unfair decks against other unfair decks to find out who can draw better, win coinflips, or draw sideboard-hosers or answers to them in the right amount.
I'll stick to EDH, Limited and Cube as well as Legacy, dreaming about those Legendary Duals that would solve so many issues of the format at once. Snow ones were also an option until Modern Horizons cut off that option entirely.
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"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
Izor kinda nailed a lot of my thoughts. Modern is a fast format, very fast. but without Bolt and Path and IoK and a set of kill spells and kinda passable counterspells it would be a LOT faster. Saheeli combo is ALMOST good enough for Modern, people keep almost getting there. but it folds to the interaction of various flavors of control and midrange. now take away the vast majority of that interaction because not long after RTR is when 'too strong for Standard' basically became a meme. even TC probably isn't going to be very good because it's a value card in a format dominated by a dozen combo decks. and then once Wizards bans enough cards for things that are not just the broken combos of previous Standards with better mana bases, you aren't really playing with old Standard favorites, you are playing with the stuff that didn't even make the cut back then. Modern is great because oddball cards from a time when everything wasn't so tightly controlled let you make anything you can dream up. since RTR, and certainly since Khans, they have printed very few of those cards. there are no Tron lands, no toys to make a flavor of Affinity. it is cards all doing the exact same thing, sometimes just doing it better. I hope that when the dust settles and the mass bannings are over that it is fun for people to play, but a format made from the era with the most Standard bans since Urza block because the threats were so powerful with almost no interaction seems dead on arrival.
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I think many will be surprised at what ultimately does get banned honestly. A lot of the more problematic cards from certain areas bcoming in have some amount of answers in sets outside of the standard they belong. Thoughtseize is a good deterrent to the more expensive combos and field of ruin will punish greedy mana bases. White has a couple of flash O-ring effects that seem suitable in addition to the black removal sweets. Red seems underpowered in the burn department though. It's hard to tell where things will wind up as we have never had a format this wide without fetch/shock mana base. That dynamic is what I am interested in. The biggest factor is that decks won't concentrate themselves as games go long. In modern and legacy the more you fetch typically the more relevant your draw step becomes. Your land count in Pioneer is a real factor. One too many you flood more often, one too little you starve! 5 and 6 drops that outright win games will be more valuable, at least in small quantities. All this to say anything broken will rise to the top early and get banned soon enough. Once the format firms up it will be a decent format for players in between formats!
I wonder if this is an attempt to set the size at a manageable level to add to MtG Arena. They could do entire month-long rerelease events for older sets, with drafting events and such. Then make them buyable in the store. Within a few years they have a Modern-like format on their preferred platform.
The only cards that I think need banning are probably Dig through time and Deathrite Shaman. There isn't a single format where those two cards should exist.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The only cards that I think need banning are probably Dig through time and Deathrite Shaman. There isn't a single format where those two cards should exist.
No Fetchs = DRS is just a Grim Lavamancer that can't kill creatures. In RTR Standard it hardly saw any play, even in the mono B devotion decks. Why DRS was good in legacy? It was a birds of paradise (fetchs) that could attack + be a answear to Snapcaster mage + be a answear to vengevine+phoenix(hsrdly)+reanimator strategies. From my point of view DRS is just a bad card in pioneer. No, really in RTR standard it was just a sideboard card (that saw play in modern and legacy) it was hardly a main deck card. People need to see more the reassons for bans.
Over time, we've seen a reduction in diversity of blue-based non-combo decks, with what were once more differentiated aggressive, midrange, and controlling archetypes condensing into a similar core of the strongest cards. Deathrite Shaman's powerful mana-fixing capability allows these decks to commonly play up to four colors, choosing from the most efficient cards in the environment. Its flexible abilities allow the decks to easily switch between aggressive and controlling stances, making them difficult to attack. Additionally, the incidental graveyard hate provided by Deathrite Shaman's abilities automatically protect against offbeat strategies like Dredge and Reanimator without requiring deck-building concessions against the rest of the metagame.
Different flavors of black-green decks have recently been among the best-performing decks in Modern. These decks play many very efficient ways to trade cards one for one with their opponents, such as Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Abrupt Decay. Strong mana acceleration helps these decks trade one for one efficiently enough that they can keep up with the other decks in a large format such as Modern, but normally playing mana acceleration comes at the cost of playing cards that are less powerful in the late game. Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game. Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards. We believe that removing Deathrite Shaman from the format will leave more room for future innovation.
From all these the strong mana acceleration factor comes from a turn 1 DRS into turn 2 with a fetch in the graveyard (soo you can add a mana) turning into a "bird of paradise" that has some value late game. Without fetchs you will hardly have extra mana on turn 2, looking at it this way DRS is worse than gilded goose early game, and outside of having a easy time with graveyard strategies (mostly reanimator and phoenix like cards)(as long as you keep your mana open) the goose is more relevant if you look at all stages of the game.
For DTT i would fear both DTT and TC (Treasure Cruise). Maybe TC has way more chances to be banned (and add another format to its long ban list xD) and i will add that if they ban it it will be due to a strong blue-red tempo deck using it (again). The only good thing about delver in the format is (again) the lack of fetchs but even soo people will still play those cards even if they will only play them on turn 5+.
Over the past several months, the strategic diversity of Legacy has been diminished. Blue decks using Dig Through Time and various combo decks have occupied a greater portion of the metagame, pushing a lot of other decks out of the competitive scene. The problem is that other strategies tend to lose to the blue decks too frequently; they used to be more competitive, but now they fall behind when the blue decks reload for two mana using Dig Through Time. Dig Through Time is banned.
Decks playing the powerful card drawers have been winning a lot, and pushing a lot of other decks down in competitive play. Blue-Red Delver decks, playing efficient creatures, card drawers, burn, and some permission spells have been the most successful. Also, decks focused on more burn, or combination decks using Jeskai Ascendancy, have done well. However, as these decks have occupied a large portion of the competitive metagame, the overall variety of successful decks has been suppressed. It is imbalanced enough that Wizards of the Coast has decided to act. In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck. Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are banned.
Blue-Red Delver decks have been so successful at tournament play that they are hurting the diversity of the format. While other decks can have some success, the diversity is significantly less than it had been. Treasure Cruise is banned.
they have fetches in the form of Fabled passage, but yeah, good point on that. I think you are right that DRS is safe.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
they have fetches in the form of Fabled passage, but yeah, good point on that. I think you are right that DRS is safe.
Fabled Passage isn't an enabler for Deathrite Shaman. It will bring lands into play tapped early. Deathrite needs support to accelerate early. Also Fabled passage is only good in 2 color decks honestly. Things like Satyr Wayfinder will be enabling DRS abilities.
Fabled Passage isn't an enabler for Deathrite Shaman. It will bring lands into play tapped early. Deathrite needs support to accelerate early. Also Fabled passage is only good in 2 color decks honestly. Things like Satyr Wayfinder will be enabling DRS abilities.
If you are base green you can simply play "better" mana creatures.
Its however a much better card if you are just black and not green, in which case you want as many fetchlands to enable Deathrite as you can get.
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Still its a lot worse as the format is not automatically filled with fetchlands, so at times you dont get mana, and you could simply not play Deathrite and make your deck overall less random.
I think just like DRS being weaker in fetchless world, the lack of fetches is also going to make Fatal Push less of a staple than people are thinking. In Modern, so many of the biggest threats cost 2 or less anyway but when you need to hit a 3-4 cost you can often sync it with a fetch-crack turn to make 3-4 cost creatures targetable. I think in Pioneer, there will be a higher proportion of creatures costing 3-4, and not nearly as convenient a way of enabling Revolt as Modern/Frontier have.
I'm just waiting to see what gets banned first: Oath of Nissa or Once Upon a Time.
It's like green is the new blue in this format.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think just like DRS being weaker in fetchless world, the lack of fetches is also going to make Fatal Push less of a staple than people are thinking. In Modern, so many of the biggest threats cost 2 or less anyway but when you need to hit a 3-4 cost you can often sync it with a fetch-crack turn to make 3-4 cost creatures targetable. I think in Pioneer, there will be a higher proportion of creatures costing 3-4, and not nearly as convenient a way of enabling Revolt as Modern/Frontier have.
Fatal Push still has Fabled Passage, which will sky rocket in price since it’s a fetch type land, and Evolving Wilds to work with in Pioneer. Plus there’s still a plethora of cheap costing & cheap saccing artifacts. Black also has enough cheap costing & cheap saccing permanents. Enabling revolt when you want to is far easier in Pioneer than you bothered to check for.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I think just like DRS being weaker in fetchless world, the lack of fetches is also going to make Fatal Push less of a staple than people are thinking. In Modern, so many of the biggest threats cost 2 or less anyway but when you need to hit a 3-4 cost you can often sync it with a fetch-crack turn to make 3-4 cost creatures targetable. I think in Pioneer, there will be a higher proportion of creatures costing 3-4, and not nearly as convenient a way of enabling Revolt as Modern/Frontier have.
Fatal Push still has Fabled Passage, which will sky rocket in price since it’s a fetch type land, and Evolving Wilds to work with in Pioneer. Plus there’s still a plethora of cheap costing & cheap saccing artifacts. Black also has enough cheap costing & cheap saccing permanents. Enabling revolt when you want to is far easier in Pioneer than you bothered to check for.
if the goal of the deck is 'enable revolt', then sure, it's super easy, probably even in Standard. now I am not super up to date with the format, but I am going to guess that a lot of those black or artifact cards aren't actually good enough to see play. especially without much (at least on the surface) for a graveyard strategy looking to be a menace, cards that are only relevant to enable revolt will not see play. again idk for Pioneer, but for Modern, it is something like 'go to Gatherer, look up every card that does what you want to do. narrow it to legal in the format. then immediately cut probably 90% because they suck'. it's not Standard where you take the scraps they give you, having RtR and Kaladesh in the format is a real thing
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
People have already started buying up cards for the format. Siege Rhino went from $1 to $4 two days after the announcement. A lot of high volume buyout gambling is happening right now. Makes me not want to even bother with the format. At this point they can print Pioneer Masters in Summer 2020 or just forget about the format. I also don't feel like playing against Siege Rhino anymore. Everyone was trilled when it was gone.
prices will stabilize, but i absolutely agree. people in this very thread have complained about the cost to get into modern, and this will be no different in very short order. they can't just go and reprint tons of stuff without adversely effecting standard so they forced themselves yet again into a corner where they won't do anything about the secondary market but it consistently causes a problem because of their approach to reprints
People have already started buying up cards for the format. Siege Rhino went from $1 to $4 two days after the announcement. A lot of high volume buyout gambling is happening right now. Makes me not want to even bother with the format. At this point they can print Pioneer Masters in Summer 2020 or just forget about the format. I also don't feel like playing against Siege Rhino anymore. Everyone was trilled when it was gone.
prices will stabilize, but i absolutely agree. people in this very thread have complained about the cost to get into modern, and this will be no different in very short order. they can't just go and reprint tons of stuff without adversely effecting standard so they forced themselves yet again into a corner where they won't do anything about the secondary market but it consistently causes a problem because of their approach to reprints
I think the problem is multi layered... the only way they solve the "reprint problem" is to print it to the ground or very often, so that inventories become very large and prices per card is some arbitrary low number say 2 dollars (and thats for the playable ones, the rest will be worthless in monetary terms)
The toxic groups in the reprint problem are the speculators AND the people who want 2 dollar or lower cards. Both groups are problems. Its not like the cards were not low in price at some point in time. The problem is people do not cherish their cards and only see the cards from a financial perspective. A siege rhino card is the same siege rhino card, whether it was 1$ a week ago or a buyitnow price of 4$ today. If one did not sell off because of rotation or that the cards has been overrun in terms of playability... then pioneer format or no, there is no issue. As long as players (should we even call them that) see cards from a financial point, we will have this problem unless they print it to the ground .
Edit:
That said... the two problem groups are not going to go away, indeed all of us are probably part of the problem since we create the demand. My advice is to get the cards you need if you have a pet deck/cards that you sold off previously if the price is still low. If the price has jumped, then just wait it out, thing is these newer sets inventories are very large... Siege Rhino was actually pretty low in price for its popularity due to the large print run. The people buying out? their money is locked in cardboard. In the meantime I will go out and enjoy the sunshine or whatever weather it is for you out there decklist change ALL the time, just wait for a period when it is not the current hotness. If you choose to chase the current popular decks... then I am afraid its the same old game, in any format.
Thanks for the correction in regards to terminology.
While I can see where you're coming from in regards to rotating formats, I would counter with two points:
1. The longest reach that any rotating format has ever had was 4 years with extended. If we reach out to the apparent trouble-zone of ten years, a player might get their first pack of cards as a high school freshman and have those cards still be legal when they leave the game as a college senior. That type of longevity in a rotating format is all but unheard of.
2. When I hear wizards talking about having a place to use cards that rotate out of standard, I hear a pitch for an almost subscription-esque system.
"If you invest $200-500 in standard sets four times a year for two years. you will likely have an awesome standard deck. If you keep up this investment for 6+ years, you will likely have an awesome pioneer deck"
Six years from now, however, that statement will likely no longer be true. The dream of creating a format with a HUGE array of cards that you can eventually buy your way into purely by buying standard-legal packs is a pipe dream unless the established staples that wizards won't reprint eventually rotate out. I would love to see this sort of format, wherein a patient person can get the best deck from a huge card pool, packing far more power than any one standard environment without ever chasing old cards or Masters-style packs... but it needs rotation (or a banhammer the size of Nevada) to function.
In the meanwhile, Modern is likely to be "eternal 2.0". They can augment the power level and balance of the format with Modern Horizons style supplemental products and have an "eternal" format without the mar of the reserved list.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Yeah I very much see Modern becoming the new Legacy/Vintage. When Post-Pioneer comes out, I think Modern's fate will be 50/50. Modern will need a slew of reprints for the format's price of entry to remain where it is at today (very expensive) and not to devolve into Legacy/Vintage territory (waaaaay too expensive). If WotC can maintain where it is at today (or even a lower) then Modern will be fine. If they cannot, then I imagine Modern going by the wayside and Pioneer becoming Legacy 3.0 once Post-Pioneer comes out.
Nope, when extended was introduced (1999) it was up to 7 years of cards and it rotated every 3 years.The first rotation was in 2002 and ice age, fallen empires, homelands were dropped, next roration was on 2005 and tempest, urza's and masques block went out. At some point they cut extended to 4 years.
I guess that I might be the odd man out here. I see plenty of use in Modern from a practical sense as it is the catch-all format that excludes reserve list cards.
When I look at Pioneer, however, I can't help but see it as a stop-gap measure. I can imagine myself seeing a new modern/pioneer format being produced every 10-15 years for the rest of the game's life cycle, which seems a little bit absurd.
I'd rather have standard/big standard/Modern/Eternal formats than have standard and an endless matryoshka doll of "moderns" before you get to eternal formats.
With that said, I admit that I (clearly) don't know everything. A lot of factors from play design to larger print runs to the "new world order" to the end of 3-set blocks and even the redesign of legendary frames may all point to a meaningful need to restart this one time.
All I know is that a non-rotating, sustainable, and (relatively) low cost format that encourages people to focus on how standard feeds into the format instead of chasing old cards... yeah, I can't see that happening.
The three block rotation was always awkward and clunky.
Time has shown again and again that fair blue decks and non-Burn aggro decks can only keep up with the formerly mentioned strategies if the format grants them good cantrips, efficient counter spells, powerful and resilient win conditions for 4 mana or less as well as efficient hate bears and quality burn spells.
Pioneer is shaping up to have none of that whatsoever.
Legacy will always remain the fairest non-Standard format in Magic due to exactly that reason. And it will never change unless WotC prints actual Force of Will, actual Daze and actual Wasteland into more modern sets instead of watered down imitations that are 80% less powerful. None of these cards would break Modern, or Standard, or Pauper, or 3-year old kitchen table Magic. The cards that make formats good are cards that scale with the power of the formats they're used in. As I mentioned previously. TSeize, Decay and Push are the only such cards Pioneer is going to have. So either play BG or sling unfair decks against other unfair decks to find out who can draw better, win coinflips, or draw sideboard-hosers or answers to them in the right amount.
I'll stick to EDH, Limited and Cube as well as Legacy, dreaming about those Legendary Duals that would solve so many issues of the format at once. Snow ones were also an option until Modern Horizons cut off that option entirely.
- Last Word
Abrade, Fatal Push, Dreadbore, Kolaghan's Command, Assassin's Trophy, etc, are all really good answer cards. Also, the format has the Leylines, Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, etc for dealing with other kinds of problems.
The only cards that I think need banning are probably Dig through time and Deathrite Shaman. There isn't a single format where those two cards should exist.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No Fetchs = DRS is just a Grim Lavamancer that can't kill creatures. In RTR Standard it hardly saw any play, even in the mono B devotion decks. Why DRS was good in legacy? It was a birds of paradise (fetchs) that could attack + be a answear to Snapcaster mage + be a answear to vengevine+phoenix(hsrdly)+reanimator strategies. From my point of view DRS is just a bad card in pioneer. No, really in RTR standard it was just a sideboard card (that saw play in modern and legacy) it was hardly a main deck card. People need to see more the reassons for bans.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-and-restricted-update-2018-07-02
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-decks/february-3-2014-dci-banned-restricted-list-announcement-2014-02-03
From all these the strong mana acceleration factor comes from a turn 1 DRS into turn 2 with a fetch in the graveyard (soo you can add a mana) turning into a "bird of paradise" that has some value late game. Without fetchs you will hardly have extra mana on turn 2, looking at it this way DRS is worse than gilded goose early game, and outside of having a easy time with graveyard strategies (mostly reanimator and phoenix like cards)(as long as you keep your mana open) the goose is more relevant if you look at all stages of the game.
For DTT i would fear both DTT and TC (Treasure Cruise). Maybe TC has way more chances to be banned (and add another format to its long ban list xD) and i will add that if they ban it it will be due to a strong blue-red tempo deck using it (again). The only good thing about delver in the format is (again) the lack of fetchs but even soo people will still play those cards even if they will only play them on turn 5+.
legacy
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/september-28-2015-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-09-28
modern
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-01-19
Legacy Treasure Cruise (almost 3 8m prior to the ban of DTT in legacy)
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-01-19
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Fabled Passage isn't an enabler for Deathrite Shaman. It will bring lands into play tapped early. Deathrite needs support to accelerate early. Also Fabled passage is only good in 2 color decks honestly. Things like Satyr Wayfinder will be enabling DRS abilities.
If you are base green you can simply play "better" mana creatures.
Its however a much better card if you are just black and not green, in which case you want as many fetchlands to enable Deathrite as you can get.
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Still its a lot worse as the format is not automatically filled with fetchlands, so at times you dont get mana, and you could simply not play Deathrite and make your deck overall less random.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
It's like green is the new blue in this format.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Fatal Push still has Fabled Passage, which will sky rocket in price since it’s a fetch type land, and Evolving Wilds to work with in Pioneer. Plus there’s still a plethora of cheap costing & cheap saccing artifacts. Black also has enough cheap costing & cheap saccing permanents. Enabling revolt when you want to is far easier in Pioneer than you bothered to check for.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
if the goal of the deck is 'enable revolt', then sure, it's super easy, probably even in Standard. now I am not super up to date with the format, but I am going to guess that a lot of those black or artifact cards aren't actually good enough to see play. especially without much (at least on the surface) for a graveyard strategy looking to be a menace, cards that are only relevant to enable revolt will not see play. again idk for Pioneer, but for Modern, it is something like 'go to Gatherer, look up every card that does what you want to do. narrow it to legal in the format. then immediately cut probably 90% because they suck'. it's not Standard where you take the scraps they give you, having RtR and Kaladesh in the format is a real thing
We will need one for Historic too!!
prices will stabilize, but i absolutely agree. people in this very thread have complained about the cost to get into modern, and this will be no different in very short order. they can't just go and reprint tons of stuff without adversely effecting standard so they forced themselves yet again into a corner where they won't do anything about the secondary market but it consistently causes a problem because of their approach to reprints
I think the problem is multi layered... the only way they solve the "reprint problem" is to print it to the ground or very often, so that inventories become very large and prices per card is some arbitrary low number say 2 dollars (and thats for the playable ones, the rest will be worthless in monetary terms)
The toxic groups in the reprint problem are the speculators AND the people who want 2 dollar or lower cards. Both groups are problems. Its not like the cards were not low in price at some point in time. The problem is people do not cherish their cards and only see the cards from a financial perspective. A siege rhino card is the same siege rhino card, whether it was 1$ a week ago or a buyitnow price of 4$ today. If one did not sell off because of rotation or that the cards has been overrun in terms of playability... then pioneer format or no, there is no issue. As long as players (should we even call them that) see cards from a financial point, we will have this problem unless they print it to the ground .
Edit:
That said... the two problem groups are not going to go away, indeed all of us are probably part of the problem since we create the demand. My advice is to get the cards you need if you have a pet deck/cards that you sold off previously if the price is still low. If the price has jumped, then just wait it out, thing is these newer sets inventories are very large... Siege Rhino was actually pretty low in price for its popularity due to the large print run. The people buying out? their money is locked in cardboard. In the meantime I will go out and enjoy the sunshine or whatever weather it is for you out there decklist change ALL the time, just wait for a period when it is not the current hotness. If you choose to chase the current popular decks... then I am afraid its the same old game, in any format.
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Oooh Dicey:
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