Yes I would like a 21/21 legendary with flying, indestructible, regenerating, protection from everything, trample, haste, and double strike.
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Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I agree with everything you say, specially about overreacting on internet forums for no apparent reason.
Also, it has been said there's a theme on "building your own monsters" so that's most likely it, and we can pointlessly speculate on that. You get creatures that can be targeted by certain spells that will give your creature certain stuff. I want to think that it will be like the dice on Dice Forge, you know. You have a basis, then you customize your creatures as the game goes along.
Oh to prove my theory further it’s not the first time of creatures gaining keyword abilities permanently rather than temporary (and yes aware some depend on what it sees in play)
Well it’s officially coming to together to me now (well some other people probably beat me)
But I think it’s counters that adds keywords to creatures is what the crazy mechanic is and those double sided things has the chosen ones
Probably simply the most known evergreen keywords
If we get a little crazy with the speculation it could be that the double-sided cards are something like the Hearthstone "Discover" mechanic: you randonly decide which side of the card you get and each side imparts a different keyword.
Well it’s officially coming to together to me now (well some other people probably beat me)
But I think it’s counters that adds keywords to creatures is what the crazy mechanic is and those double sided things has the chosen ones
Probably simply the most known evergreen keywords
If we get a little crazy with the speculation it could be that the double-sided cards are something like the Hearthstone "Discover" mechanic: you randonly decide which side of the card you get and each side imparts a different keyword.
Yea but there’s lots and of keywords evergreen/deciduous/for one set you name it it would be only one keyword per side if that’s the case I think it’s punch outs like amonkhet did to present for each “(keyword name) counter” probably the evergreen ones is what they will focus on
Well it’s officially coming to together to me now (well some other people probably beat me)
But I think it’s counters that adds keywords to creatures is what the crazy mechanic is and those double sided things has the chosen ones
Probably simply the most known evergreen keywords
If we get a little crazy with the speculation it could be that the double-sided cards are something like the Hearthstone "Discover" mechanic: you randonly decide which side of the card you get and each side imparts a different keyword.
Yea but there’s lots and of keywords evergreen/deciduous/for one set you name it it would be only one keyword per side if that’s the case I think it’s punch outs like amonkhet did to present for each “(keyword name) counter” probably the evergreen ones is what they will focus on
Yes, there are technical, conceptual, and logistical barriers but they are promising something new and cool. Your idea may be closer to feasible.
Also when excluding evergreened keywords:
Dominaria (new nostalgia set) shares nothing except Kicker with Time Spiral Block (the original nostalgia set).
BFZ Block shares nothing except Landfall with ZEN Block.
Mirrodin Block shares nothing with Scars Block.
Innistrad Block shares nothing except Transform with Shadows Block.
Ravnica infamously shares nothing with the Return or Guild Blocks.
So I recall this was a "solid speculation" to assume keywords would return.
What a way to twist informations. Basically what you are actually saying is that every return block also had a return mechanic (scars of mirrodin had imprint, so...)
Ravnica is an exception, but we can argue that the guild itself are mechanic, or that ravnica 3 had convoke
Seeing that many Theros mechanics were popular, there was a 99% chance to have at least one of them return
And seeing the leaks, this 99% turns into a 100% and the returning mechanics are actually 2, what a wonder
Pretending a new plane and a known plane to be the same makes no sense. We know Theros' major races and classes. We know there will surely be zombies and minotaurs and no vampires, for example. We know nothing about Ikoria.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Kiora going to Ikoria with her new friend Iora from Fiora.
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Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Also when excluding evergreened keywords:
Dominaria (new nostalgia set) shares nothing except Kicker with Time Spiral Block (the original nostalgia set).
BFZ Block shares nothing except Landfall with ZEN Block.
Mirrodin Block shares nothing with Scars Block.
Innistrad Block shares nothing except Transform with Shadows Block.
Ravnica infamously shares nothing with the Return or Guild Blocks.
So I recall this was a "solid speculation" to assume keywords would return.
What a way to twist informations. Basically what you are actually saying is that every return block also had a return mechanic (scars of mirrodin had imprint, so...)
Ravnica is an exception, but we can argue that the guild itself are mechanic, or that ravnica 3 had convoke
Seeing that many Theros mechanics were popular, there was a 99% chance to have at least one of them return
And seeing the leaks, this 99% turns into a 100% and the returning mechanics are actually 2, what a wonder
Pretending a new plane and a known plane to be the same makes no sense. We know Theros' major races and classes. We know there will surely be zombies and minotaurs and no vampires, for example. We know nothing about Ikoria.
Oh no you don't buster. I missed one keyword, imprint. Otherwise my point stands.
Its that almost every "return" set has had 0-1 returning nonevergreened keywords. The fact Theros has 3 is actually an anomaly compared to the rest of the return sets. As Wizards doesn't usually doesn't design a set like that.
As by your own words of: "Seeing that many Theros mechanics were popular, there was a 99% chance to have at least one of them return"
Is a a boldfaced statement as outside of Ravnica, each plane effectively wears a keyword as a hat with examples like Innistrad is the "Transform Plane" and Zendikar is the "Landfall Plane". It wearing multiple keyword hats is more of an oddity in Wizards design philosophy.
Also is not about subtypes which you are trying to steer the conversation towards.
Kamigawa, Kaladesh, Ixalan, Amonkhet, Alara, Kylem, Eldraine, and Lorwyn are unknown factors because we haven't returned to them yet.
The reason for the above list of unreturned-to planes is because those are in fact a variable that can't be factored until the plane has been revisited. Eldraine counts because it is a known plane. We are traveling next to Theros, a known plane. Then we are traveling to Ikoria, an unknown plane. Then we are traveling to Zendikar, a known plane. That if the pattern is correct the next one will be a new plane followed by a return plane. In that we could hypothetically after Zendikar Rising return to somewhere like Eldraine.
You want to see how Timespiral Block does an actual return plane, and why Theros is actually more akin to it than any other return plane?
Keywords introduced in this block: Split second, Suspend, Vanishing
Keywords reused from the past: Bloodthirst, Buyback, Convoke, Cycling, Double strike, Dredge, Echo, Flanking, Flashback, Graft, Hellbent, Indestructible, Kicker, Landcycling, Madness, Morph, Rampage, Scry, Shadow, Storm, Transmute (No keywords from the Kamigawa block were reused).
And you know what the only evergreen keywords, that weren't introduced out of that whole list were?
Double strike, Indestructible, Scry
Meanwhile you are statistically more likely to see a single keyword return from a previous set in how modern return sets are designed. That Theros having three returning keywords, even if its just two if we give you the fact that one is unkeyworded (which matters little with things akin to Ferocious), is still a statistical anomaly, even more so than Ravnica at this point as we have returned to Ravnica twice at this point and both times it has carried nothing over.
Adventure, Adamant, Food
Unless Wizards has changed their philosophy on retun planes, one of these is the true keyword hat for Eldraine. Adamant is the most likely to be not the hat as it might've pulled poorly or is just generic enough. Which leaves you with Adventure or Food. Assuming Food becomes akin to Vehicles in being used outside of its home plane (Kaladesh for Vehicles, Equipment for Mirrodin), then the only returning mechanic for Eldraine is Adventure.
Oh to prove my theory further it’s not the first time of creatures gaining keyword abilities permanently rather than temporary (and yes aware some depend on what it sees in play)
None of those gets keywords permanently. But we have cards like Riding the Dilu Horse, cards with exert mechanic etc. Those are logistical nightmare and a failure at design, but with proper physical representation on the battlefield they would be interesting addition to the game (although non-permanents adding keywords to permanents undermines the existence of auras and equipment).
Its that almost every "return" set has had 0-1 returning nonevergreened keywords.
Out of 6 returns, only 1 didn't have a returning mechanic. The only exception is a plane where there are ten factions that, even if they change keyword everytime, keep their mechanical identity everytime. I think you need to improve the way you make statistics
(by the way, zendikar had another returning mechanic: allies. we even have a case for eldrazi spawn)..
Zendikar 3 will have returning mechanics as well. There will surely be allies and maybe landfall and traps too.
And we know the card types too: we will goblin, elves, vampires, kor and so on.
So we know more about zendikar 3 than Ikoria too, simply because it's a return and returns need less information.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
[quote from="Ryperior74 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/815351-new-info-about-ikoria?comment=29"]Oh to prove my theory further it’s not the first time of creatures gaining keyword abilities permanently rather than temporary (and yes aware some depend on what it sees in play)
None of those gets keywords permanently. But we have cards like Riding the Dilu Horse, cards with exert mechanic etc. Those are logistical nightmare and a failure at design, but with proper physical representation on the battlefield they would be interesting addition to the game (although non-permanents adding keywords to permanents undermines the existence of auras and equipment).
</blockquote>
Dude read my comment again I already said these cards are based on what they see rather than permanent (however the delve one is permanent)
I’m not saying the mechanics were based on those I’m saying they probably making a permanent version
Its that almost every "return" set has had 0-1 returning nonevergreened keywords. The fact Theros has 3 is actually an anomaly compared to the rest of the return sets. As Wizards doesn't usually doesn't design a set like that.
BfZ had Rally which was the ally mechanic given a keyword.
SoI had the 4 monster tribes and human tribal.
Ravnica 3 monstrous originally and consider a returning mechanic until they narrowed it down and added flavor to make it adapt. All Ravnicas used hybrid and split cards as well.
Dominaria on the other had was much more like a new world. They had to figure out a new identity for the world and had a set set cut so its unknown if they would have anymore returning mechanics. Maro mentions they wanted to use cycling and flashback as well in the set but Amonkhet had already used cycling and aftermath itself is a rift on flashback already.
If your counting "heroic" being in the set (the fact its spelled out means its not gonna be a huge theme) then flashback was in SoI since they made cards like Startled Awake and Giestblast to feel flashback like and Accursed Witch for being a curse (they wanted to have more curses but they ended being cut). On the note of cutting stuff affinity was planned for Mirrodin 2 (with it only being on colored non-artifacts) but development was afraid they couldn't balance and end up broke like last time. Maro said said a number of times they try to bring back at least one old mechanic now in modern design and for return sets they start off with seeing what old stuff they can bring back from the first few sets.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
So beyond all of this needless banter we can deduce that each revisit contains at least one core factor that connects the revisit to the original (or previous visitations).
Ravnica II -> Guilds
B. for Zendikar -> Landfall
S. of Mirrodin -> Imprint and heavy artifact theme
S. Over Innistrad -> DSCs
Dominaria -> Kicker
Rav III -> Convoke, guilds
Would it be cool if they redid all aspects of a previous visit in a new one? Sure. But that's not very imaginative and quite boring. There was a reason they did 3-, then 2-set blocks at the time: further expansion on the set's initial themes. Now it's different. From a flavour perspective, their reprinting of Sagas actually fits into the theme, even though it was "borrowed" from a set that has no correlation flavourwise to Theros at all (Dominaria). So it's ok to have an anchor of some sort from the original and expand on new design space in future designs.
Let's leave it at that and have cake in the meantime.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
My initial gut reaction is that keyword tokens create memory problems as they aren't easily symbolized by non-counter means in the way that dice can symbolize +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters...
...and then I remember that my playgroup can routinely remember that a dorito is an eternalized Adorned Pouncer and distinguish it from a soldier token being represented by a marble.
[quote from="Ryperior74 »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/815351-new-info-about-ikoria?comment=29"]Oh to prove my theory further it’s not the first time of creatures gaining keyword abilities permanently rather than temporary (and yes aware some depend on what it sees in play)
None of those gets keywords permanently. But we have cards like Riding the Dilu Horse, cards with exert mechanic etc. Those are logistical nightmare and a failure at design, but with proper physical representation on the battlefield they would be interesting addition to the game (although non-permanents adding keywords to permanents undermines the existence of auras and equipment).
</blockquote>
Dude read my comment again I already said these cards are based on what they see rather than permanent (however the delve one is permanent)
I’m not saying the mechanics were based on those I’m saying they probably making a permanent version
Emphasis mine. You have written that those cards gain keywords permanently. They do not. Note that I have removed from the list creatures that actually gain keywords permanently.
My initial gut reaction is that keyword tokens create memory problems as they aren't easily symbolized by non-counter means in the way that dice can symbolize +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters...
...and then I remember that my playgroup can routinely remember that a dorito is an eternalized Adorned Pouncer and distinguish it from a soldier token being represented by a marble.
Probably not the end of the world.
For casual play certainly, but at more competitive levels not maintaining proper game state is penalized infraction. Its better for players to focus gameplay decisions rather mental administrative work. The less stuff that cannot be represented physically the better.
I think it’s referring to the double sided TOKENS seen in many other sets. Many pre-releases have had double sided token cards, like how Eldritch Moon had double sided Zombie/Werwolf tokens. It’s nothing new or special. Just two tokens in one card. I’m not sure why they listed them as counters.
I think it’s referring to the double sided TOKENS seen in many other sets. Many pre-releases have had double sided token cards, like how Eldritch Moon had double sided Zombie/Werwolf tokens. It’s nothing new or special. Just two tokens in one card. I’m not sure why they listed them as counters.
Yesterday's Update for Arena includes changes that might hint at two irregularly returning abilities getting keyworded, possibly to be available as options for mutate keyword counters:
Cards that deal damage based on their Toughness now use the term "Backbone" in ability hangers.
Cards that can assign damage as if they had not been blocked now use the term "Unstoppable" in their ability hangers.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Also, it has been said there's a theme on "building your own monsters" so that's most likely it, and we can pointlessly speculate on that. You get creatures that can be targeted by certain spells that will give your creature certain stuff. I want to think that it will be like the dice on Dice Forge, you know. You have a basis, then you customize your creatures as the game goes along.
So if it means I can have a flying, flanking, soul shift 15, undying, infected beeble knight spirit then I'm sold.
*sigh* One can only hope.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
And twice so far it’s ben whole board as well
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/un-seen-2-electric-bugaloo-2014-11-10
If we get a little crazy with the speculation it could be that the double-sided cards are something like the Hearthstone "Discover" mechanic: you randonly decide which side of the card you get and each side imparts a different keyword.
Yea but there’s lots and of keywords evergreen/deciduous/for one set you name it it would be only one keyword per side if that’s the case I think it’s punch outs like amonkhet did to present for each “(keyword name) counter” probably the evergreen ones is what they will focus on
Yes, there are technical, conceptual, and logistical barriers but they are promising something new and cool. Your idea may be closer to feasible.
What a way to twist informations. Basically what you are actually saying is that every return block also had a return mechanic (scars of mirrodin had imprint, so...)
Ravnica is an exception, but we can argue that the guild itself are mechanic, or that ravnica 3 had convoke
Seeing that many Theros mechanics were popular, there was a 99% chance to have at least one of them return
And seeing the leaks, this 99% turns into a 100% and the returning mechanics are actually 2, what a wonder
Pretending a new plane and a known plane to be the same makes no sense. We know Theros' major races and classes. We know there will surely be zombies and minotaurs and no vampires, for example. We know nothing about Ikoria.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
What was that large power ranger talking "aboat"?
Its that almost every "return" set has had 0-1 returning nonevergreened keywords. The fact Theros has 3 is actually an anomaly compared to the rest of the return sets. As Wizards doesn't usually doesn't design a set like that.
As by your own words of: "Seeing that many Theros mechanics were popular, there was a 99% chance to have at least one of them return"
Is a a boldfaced statement as outside of Ravnica, each plane effectively wears a keyword as a hat with examples like Innistrad is the "Transform Plane" and Zendikar is the "Landfall Plane". It wearing multiple keyword hats is more of an oddity in Wizards design philosophy.
Also it is three.
Pious Wayfarer has constellation.
Hero of the Nyxborn has unkeyworded heroic.
Threnody Singer has devotion.
Also is not about subtypes which you are trying to steer the conversation towards.
The reason for the above list of unreturned-to planes is because those are in fact a variable that can't be factored until the plane has been revisited. Eldraine counts because it is a known plane. We are traveling next to Theros, a known plane. Then we are traveling to Ikoria, an unknown plane. Then we are traveling to Zendikar, a known plane. That if the pattern is correct the next one will be a new plane followed by a return plane. In that we could hypothetically after Zendikar Rising return to somewhere like Eldraine.
You want to see how Timespiral Block does an actual return plane, and why Theros is actually more akin to it than any other return plane?
Futureshifted keywords: Absorb, Aura swap, Delve, Fateseal, Fortify, Frenzy, Grandeur, Gravestorm, Poisonous, Transfigure, Typecycling
Evergreen keywords introduced: Deathtouch, Flash, Lifelink, Reach, Shroud
Keywords reused from the past: Bloodthirst, Buyback, Convoke, Cycling, Double strike, Dredge, Echo, Flanking, Flashback, Graft, Hellbent, Indestructible, Kicker, Landcycling, Madness, Morph, Rampage, Scry, Shadow, Storm, Transmute (No keywords from the Kamigawa block were reused).
And you know what the only evergreen keywords, that weren't introduced out of that whole list were?
Meanwhile you are statistically more likely to see a single keyword return from a previous set in how modern return sets are designed. That Theros having three returning keywords, even if its just two if we give you the fact that one is unkeyworded (which matters little with things akin to Ferocious), is still a statistical anomaly, even more so than Ravnica at this point as we have returned to Ravnica twice at this point and both times it has carried nothing over.
Unless Wizards has changed their philosophy on retun planes, one of these is the true keyword hat for Eldraine. Adamant is the most likely to be not the hat as it might've pulled poorly or is just generic enough. Which leaves you with Adventure or Food. Assuming Food becomes akin to Vehicles in being used outside of its home plane (Kaladesh for Vehicles, Equipment for Mirrodin), then the only returning mechanic for Eldraine is Adventure.
Out of 6 returns, only 1 didn't have a returning mechanic. The only exception is a plane where there are ten factions that, even if they change keyword everytime, keep their mechanical identity everytime. I think you need to improve the way you make statistics
(by the way, zendikar had another returning mechanic: allies. we even have a case for eldrazi spawn)..
Zendikar 3 will have returning mechanics as well. There will surely be allies and maybe landfall and traps too.
And we know the card types too: we will goblin, elves, vampires, kor and so on.
So we know more about zendikar 3 than Ikoria too, simply because it's a return and returns need less information.
Dude read my comment again I already said these cards are based on what they see rather than permanent (however the delve one is permanent)
I’m not saying the mechanics were based on those I’m saying they probably making a permanent version
BfZ had Rally which was the ally mechanic given a keyword.
SoI had the 4 monster tribes and human tribal.
Ravnica 3 monstrous originally and consider a returning mechanic until they narrowed it down and added flavor to make it adapt. All Ravnicas used hybrid and split cards as well.
Dominaria on the other had was much more like a new world. They had to figure out a new identity for the world and had a set set cut so its unknown if they would have anymore returning mechanics. Maro mentions they wanted to use cycling and flashback as well in the set but Amonkhet had already used cycling and aftermath itself is a rift on flashback already.
If your counting "heroic" being in the set (the fact its spelled out means its not gonna be a huge theme) then flashback was in SoI since they made cards like Startled Awake and Giestblast to feel flashback like and Accursed Witch for being a curse (they wanted to have more curses but they ended being cut). On the note of cutting stuff affinity was planned for Mirrodin 2 (with it only being on colored non-artifacts) but development was afraid they couldn't balance and end up broke like last time. Maro said said a number of times they try to bring back at least one old mechanic now in modern design and for return sets they start off with seeing what old stuff they can bring back from the first few sets.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Ravnica II -> Guilds
B. for Zendikar -> Landfall
S. of Mirrodin -> Imprint and heavy artifact theme
S. Over Innistrad -> DSCs
Dominaria -> Kicker
Rav III -> Convoke, guilds
Would it be cool if they redid all aspects of a previous visit in a new one? Sure. But that's not very imaginative and quite boring. There was a reason they did 3-, then 2-set blocks at the time: further expansion on the set's initial themes. Now it's different. From a flavour perspective, their reprinting of Sagas actually fits into the theme, even though it was "borrowed" from a set that has no correlation flavourwise to Theros at all (Dominaria). So it's ok to have an anchor of some sort from the original and expand on new design space in future designs.
Let's leave it at that and have cake in the meantime.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
https://scryfall.com/card/cmb1/28/recycla-bird
Maybe something like this
...and then I remember that my playgroup can routinely remember that a dorito is an eternalized Adorned Pouncer and distinguish it from a soldier token being represented by a marble.
Probably not the end of the world.
For casual play certainly, but at more competitive levels not maintaining proper game state is penalized infraction. Its better for players to focus gameplay decisions rather mental administrative work. The less stuff that cannot be represented physically the better.
https://www.manaleak.com/magic-the-gathering/images/double_sided_foil_zombie_eldritch_moon_spoilers.jpg
It's for sure not that because if so they definitely would've said token rather than keyword counter.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR