we like to think this, but what magic players are in the game strictly for X format?
its a misconception. even the people who strictly draft often buy limited release product. the people who play commander are into everything. legacy players will pick up what they need from new sets. yes, there are a wide array of ways to play magic, but magic players gobble up everything thrown at them. even more so when you start planting cards for other formats in products. we like to think they don't market products at the entire market, but they really do and we eat it up.
how many commander precons have sold because of a legacy plant. how many secret lairs sold because people liked the art, or are into goblins. the grim reality is magic products are aimed toward magic players. its our own little bubbles that make us think they're not aimed at us, or a particular subset of players.
hell that doesn't even account for the lotto aspect of things. how many packs have you seen cracked playing the *insert card name* lotto.
they want dollars. they're not going to design and release products aimed squarely at one audience when they can aim it all of them. the minute we start accepting that fact we can stop fooling ourselves and push for legitimate change.
Its not a misconception. While there are definitely people who buy everything Magic as I pointed out in my earlier post there isn't actually that many. When I started I was a standard only player. Then I became a standard and Commander player who had no interest in any masters set because they didn't have things I wanted for commander. Now I'm a strictly arena player so no physical products appeal to me. Further you only have to look at this forum discussing Unsanctioned to see a massive number of people whom it isn't for. The same for the previous secret lair. Within the first 10 posts at least 3 say the product isn't for them. So its rather ridiculous to say every magic product is for every magic player.
I agree with both sides, but to back up Xcric if products like unsanctioned weren't trying to cast a wide net, why do they have full at lands. Especially ones that are distinctly not funny. Sure there's a certain type of player that loves uncards. But you can't sell a product that only a few 1000 people will buy. You need to turn a prophet. That's not nessicarily bad, it's just business. I do think it's kinda crazy how many products they are releasing these days though.
So in other words, "Move along. Nothing to see here!" right?
'buster
Effectively, yes. Much pearl clutching over a company offering products to people who want to buy them, when there's ultimately no shame there. You buy it or you don't.
To echo Patch, this doesn't really affect stores as much as some people seem to think. I work at a relatively small store. If we're being honest, of the stores in my area, the one I work at would be the first to feel it if the game started to go under. We bought the first flight of Secret Lair Drops, flipped most of the ones we bought for twice what we paid within the first two weeks, have one left as prize support for our Commander League, and are now just sitting on the snow lands and goblins.
We at the shop have plenty to complain about MTG wise, but stuff like Secret Lair isn't even on our radar.
While I find the constant products annoying, it’s not so bad. Those who want the secret lairs get them, and those who do not will not. I don’t feel like I missed out on anything b my skipping the others because I could care less about their contents or collecting those cards. If this one has Theros gods, it’ll be the first I care for. If not, Ill skip it. I think too many players have this mentality of needing to have every exclusive product just in case it becomes an investment in the future. How about players just pursue what actually interests them and let go of that hoarding mentality?
Okay great. A lot do that. Most dont. Wotc exploits that for profit. Cant really dispute that
To echo Patch, this doesn't really affect stores as much as some people seem to think. I work at a relatively small store. If we're being honest, of the stores in my area, the one I work at would be the first to feel it if the game started to go under. We bought the first flight of Secret Lair Drops, flipped most of the ones we bought for twice what we paid within the first two weeks, have one left as prize support for our Commander League, and are now just sitting on the snow lands and goblins.
We at the shop have plenty to complain about MTG wise, but stuff like Secret Lair isn't even on our radar.
The point is that WotC sells directly to consumers.
The fact that you bought and sold the SLD for double the price (plus shipping) just shows that you happen to have enough customers that are willing to pay an extraordinary premium for what they could simply order themselves.
This entire SLD thing has to be compared to what the FromTheVault sets did as they essentially the same, selling a bunch of premium singles directly.
FTV pushed a bunch of money into stores, as a "thank you" for stores and thats exactly what it was.
This product however leeches on the people are does nothing for the stores in particular, if people still buy the product for a massive extra at a store, great, loyal customers that want the stores are pretty much exactly what a store needs to stay alive at this point in time.
----
And if the "trend" of selling directly to customers and circumventing the Local Gaming Stores is not giving you any creeps, then you might be bit naive for what the future holds for you (especially when WotC starts to sell overall everything directly, then you have to compete against a competitor selling the stuff to you and to customers, which is the worst situation to be as a retailer as it breaks the entire chain of distribution).
So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
Pretty easy, print a bunch like for any other set, sell them to LGS stores and let them hand them out.
People that want them go to the stores, the stores make a profit and people play Magic.
Stores order product based on what they decide is appropriate, if they need more product, simply have a 2nd wave ; its the same for all the products WotC produces.
If you want to limit it, sell X amount to a store, keep it low so its special, instead of flooding a market with it (as the vast majority of people buy it to flip them to people that are unaware of the drops and no Magic news).
----
As it is right now, Direct to consumer sells will go up, especially if people buy these in high numbers, that is by nature working against the LGS (which makes sense for the company to rip the rewards for direct to consumer sells, but its a crippling trend that has no future for a LGS if this continues).
This is my take on these upcoming drops - 5 Drops = one for each color. "Look to the Stars" slogan - *Original* Theros's Gods in Constellation Frames + Signature spells
This is my take on these upcoming drops - 5 Drops = one for each color. "Look to the Stars" slogan - *Original* Theros's Gods in Constellation Frames + Signature spells
I hope it has signature spells for the mono color gods as well. But which would they include? I’m sure the original god weapons are a given. I’d love classic and thematic spells with alternate art depicting the gods casting them. Like the intervention cycle, except with other cards like a Counterspell with Thassa art
This is my take on these upcoming drops - 5 Drops = one for each color. "Look to the Stars" slogan - *Original* Theros's Gods in Constellation Frames + Signature spells
That's funny, bcause I took "Look to the Stars" as a reference to the World Championships. Given that they are doing an uneven distribution (5 drops, three days) I'd be surprised if they were all formatted the same.
It’s gotta be Theros Gods Secret Lairs. That’s what I’ll bet my money on. And I hope it’s that, as I won’t be buying any of them. But I imagine some enthusiastically will.
Personally it has gotten to a point where I simply cannot catch up with all the products/formats. Some of my decks have become stale and have no interest in updating them. I have sold some of my collections because they are simply too hard/expensive to complete given some rare Buy a box, judge, or secret lair limited print.
My guess is that many will behave the same. Streamlining their collection, sticking to a format or two (maybe a pet EDH deck). Wizards is trying to upsell us but if we are disciplined with our budget, then we wimply wont spend more in Magic. There is a magic product at every price point/lifestyle.
Overall I believe more cards, more products is good for all.
Okay great. A lot do that. Most dont. Wotc exploits that for profit. Cant really dispute that
I'd hardly call offering a product for which there is obviously demand exploiting - it's just economics 101.
They're overdoing it, but that mostly hurts long-time interest in their own product imo. If there is a new couple of secret lairs every other month, most people that would otherwise love to collect such shiny special cards will just get tired and stop buying those.
The whole issue about circumventing stores is another can of worms - I don't think it is that big of a problem as long as they limit it to exclusive specials. Yes, it sucks that the spiritual predecessor of this product was a bonus for stores and this is kinda the opposite, but it doesn't hurt when we look at it individually. It does send a certain sign though and if they're testing the waters for moving more products to their own distribution platform, that becomes worrying, but we'll have to see if they go further down that route...
Whether this product dies off or not, one thing is pretty sure: WotC will become greedier and greedier with this kind of product and will push constantly decreasing product quality at constantly increasing prices and increasing frequency exactly like they did with the masters products.
Sadly, this kind of product is less likely to fail because people seem to be all too eager to pay an absurd premium price to buy alternate art of cards they never spent more than half a minute thinking about.
I honestly hate saying it, since I've been playing for 20+ years, but this is starting to feel like my exit from the game. Due to life constraints, I haven't been able to play the last couple of years as often as I'd like. I told myself I'd keep my Commander decks for random games, draft on occasion, and focus on my collection of Legend cards that I'd been building up. That way, even if I didn't get to play as often, I still had my connection to the game.
Even a couple years back, I struggled to keep up with buying the singles of every Legend that got released, with Commander gaining popularity. Then, when Throne of Eldraine released last year, the full-art versions meant suddenly I'd need two of everything to keep up, one of which would be pricier. Then, the Secret Lair Drops, that are running alt-art legends at a premium and only had a short buying window. Then the announcement that 2020 would be the year of Commander, with a ton more released. Plus full arts continuing, and now more Secret Lair stuff. I was struggling to keep up then, now I flat out cannot.
So now I'm contemplating selling off my collection as well, and just resigning myself to a maybe a couple drafts a year and the odd commander game.
Such is life, I suppose. I always figured I'd have to slow down playing at some point if adulting and life got in the way, but I never really considered the idea that pricing and sheer numbers would push me out entirely.
They don’t care about ‘buyer fatigue’ because it’s print to demand. 5 people could order it and they’ll keep making these. It’s got to be their safest product for that reason. And they can upcharge a ton for commander players basically. Stop saying, I’ll pass on this or not for me. You’re just complaining to complain. These are cool and we should be glad they print cool stuff we can actually get our hands on
The ones I want/need and can afford are great for me and the others I can ignore.
This new practice of revealing what's in these lairs right as they become available, however, is Predatory with a capital "P". From where I'm standing, it's seeking to trick people into impulse purchases that they wouldn't otherwise take if they had time to weigh the pros and cons and talk about things online. While I respect that WotC needs to show growth, doing so at the cost of their consumers... by using the type of tactics I'd expect from a freemium game... kind of gets me mad.
They don’t care about ‘buyer fatigue’ because it’s print to demand. 5 people could order it and they’ll keep making these. It’s got to be their safest product for that reason.
Print on demand only cuts a little of the costs, but let's say literally 5 people get to buy the product, that would be a net loss for them. They need to pay for a list of things that can be seen as a fixed cost, for example art commission, design and commercials for the product.
Which means that they NEED to sell at least a fixed amount of product to make it profitable or even break even.
In turn, this means that if they start to get a lowering number of purchases and their revenue start to dwindle on this product, they will discontinue it, no matter if it is "printed on demand".
EDIT: admittedly, the margin on these products is probably so high that just a few thousand sells will make them break even.
Not a massive fan of them, especially due to the rate in which they're coming at. But most of all, it's really ******* expensive for a couple of cards if you live in Europe.
Cool art on a lot of them though. Especially the snow lands. To bad you're ****ed if you want more than one of each hehe.
So, it's a company that needs to make a profit to pay the people who own the company. This means anything is fair game. It's not anti-consumer it's pro-owner. If stocks go up then everything is fine. If you want the company to be more responsive to you, you either need to become an owner of the company with significant enough sway, or you need to break up the concept the companies are more responsive to their owners than their consumers or the general public. One way you could do that is by forcing the company to be under public control, with publically assigned owners and a general mandate against profiteering. Another way you could do that is to establish laws and regulations that define what company conduct is acceptable, with significant penalties for violations.
At the end of the day it's just another interesting product people will buy until they don't, and WotC is always changing their Magic products, so does it really matter? They like to keep things fresh.
At the end of the day it's just another interesting product people will buy until they don't, and WotC is always changing their Magic products, so does it really matter? They like to keep things fresh.
Well two acceptions singles from sets and commander decks
I finally realized something and it was largely thanks to someone earlier in this thread...With new products that come out there's that feeling that it's like "Ugh another one I have to buy."
No you don't.
You don't have to buy anything that doesn't interest you. They can go bonkers with products and if one or two interest you, go nuts and buy till you grow tired of it, financially or otherwise.
No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy these whenever they are released. Do whatever makes sense to you and go from there. No sense in quitting a game that makes you happy even if you're not always keeping up with the Jones'.
'buster
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'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
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Effectively, yes. Much pearl clutching over a company offering products to people who want to buy them, when there's ultimately no shame there. You buy it or you don't.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
We at the shop have plenty to complain about MTG wise, but stuff like Secret Lair isn't even on our radar.
Okay great. A lot do that. Most dont. Wotc exploits that for profit. Cant really dispute that
The point is that WotC sells directly to consumers.
The fact that you bought and sold the SLD for double the price (plus shipping) just shows that you happen to have enough customers that are willing to pay an extraordinary premium for what they could simply order themselves.
This entire SLD thing has to be compared to what the FromTheVault sets did as they essentially the same, selling a bunch of premium singles directly.
FTV pushed a bunch of money into stores, as a "thank you" for stores and thats exactly what it was.
This product however leeches on the people are does nothing for the stores in particular, if people still buy the product for a massive extra at a store, great, loyal customers that want the stores are pretty much exactly what a store needs to stay alive at this point in time.
----
And if the "trend" of selling directly to customers and circumventing the Local Gaming Stores is not giving you any creeps, then you might be bit naive for what the future holds for you (especially when WotC starts to sell overall everything directly, then you have to compete against a competitor selling the stuff to you and to customers, which is the worst situation to be as a retailer as it breaks the entire chain of distribution).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Pretty easy, print a bunch like for any other set, sell them to LGS stores and let them hand them out.
People that want them go to the stores, the stores make a profit and people play Magic.
Stores order product based on what they decide is appropriate, if they need more product, simply have a 2nd wave ; its the same for all the products WotC produces.
If you want to limit it, sell X amount to a store, keep it low so its special, instead of flooding a market with it (as the vast majority of people buy it to flip them to people that are unaware of the drops and no Magic news).
----
As it is right now, Direct to consumer sells will go up, especially if people buy these in high numbers, that is by nature working against the LGS (which makes sense for the company to rip the rewards for direct to consumer sells, but its a crippling trend that has no future for a LGS if this continues).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
That's funny, bcause I took "Look to the Stars" as a reference to the World Championships. Given that they are doing an uneven distribution (5 drops, three days) I'd be surprised if they were all formatted the same.
My guess is that many will behave the same. Streamlining their collection, sticking to a format or two (maybe a pet EDH deck). Wizards is trying to upsell us but if we are disciplined with our budget, then we wimply wont spend more in Magic. There is a magic product at every price point/lifestyle.
Overall I believe more cards, more products is good for all.
I'd hardly call offering a product for which there is obviously demand exploiting - it's just economics 101.
They're overdoing it, but that mostly hurts long-time interest in their own product imo. If there is a new couple of secret lairs every other month, most people that would otherwise love to collect such shiny special cards will just get tired and stop buying those.
The whole issue about circumventing stores is another can of worms - I don't think it is that big of a problem as long as they limit it to exclusive specials. Yes, it sucks that the spiritual predecessor of this product was a bonus for stores and this is kinda the opposite, but it doesn't hurt when we look at it individually. It does send a certain sign though and if they're testing the waters for moving more products to their own distribution platform, that becomes worrying, but we'll have to see if they go further down that route...
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
Sadly, this kind of product is less likely to fail because people seem to be all too eager to pay an absurd premium price to buy alternate art of cards they never spent more than half a minute thinking about.
When they start to release must-have cards (or more correctly cards with the illusion of must-have) that's when it becomes a problem.
Box toppers are already close enough to this problem.
Even a couple years back, I struggled to keep up with buying the singles of every Legend that got released, with Commander gaining popularity. Then, when Throne of Eldraine released last year, the full-art versions meant suddenly I'd need two of everything to keep up, one of which would be pricier. Then, the Secret Lair Drops, that are running alt-art legends at a premium and only had a short buying window. Then the announcement that 2020 would be the year of Commander, with a ton more released. Plus full arts continuing, and now more Secret Lair stuff. I was struggling to keep up then, now I flat out cannot.
So now I'm contemplating selling off my collection as well, and just resigning myself to a maybe a couple drafts a year and the odd commander game.
Such is life, I suppose. I always figured I'd have to slow down playing at some point if adulting and life got in the way, but I never really considered the idea that pricing and sheer numbers would push me out entirely.
The ones I want/need and can afford are great for me and the others I can ignore.
This new practice of revealing what's in these lairs right as they become available, however, is Predatory with a capital "P". From where I'm standing, it's seeking to trick people into impulse purchases that they wouldn't otherwise take if they had time to weigh the pros and cons and talk about things online. While I respect that WotC needs to show growth, doing so at the cost of their consumers... by using the type of tactics I'd expect from a freemium game... kind of gets me mad.
Print on demand only cuts a little of the costs, but let's say literally 5 people get to buy the product, that would be a net loss for them. They need to pay for a list of things that can be seen as a fixed cost, for example art commission, design and commercials for the product.
Which means that they NEED to sell at least a fixed amount of product to make it profitable or even break even.
In turn, this means that if they start to get a lowering number of purchases and their revenue start to dwindle on this product, they will discontinue it, no matter if it is "printed on demand".
EDIT: admittedly, the margin on these products is probably so high that just a few thousand sells will make them break even.
Cool art on a lot of them though. Especially the snow lands. To bad you're ****ed if you want more than one of each hehe.
At the end of the day it's just another interesting product people will buy until they don't, and WotC is always changing their Magic products, so does it really matter? They like to keep things fresh.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Well two acceptions singles from sets and commander decks
safe To say those will probably never end
No you don't.
You don't have to buy anything that doesn't interest you. They can go bonkers with products and if one or two interest you, go nuts and buy till you grow tired of it, financially or otherwise.
No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy these whenever they are released. Do whatever makes sense to you and go from there. No sense in quitting a game that makes you happy even if you're not always keeping up with the Jones'.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.