So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
What should they do?
Stop making them and put these reprints in a $4 booster set. Like they should do with ALL cards.
So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
What should they do?
Stop making them and put these reprints in a $4 booster set. Like they should do with ALL cards.
And not everything being a mythic...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
At the end of the day it's just another interesting product people will buy until they don't, and WotC is always changing their Magic products, so does it really matter? They like to keep things fresh.
if by "interesting product" and "keeping things fresh" you mean:
- product designed to be outrageously overpriced
and
- marketing that employs all of the worst freemium mobile game microtransaction tactics to make people spend without thinking
then more power to you.
So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
What should they do?
Stop making them and put these reprints in a $4 booster set. Like they should do with ALL cards.
So they should discontinue all non flagship products and only release things as though they were standard legal sets? I've seen some ridiculous asks here but this one is leagues beyond the others.
MTG is many things to many people so finding the best(Yes, 'best' includes making money for the company that makes this game. If they don't make money they don't keep making the game) way to get the people the things they want is tricky. It is impossible to print everything in a $4 booster because that implies a lot of things about print runs and distribution that they only do standard releases. They can't release every product like that because they are already filling the year with those 4 products.
Lets be real too, the original release schedule of just 4 sets per year is unsustainable as a retail product. Booster sales fall off almost immediately after launch and that big stretch between spring set and fall set is a financial low point. It might have been acceptable when the magic team at wotc was like 10 people, but with all the staffing and weird side stuff they have going on now it's pretty much imperative that they have new stuff out there so sales don't take such big nosedives.
At the end of the day it's just another interesting product people will buy until they don't, and WotC is always changing their Magic products, so does it really matter? They like to keep things fresh.
Is it interesting or fresh though? These are essentially smaller FTVs with less cards for far more money than most are worth, which was how From the Vault worked most of the time. The only real difference is that these come out at seemingly random, and that's about it.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
I'm not really seeing conniptions. I'm seeing a general melaze and boredom to this more than anything else when it comes to this product. The only real anger I'm seeing is how many products are coming out rather than to the product in particular.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
I'm not really seeing conniptions. I'm seeing a general melaze and boredom to this more than anything else when it comes to this product. The only real anger I'm seeing is how many products are coming out rather than to the product in particular.
A conniption is a fit of rage, and I said near at that, which is detectable in a handful of replies as if people are involuntarily obligated to buy these Lairs.
Just ignore what you don’t want. I think the issue is the ability to demonstrate restraint. I only buy products that appeal to me, usually Theros themed or on a plane I admire such as zendikar. If something doesn’t have cards I desire for commander, I avoid it. It’s why I have yet to buy a secret lair.
If these aren’t Theros themed, I won’t be obtaining them either. If they are, it’s a first.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
I'm not angry about these products because of myself. From where I'm standing, Secret lairs can't really be bad for me. Either they're good and they're a positive or they're bad and I ignore them. For most players, that is the start and end of the equation. With that said, there's a predatory element to this release that I don't like as a matter of principle.
To show what I mean, let's first indicate why this event is different from, say, a "one-day-only-sale" at a clothing store:
1. A one-day-sale at most stores put sales prices on items you could purchase at any point. While all secret lairs hold reprints, these items are being marketed in part as unique items, sold for only one day.
2. This isn't an old fashioned sale that requires some sort of effort to learn about and take advantage of. If you watch the championship or hang out on any MTG websites this weekend, you will learn what's in the drop and have what you need to purchase it. Gone are the days of needing to read the newspaper and drive to the mall.
3. VERY few stores would have 10+ unique "one-day-sales" that pressure customers to keep coming in again and again over in the space of 90 days.
So yeah, people compare this to freemium trickery for a reason. Even if it doesn't hurt you or me, the practice of not showing what cards are being sold in advance is likely an attempt to get impulse buys from players with poor impulse control... which makes me kind of sad.
In fact, let me go on the record as saying that this stuff is WORSE than most freemium tricks I've seen in some ways:
1. Getting a single copy might feel incomplete: When I buy a character or set of gear in a Free-to-play app, I don't typically feel the urge to by it again 3 more times (if doing so is even an option). For some players and cards, though (Rat colony and snow covered lands, to list examples that have already been used) getting multiple copies is a very real temptation.
2. The item enters a real economy: In most games, I don't have the ability to sell a special skin, XP-booster, or new character once I've made a microtransaction. For cards, however, we are going to see impulsive buys not only by players who want to use the cards but by collectors who are making snap decisions with the idea that they'll be able to flip it for profit... which may or may not work out.
3. Multiple offers don't obviate each other: If an app offers me multiple chances to buy premium currency (diamonds, tokens, free summon tickets, etc), I won't feel tempted to take every sale that comes up. In many cases, buying top-tier gear or characters for your playstyle would likewise make future sales of similar products a bit less tempting. No matter how many copies of one lair you buy, however, the temptation to buy the next isn't intrinsically diminished.
To be clear:
If these things didn't cost $30-40 a pop, I wouldn't be angry.
If they came out less frequently to ease wallet fatigue, I wouldn't be angry.
If Wizards released what was in them ahead of time so players wouldn't be forced into snap-decisions, I wouldn't be angry.
When you mix all three of those together, though, it's kind of a mess.
I’ll agree the price point and lack of prior information to promote impulse decisions is in poor taste. I understand it fosters hype but it’s not the most genuine marketing.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
You both seem ill-equipped to handle the prospect of short-print cards.
You state its optional, but you fail to understand that by being short-print, these are cards that will gross over time. They will only continue to grow in price because the supply is low. You know what else does short-print runs in card games? Yugioh. Cards that have viability in tournaments and are meant to drive sales because of artificial scarcity. You know what else does artificial scarcity? Companies that sell diamonds.
Turning a blind eye to a problem like short-print runs is just the same as paying for one of those secret lairs.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
You both seem ill-equipped to handle the prospect of short-print cards.
You state its optional, but you fail to understand that by being short-print, these are cards that will gross over time. They will only continue to grow in price because the supply is low. You know what else does short-print runs in card games? Yugioh. Cards that have viability in tournaments and are meant to drive sales because of artificial scarcity. You know what else does artificial scarcity? Companies that sell diamonds.
Turning a blind eye to a problem like short-print runs is just the same as paying for one of those secret lairs.
Examples of what you're talking about include cards like Mana Crypt and Nexus of Fate, very low print run cards that are played. They never made it into packs.
The problem with your statement is that these follow more of the judge promo pattern rather than the limited one off print pattern. These are reprints and if someone wants to play the cards in their deck they can just buy the much cheaper original printing.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
You both seem ill-equipped to handle the prospect of short-print cards.
You state its optional, but you fail to understand that by being short-print, these are cards that will gross over time. They will only continue to grow in price because the supply is low. You know what else does short-print runs in card games? Yugioh. Cards that have viability in tournaments and are meant to drive sales because of artificial scarcity. You know what else does artificial scarcity? Companies that sell diamonds.
Turning a blind eye to a problem like short-print runs is just the same as paying for one of those secret lairs.
Examples of what you're talking about include cards like Nexus of Fate
You are out of your depth. Secret Lair cards get pritned at a lower rate than the average b-a-b promo.
True horror from any game publishing company starts when the audience just rolls with the changes.
Its how loot boxes, pay-or-wait, duplicate leveling, and other insidious tactics got started.
The secret lairs is just an evolution of the exclusive buy-a-box promos.
People rationalizing in their heads why its a good purchase, why its not as bad as it appears.
If it proves such a profitable venture, why not extend that to putting never before seen cards in secret lairs?
All the while people ask themselves how we got to this point.
True horror from any game publishing company starts when the audience just rolls with the changes.
Its how loot boxes, pay-or-wait, duplicate leveling, and other insidious tactics got started.
The secret lairs is just an evolution of the exclusive buy-a-box promos.
People rationalizing in their heads why its a good purchase, why its not as bad as it appears.
If it proves such a profitable venture, why not extend that to putting never before seen cards in secret lairs?
All the while people ask themselves how we got to this point.
That's exactly the point.
Microtransactions started with the horse armour in Oblivion and now we have $60+ AAA videogames that milk players through microtransactions and lootboxes by design.
WotC has shown that they really want to go down the slippery slope with previous "premium" products like the Masters products:
Fitst Modern Masters was a hit, it costed more than a regular set, but was good value for your money.
Second Modern Masters, WotC saw that customers were willing to pay that extra and rised the price considerably.
Then after the first Eternal masters they started to go down the slope: print them more often, rise the price, put fewer and fewer valuable cards among the draft chaff and see how far can we swindle money from these walking wallets.
When the customers started to notice they just put out the same product FOR A HIGHER PRICE (Ultimate Masters).
Then rebranded the Masters products into the Horizons product by adding CARDS THAT YOU CAN'T GET ANYWHERE ELSE that are legal in an eternal format and will probably not be reprinted for years.
I wouldn't be surprised if WotC started rising the price on this line of products then started to add either "hard to obtain anywhere else" cards or "brand new cards" to it.
For example, dishing out a 5 ally fetchlands and a 5 enemy fetchlands SL for $80 each and never reprint them again in any other widely available product for another 3 years.
Or putting Oubliette in those products, so if you need/want a x4 you either have to pay an outrageous amount of money to have them new or a little less to get some in poor conditions from the secondary market, all the while the card itself will never see another wide print-run.
Then the next step is to put SL exclusive cards in there.
If the product is a monetary success and no one voices any gripes with how it is handled because "you don't need to buy it" or "it is meant for collectors, bro/sis", then you can be 100% sure they will roll it down the slippery slope because there is no negative feedback to stop them.
Everything you said is true.
It is actually terrifying when you step back and look at it all.
We may voice our concern, our objection, yet we are few.
So many are caught under the spell.
The playerbase easily in the double digits of millions.
Even if a secret lair box sells a hundred-thousand units at $40 a piece, its still a profitable venture compared to the cost to make it.
And this is because its print to demand unlike past attempts where there was waste and excess in their storehouses.
People are having near-conniptions over something they can 100% ignore. This is starting to approach comedic levels.
You both seem ill-equipped to handle the prospect of short-print cards.
You state its optional, but you fail to understand that by being short-print, these are cards that will gross over time. They will only continue to grow in price because the supply is low. You know what else does short-print runs in card games? Yugioh. Cards that have viability in tournaments and are meant to drive sales because of artificial scarcity. You know what else does artificial scarcity? Companies that sell diamonds.
Turning a blind eye to a problem like short-print runs is just the same as paying for one of those secret lairs.
Fantastic. Still doesn't mean I have to buy it.
'buster
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
So what is to be done? Just kill the whole game? Or maybe we could just kill the profit motive that spurs these inventions. Re-establish the game as a co-operative enterprise whose first responsibility is to the people who play it, rather than the people who own it.
So what is to be done? Just kill the whole game? Or maybe we could just kill the profit motive that spurs these inventions. Re-establish the game as a co-operative enterprise whose first responsibility is to the people who play it, rather than the people who own it.
What is to be done?
In this case, either spread out the drops over a greater period (likely making a similar amount of money in the long run) or spoil the contents in advance (making the product seem less predatory). In the long run, maybe hire a single psychologist as a part-time consultant to aid with maintaining a customer engagement while avoiding these problems.
If a company is incapable of turning a profit while maintaining basic ethical standards to avoid the blatant exploitation of compulsive behaviors... then yeah, cancel it.
In most cases, though, there are ways to make profit without such exploitation. I do not question that MTG’s ultimate responsibility is to make its owners money but that does not mean that all means of doing so are equally acceptable.
When smaller, when weaker, dealing that death blow would be enough.
A new seed, a new game, taking root in their place.
Yet today even if one colossus fell, others remain.
Taking one down is a herculean task in itself.
Most of the old guard who wanted what is best for the players, gone.
Those who remain, given little room to help.
Even in the mid-nineties, the original testers and designers saw those warning sides.
The creator spun gold and earned a hefty windfall, then left all together.
Planting new seeds, creating new games.
The finance people wonder why stop at hundred-million for a windfall.
So what should wotc do with secret lair? Make them a FTV series that scalps everyone and can be either over or under printed? Only to benefit parasitic “investors”?
What should they do?
Stop making them and put these reprints in a $4 booster set. Like they should do with ALL cards.
So they should discontinue all non flagship products and only release things as though they were standard legal sets? I've seen some ridiculous asks here but this one is leagues beyond the others.
MTG is many things to many people so finding the best(Yes, 'best' includes making money for the company that makes this game. If they don't make money they don't keep making the game) way to get the people the things they want is tricky. It is impossible to print everything in a $4 booster
No. No it isn't. I'll wiggle on the price a little and point at Mystery Booster. Next month, retailers should have it out at about $6 a booster and it's all reprints and each pack potentially loaded with value. There is NO reason that couldn't be an ongoing, constant product, and it would make a ton of money. Players have been clamoring for it at MFs since it was introduced. Could they do it at $4? Absolutely, and it would sell even more. They could rotate the set list every year and release it until the end of time and it would still continuously sell.
because that implies a lot of things about print runs and distribution that they only do standard releases. They can't release every product like that because they are already filling the year with those 4 products.
Then they incorporate these reprints into those 4 products. They can make the argument about it fitting the set/storyline, but that's what a Core Set is for, a place for reprints without a home. And if it doesn't fit in there, make a $4 booster product where it would. You think Mystery Booster cost them more to make than a Standard set? I doubt it, I don't see how printing a card is priced differently because it's a valuable reprint vs. a new card. They could do it if they wanted to, but instead, they'd rather charge people $30-40 on a product that costs pennies to produce. And apparently, you'd rather buy that.
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():
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What should they do?
Stop making them and put these reprints in a $4 booster set. Like they should do with ALL cards.
And not everything being a mythic...
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
- product designed to be outrageously overpriced
and
- marketing that employs all of the worst freemium mobile game microtransaction tactics to make people spend without thinking
then more power to you.
MTG is many things to many people so finding the best(Yes, 'best' includes making money for the company that makes this game. If they don't make money they don't keep making the game) way to get the people the things they want is tricky. It is impossible to print everything in a $4 booster because that implies a lot of things about print runs and distribution that they only do standard releases. They can't release every product like that because they are already filling the year with those 4 products.
Is it interesting or fresh though? These are essentially smaller FTVs with less cards for far more money than most are worth, which was how From the Vault worked most of the time. The only real difference is that these come out at seemingly random, and that's about it.
I'm not really seeing conniptions. I'm seeing a general melaze and boredom to this more than anything else when it comes to this product. The only real anger I'm seeing is how many products are coming out rather than to the product in particular.
A conniption is a fit of rage, and I said near at that, which is detectable in a handful of replies as if people are involuntarily obligated to buy these Lairs.
And Ikoria which is the next set is where it all starts
And yes the green commander staples from the vault as well
If these aren’t Theros themed, I won’t be obtaining them either. If they are, it’s a first.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm not angry about these products because of myself. From where I'm standing, Secret lairs can't really be bad for me. Either they're good and they're a positive or they're bad and I ignore them. For most players, that is the start and end of the equation. With that said, there's a predatory element to this release that I don't like as a matter of principle.
To show what I mean, let's first indicate why this event is different from, say, a "one-day-only-sale" at a clothing store:
1. A one-day-sale at most stores put sales prices on items you could purchase at any point. While all secret lairs hold reprints, these items are being marketed in part as unique items, sold for only one day.
2. This isn't an old fashioned sale that requires some sort of effort to learn about and take advantage of. If you watch the championship or hang out on any MTG websites this weekend, you will learn what's in the drop and have what you need to purchase it. Gone are the days of needing to read the newspaper and drive to the mall.
3. VERY few stores would have 10+ unique "one-day-sales" that pressure customers to keep coming in again and again over in the space of 90 days.
So yeah, people compare this to freemium trickery for a reason. Even if it doesn't hurt you or me, the practice of not showing what cards are being sold in advance is likely an attempt to get impulse buys from players with poor impulse control... which makes me kind of sad.
In fact, let me go on the record as saying that this stuff is WORSE than most freemium tricks I've seen in some ways:
1. Getting a single copy might feel incomplete: When I buy a character or set of gear in a Free-to-play app, I don't typically feel the urge to by it again 3 more times (if doing so is even an option). For some players and cards, though (Rat colony and snow covered lands, to list examples that have already been used) getting multiple copies is a very real temptation.
2. The item enters a real economy: In most games, I don't have the ability to sell a special skin, XP-booster, or new character once I've made a microtransaction. For cards, however, we are going to see impulsive buys not only by players who want to use the cards but by collectors who are making snap decisions with the idea that they'll be able to flip it for profit... which may or may not work out.
3. Multiple offers don't obviate each other: If an app offers me multiple chances to buy premium currency (diamonds, tokens, free summon tickets, etc), I won't feel tempted to take every sale that comes up. In many cases, buying top-tier gear or characters for your playstyle would likewise make future sales of similar products a bit less tempting. No matter how many copies of one lair you buy, however, the temptation to buy the next isn't intrinsically diminished.
To be clear:
When you mix all three of those together, though, it's kind of a mess.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You state its optional, but you fail to understand that by being short-print, these are cards that will gross over time. They will only continue to grow in price because the supply is low. You know what else does short-print runs in card games? Yugioh. Cards that have viability in tournaments and are meant to drive sales because of artificial scarcity. You know what else does artificial scarcity? Companies that sell diamonds.
Turning a blind eye to a problem like short-print runs is just the same as paying for one of those secret lairs.
Examples of what you're talking about include cards like Mana Crypt and Nexus of Fate, very low print run cards that are played. They never made it into packs.
The problem with your statement is that these follow more of the judge promo pattern rather than the limited one off print pattern. These are reprints and if someone wants to play the cards in their deck they can just buy the much cheaper original printing.
So yes, it's optional.
Its how loot boxes, pay-or-wait, duplicate leveling, and other insidious tactics got started.
The secret lairs is just an evolution of the exclusive buy-a-box promos.
People rationalizing in their heads why its a good purchase, why its not as bad as it appears.
If it proves such a profitable venture, why not extend that to putting never before seen cards in secret lairs?
All the while people ask themselves how we got to this point.
Microtransactions started with the horse armour in Oblivion and now we have $60+ AAA videogames that milk players through microtransactions and lootboxes by design.
WotC has shown that they really want to go down the slippery slope with previous "premium" products like the Masters products:
Fitst Modern Masters was a hit, it costed more than a regular set, but was good value for your money.
Second Modern Masters, WotC saw that customers were willing to pay that extra and rised the price considerably.
Then after the first Eternal masters they started to go down the slope: print them more often, rise the price, put fewer and fewer valuable cards among the draft chaff and see how far can we swindle money from these walking wallets.
When the customers started to notice they just put out the same product FOR A HIGHER PRICE (Ultimate Masters).
Then rebranded the Masters products into the Horizons product by adding CARDS THAT YOU CAN'T GET ANYWHERE ELSE that are legal in an eternal format and will probably not be reprinted for years.
I wouldn't be surprised if WotC started rising the price on this line of products then started to add either "hard to obtain anywhere else" cards or "brand new cards" to it.
For example, dishing out a 5 ally fetchlands and a 5 enemy fetchlands SL for $80 each and never reprint them again in any other widely available product for another 3 years.
Or putting Oubliette in those products, so if you need/want a x4 you either have to pay an outrageous amount of money to have them new or a little less to get some in poor conditions from the secondary market, all the while the card itself will never see another wide print-run.
Then the next step is to put SL exclusive cards in there.
If the product is a monetary success and no one voices any gripes with how it is handled because "you don't need to buy it" or "it is meant for collectors, bro/sis", then you can be 100% sure they will roll it down the slippery slope because there is no negative feedback to stop them.
It is actually terrifying when you step back and look at it all.
We may voice our concern, our objection, yet we are few.
So many are caught under the spell.
The playerbase easily in the double digits of millions.
Even if a secret lair box sells a hundred-thousand units at $40 a piece, its still a profitable venture compared to the cost to make it.
And this is because its print to demand unlike past attempts where there was waste and excess in their storehouses.
Fantastic. Still doesn't mean I have to buy it.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
What is to be done?
In this case, either spread out the drops over a greater period (likely making a similar amount of money in the long run) or spoil the contents in advance (making the product seem less predatory). In the long run, maybe hire a single psychologist as a part-time consultant to aid with maintaining a customer engagement while avoiding these problems.
If a company is incapable of turning a profit while maintaining basic ethical standards to avoid the blatant exploitation of compulsive behaviors... then yeah, cancel it.
In most cases, though, there are ways to make profit without such exploitation. I do not question that MTG’s ultimate responsibility is to make its owners money but that does not mean that all means of doing so are equally acceptable.
A new seed, a new game, taking root in their place.
Yet today even if one colossus fell, others remain.
Taking one down is a herculean task in itself.
Most of the old guard who wanted what is best for the players, gone.
Those who remain, given little room to help.
Even in the mid-nineties, the original testers and designers saw those warning sides.
The creator spun gold and earned a hefty windfall, then left all together.
Planting new seeds, creating new games.
The finance people wonder why stop at hundred-million for a windfall.
No. No it isn't. I'll wiggle on the price a little and point at Mystery Booster. Next month, retailers should have it out at about $6 a booster and it's all reprints and each pack potentially loaded with value. There is NO reason that couldn't be an ongoing, constant product, and it would make a ton of money. Players have been clamoring for it at MFs since it was introduced. Could they do it at $4? Absolutely, and it would sell even more. They could rotate the set list every year and release it until the end of time and it would still continuously sell.
Then they incorporate these reprints into those 4 products. They can make the argument about it fitting the set/storyline, but that's what a Core Set is for, a place for reprints without a home. And if it doesn't fit in there, make a $4 booster product where it would. You think Mystery Booster cost them more to make than a Standard set? I doubt it, I don't see how printing a card is priced differently because it's a valuable reprint vs. a new card. They could do it if they wanted to, but instead, they'd rather charge people $30-40 on a product that costs pennies to produce. And apparently, you'd rather buy that.