except they're also considered multicolored when determining color for things like protection too... so... yeah, they're multicolored, it functions just fine, and it fits the flavor of the format just fine too
I fail to see how this is in any way whatsoever an issue. If it's not an issue in regular magic, why does it suddenly become gamebreaking in commander?
Moreover, how is this bigger of an issue than cards not functioning the way they are designed.
Bringing up what the rules already are in a discussion about what the rules should be is a meaningless contribution. The fact of the matter is that hybrid cards are not functioning as intended. They are only multicolored because the game doesn't handle multiple contradictory things simultaneously being true very well. Just look what happened to split card CMCs.
except they're also considered multicolored when determining color for things like protection too... so... yeah, they're multicolored, it functions just fine, and it fits the flavor of the format just fine too
Imagine a world where color words determined color identity as well. It would fit the flavor perfectly in many cases, especially on token makers. It doesn't make sense that a mono-black deck can have a white creature in play just because it came from a Bastion of Remembrance. White creatures do not belong in mono-red decks like Zada, so let's forbid her from playing Forbidden Friendship. But would this make the format better, or just more restrictive? The protection mechanic, like hybrid, would be drastically weakened for no particular reason, and protection fans would be complaining. If this were the status quo, would you be defending that, too?
And no, hybrid cards are not functioning fine - people have been saying so for a decade, including hybrid's creator.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
The Flash ban makes sense. Unexpected because since when does the RC give a flying fudge about cEDH, but nice of them to throw a bone.
Having to alter the rules just so Companion works, while making sure to alter them in a way so that wishes and Spawnsire still do not work, stinks of "we had to find a way to make sure WotC's stupid new mechanic works even though by all means it shouldn't" and resulted in an entirely unnecessary banning in Lutri because it's fine everywhere in the format but the one place that shouldn't exist anyway. Just leave the rules as they are, say Companion doesn't work for the same reasons the other cards that deal with outside of the game do not work, and leave it be. It's stupid and they still haven't given a justifiable reason for doing things the way they have.
It's not about color pie breaks, is it? I want to put Altar of Shadows and Gruul Turf into my monogreen decks. Life is tough!
"It's not possible, therefore it shouldn't be possible." is such a cold take it might solve global warming.
No, it's more like, "It has white mana symbols on it therefore it has white color identity." It's stupid with Quenchable Fire, and with Mtenda Lion, but for hybrid cards at least it makes sense to me, and it's not worth changing rules to allow access to these cards but not to other cards that are not legal in monocolor for the same exact reason.
It's not about color pie breaks, is it? I want to put Altar of Shadows and Gruul Turf into my monogreen decks. Life is tough!
"It's not possible, therefore it shouldn't be possible." is such a cold take it might solve global warming.
No, it's more like, "It has white mana symbols on it therefore it has white color identity." It's stupid with Quenchable Fire, and with Mtenda Lion, but for hybrid cards at least it makes sense to me, and it's not worth changing rules to allow access to these cards but not to other cards that are not legal in monocolor for the same exact reason.
It doesn't have "white mana symbols," though - it has hybrid mana symbols, and we are just asking for them to function the way they were intended to, i.e. have a white or blue color identity instead of a white and blue one. We know hybrid cards are multicolored for the purposes of Enemy of the Guildpact and such, but color identity is a separate concept that only matters in deckbuilding. "The rules should stay the way they are because that's the way they are" is a mindless argument.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
It doesn't have "white mana symbols," though - it has hybrid mana symbols, and we are just asking for them to function the way they were intended to, i.e. have a white or blue color identity instead of a white and blue one. We know hybrid cards are multicolored for the purposes of Enemy of the Guildpact and such, but color identity is a separate concept that only matters in deckbuilding. "The rules should stay the way they are because that's the way they are" is a mindless argument.
Since you obviously support allowing Hybrid cards in decks that only half meet the card's color I want to ask your opinion but really the opinion of everyone who shares this stance two separate questions.
1. If the rules are changed to say hybrid is "or" not "and" how does that affect hybrid legendaries? Would they still be treated as "and"? Or would Hybrid be treated as "or" and "and"?
2. If hybrid is allowed what about the 2-brid? Can my Isamaru deck run Flame Javelin? It was intended to be either the color or colorless so it should follow the same rules, right?
"We still don’t think Wishes and the other get-other-cards-from-outside-the-game are something we want in Commander."
I vehemently disagree with this ideology. I hate that a subset of cards with plenty of creative applications have just been shut off because the rules committee doesn't like them. I liked the unofficial guideline from a few years ago, where people were allowed to have 10-card sideboards and could make sideboarding decisions after everyone's generals had been revealed but before players shuffled up to start playing. Of course, Wishes would only be able to grab cards from this sideboard.
What makes it more frustrating is that companions were printed and the rules committee was like "oh but wait, we like these so we'll make an exception for them!"
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
2. If hybrid is allowed what about the 2-brid? Can my Isamaru deck run Flame Javelin? It was intended to be either the color or colorless so it should follow the same rules, right?
To add, Dismember was intended to be a removal spell Monogreen players could use.
I vehemently disagree with this ideology. I hate that a subset of cards with plenty of creative applications have just been shut off because the rules committee doesn't like them.
I especially dislike that they have a rules committee that frequently tells people that the rules don't matter. It seems a bit irresponsible.
I hate the Flash ban. I played the card entirely fairly, never had anyone complain it was broken. If you try to break something, don't act surprised when it breaks. I really hope this is the only adjustment made for cEDH because we just want such different things from the format.
But it was ok for Flash to hang around for months.
Months? Sorry, but Flash has been hanging around for 24 years - first printed in 1996 in Mirage. It's older than the format and isn't a problem unless people deliberately try to break it.
To be precise Flash had functional erratas in the past so it was not functionally the same card through its whole history. Not that it matters to the issue at hand, move along.
Also I think they were referring to the time period after Hulk was unbanned in commander, although it would be more accurate to say "years".
Any chance there will be adjustments for the rules to allow hybrid cards to work as intended? Or is that particular subset of cards going to be stuck in legacy rules limbo forever?
Please, not this argument here. There are already hundreds of posts elsewhere discussing this and it boils down to one side arguing that by the rules they are multicolor that is simply easier to cast vs. another side saying "we want them anyway."
This. It's just that not enough people care about that to make it worth trying to change anything.
except they're also considered multicolored when determining color for things like protection too... so... yeah, they're multicolored, it functions just fine, and it fits the flavor of the format just fine too
I never quite understood this argument, because the card's color |= color identity, yet you hear it all the time even from members in the RC.
Color identity is purely a deckbuilding restriction based on criteria other than or besides the card's color during the game, and you can come down on either side of the argument, but using variations of the "hybrid cards are both colors in play" seems disingenuous.
except they're also considered multicolored when determining color for things like protection too... so... yeah, they're multicolored, it functions just fine, and it fits the flavor of the format just fine too
I never quite understood this argument, because the card color |= color identity, yet you hear it all the time even from members in the RC.
Color identity is purely a deckbuilding restriction based on criteria other than or besides the card's color during the game, and you can come down on either side of the argument, but using variations of the "hybrid cards are both colors in play" seems disingenuous.
The fact that they also changed how mana producing permanents worked in Commander shows why barring hybrid is ridiculous too. If they were so keen on keeping it the Commanders colors exclusively then they shouldn’t have changed it.
So you can add U, B, R or G to a mono white Commanders pool but can’t cast Zealous Guardian, Mourning Thrull, Boros Reckoner or Dryad Militant despite those being things mono white could do? That makes no sense.
except they're also considered multicolored when determining color for things like protection too... so... yeah, they're multicolored, it functions just fine, and it fits the flavor of the format just fine too
I never quite understood this argument, because the card color |= color identity, yet you hear it all the time even from members in the RC.
Color identity is purely a deckbuilding restriction based on criteria other than or besides the card's color during the game, and you can come down on either side of the argument, but using variations of the "hybrid cards are both colors in play" seems disingenuous.
The fact that they also changed how mana producing permanents worked in Commander shows why barring hybrid is ridiculous too. If they were so keen on keeping it the Commanders colors exclusively then they shouldn’t have changed it.
So you can add U, B, R or G to a mono white Commanders pool but can’t cast Zealous Guardian, Mourning Thrull, Boros Reckoner or Dryad Militant despite those being things mono white could do? That makes no sense.
How does cleaning up the rules by removing a generally unnecessary rule make any kind of argument for treating hybrid differently? It’s a much better case for leaving things alone and thus consistent as opposed to creating exceptions.
How does cleaning up the rules by removing a generally unnecessary rule make any kind of argument for treating hybrid differently? It’s a much better case for leaving things alone and thus consistent as opposed to creating exceptions.
Because the rule was their based on flavor and then removed later because mechanically it didn’t make sense.
Hybrid mechanically is something either color could do. Even arguing that it flavorfully doesn’t make sense is wrong because a mono-colored Commander wouldn’t need to understand the other color because the concept is something they understand in their color.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
To people who think that Hybrid should be “Or” instead of “And”, I have a question: how would a legend with a single hybrid mana symbol in its cost work?
If we put a card with a single in its cost (*cough*rosheen meanderer*cough*) in the 99, we want it to fit in mono-green decks and mono-red decks because that means red OR green.
If we use that card as a commander, however, we suddenly want that to mean red AND green so we can get more colors.
Do we want the symbol to mean AND or OR? Choosing anything in the middle seems all kinds of messy.
How does cleaning up the rules by removing a generally unnecessary rule make any kind of argument for treating hybrid differently? It’s a much better case for leaving things alone and thus consistent as opposed to creating exceptions.
Because the rule was their based on flavor and then removed later because mechanically it didn’t make sense.
Hybrid mechanically is something either color could do. Even arguing that it flavorfully doesn’t make sense is wrong because a mono-colored Commander wouldn’t need to understand the other color because the concept is something they understand in their color.
I would argue that mechanically it is both because as far as the rules are concerned it is always both. Yes, some cards were designed with the concept "This card could be color A or color B" but Altar of Shadows was designed as "Any color can use this to destroy creatures at the rate we think is appropriate for any color to be able to destroy creatures" and yet very few people argue that MonoWhite decks should get to run it.
Arguing flavor vs mechanics or intent vs function is rather pointless because if you try even a little you can make a solid argument for and against on any side. The real value in discussing this and the part I would like to actually discuss is the practicality of it. How should the distinction be drawn? Because if the side that is arguing for the inclusion doesn't know how things could be implemented cleanly then they don't really have a leg to stand on because it is no longer an emotional argument of "I feel it should be this way" but simply "It works now but not if you make this change."
To people who think that Hybrid should be “Or” instead of “And”, I have a question: how would a legend with a single hybrid mana symbol in its cost work?
If we put a card with a single in its cost (*cough*rosheen meanderer*cough*) in the 99, we want it to fit in mono-green decks and mono-red decks because that means red OR green.
If we use that card as a commander, however, we suddenly want that to mean red AND green so we can get more colors.
Do we want the symbol to mean AND or OR? Choosing anything in the middle seems all kinds of messy.
It's really not messy, because the expected use case is pretty intuitive:
A white-blue hybrid card can be played in commander decks that have access to white or blue.
A white-blue commander can play colorless, blue, white and blue-white cards, but no other colors.
Color identity is a tool to put the above easy-to-grasp ideas into actual quantifiable rules. It is a means to an end, not the end itself and as such needs to be flexible to change when new rules (like hybrid) appears.
I would argue that mechanically it is both because as far as the rules are concerned it is always both. Yes, some cards were designed with the concept "This card could be color A or color B" but Altar of Shadows was designed as "Any color can use this to destroy creatures at the rate we think is appropriate for any color to be able to destroy creatures" and yet very few people argue that MonoWhite decks should get to run it.
And if Altar of Shadows had, arbitrarily, been designed to produce colourless mana instead? Should white decks then get to run it? And if yes, why is it somehow okay for white to run a "colorless" altar of shadows but not one that produces black mana, despite being in function identical to a non-black deck?
Arguing flavor vs mechanics or intent vs function is rather pointless because if you try even a little you can make a solid argument for and against on any side. The real value in discussing this and the part I would like to actually discuss is the practicality of it. How should the distinction be drawn? Because if the side that is arguing for the inclusion doesn't know how things could be implemented cleanly then they don't really have a leg to stand on because it is no longer an emotional argument of "I feel it should be this way" but simply "It works now but not if you make this change."
There are several ways to address this issue rules-wise, some more, some less intrusive to the existing rules.
Off the top of my head there are:
Less intrusive version: Hybrid cards get a special rule that gives them 'multiple' colour identities. A blue-white hybrid card would have three identities: White, Blue and White-Blue. Commanders always use the most inclusive version (Blue-White) while non-commander cards always the least inclusive (White or Blue).
More intrusive version: A player can put any cards in their deck.* A player cannot produce mana of a colour that does not match their commander's identity. Sounds like it could theoretically break some cards that produce multiple types of mana for mltiple players, but honestly I can't think of a single one, apart from maybe Krosa? (*This may sound like it could allow degenerate cheating-into-play decks, but honestly? Just ban problematic cards that can cheat creatures into play. Being able to draw from the entirety of Magic's history there is no shortage of broken-when-cheated creatures or spells in each colour that giving such a deck access to all creatures wouldn't really change a lot. I'd be surprised if this would actually cause any crazy things to happen that aren't already happening.)
Rules-wise it's really no big deal and the only reason to act that it is is to preserve the status quo for the sole purpose of preserving the status quo.
Implementing hybrid is actually fairly simple, once you take two seconds to think about it logistically.
Arguing flavor vs mechanics or intent vs function is rather pointless because if you try even a little you can make a solid argument for and against on any side. The real value in discussing this and the part I would like to actually discuss is the practicality of it. How should the distinction be drawn? Because if the side that is arguing for the inclusion doesn't know how things could be implemented cleanly then they don't really have a leg to stand on because it is no longer an emotional argument of "I feel it should be this way" but simply "It works now but not if you make this change."
There are several ways to address this issue rules-wise, some more, some less intrusive to the existing rules.
Off the top of my head there are:
Less intrusive version: Hybrid cards get a special rule that gives them 'multiple' colour identities. A blue-white hybrid card would have three identities: White, Blue and White-Blue. Commanders always use the most inclusive version (Blue-White) while non-commander cards always the least inclusive (White or Blue).
More intrusive version: A player can put any cards in their deck.* A player cannot produce mana of a colour that does not match their commander's identity. Sounds like it could theoretically break some cards that produce multiple types of mana for mltiple players, but honestly I can't think of a single one, apart from maybe Krosa? (*This may sound like it could allow degenerate cheating-into-play decks, but honestly? Just ban problematic cards that can cheat creatures into play. Being able to draw from the entirety of Magic's history there is no shortage of broken-when-cheated creatures or spells in each colour that giving such a deck access to all creatures wouldn't really change a lot. I'd be surprised if this would actually cause any crazy things to happen that aren't already happening.)
Rules-wise it's really no big deal and the only reason to act that it is is to preserve the status quo for the sole purpose of preserving the status quo.
Implementing hybrid is actually fairly simple, once you take two seconds to think about it logistically.
I don’t believe adding additional rules to ever be “no big deal”. Each additional rule makes it more confusing for a player to start something. Especially when it is a fundamental rule such as deck building restrictions. A new rule that says Hybrid’s color identity is whatever is most convenient. Sounds easy but it’s even easier to keep the rules the same. I would argue that allowing hybrid into any deck isn’t worth adding a contradictory rule.
Arguing flavor vs mechanics or intent vs function is rather pointless because if you try even a little you can make a solid argument for and against on any side. The real value in discussing this and the part I would like to actually discuss is the practicality of it. How should the distinction be drawn? Because if the side that is arguing for the inclusion doesn't know how things could be implemented cleanly then they don't really have a leg to stand on because it is no longer an emotional argument of "I feel it should be this way" but simply "It works now but not if you make this change."
There are several ways to address this issue rules-wise, some more, some less intrusive to the existing rules.
Off the top of my head there are:
Less intrusive version: Hybrid cards get a special rule that gives them 'multiple' colour identities. A blue-white hybrid card would have three identities: White, Blue and White-Blue. Commanders always use the most inclusive version (Blue-White) while non-commander cards always the least inclusive (White or Blue).
More intrusive version: A player can put any cards in their deck.* A player cannot produce mana of a colour that does not match their commander's identity. Sounds like it could theoretically break some cards that produce multiple types of mana for mltiple players, but honestly I can't think of a single one, apart from maybe Krosa? (*This may sound like it could allow degenerate cheating-into-play decks, but honestly? Just ban problematic cards that can cheat creatures into play. Being able to draw from the entirety of Magic's history there is no shortage of broken-when-cheated creatures or spells in each colour that giving such a deck access to all creatures wouldn't really change a lot. I'd be surprised if this would actually cause any crazy things to happen that aren't already happening.)
Rules-wise it's really no big deal and the only reason to act that it is is to preserve the status quo for the sole purpose of preserving the status quo.
Implementing hybrid is actually fairly simple, once you take two seconds to think about it logistically.
I don’t believe adding additional rules to ever be “no big deal”. Each additional rule makes it more confusing for a player to start something. Especially when it is a fundamental rule such as deck building restrictions. A new rule that says Hybrid’s color identity is whatever is most convenient. Sounds easy but it’s even easier to keep the rules the same. I would argue that allowing hybrid into any deck isn’t worth adding a contradictory rule.
That's a big move of the goalposts, saying that the change can't be too complex and then defining "too complex" as any change at all.
Furthermore, hybrid acting differently makes learning commander more complex for players coming from other formats. Adding a rule to make the game behave intuitively makes the game less complex, not more. Every time you fight player intuition comes at a greater cost than adding an intuitive rule.
Even if you were to explain how hybrid works to a completely new player, adding this rule means you have to explain less, since you don't have to explain the completely different way it works in commander.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
That's a big move of the goalposts, saying that the change can't be too complex and then defining "too complex" as any change at all.
Furthermore, hybrid acting differently makes learning commander more complex for players coming from other formats. Adding a rule to make the game behave intuitively makes the game less complex, not more. Every time you fight player intuition comes at a greater cost than adding an intuitive rule.
Adding a contradictory rule and changing existing rules to allow something are not the same thing. I don’t believe adding an exception rule is a good idea. There is no goal post moving.
Many cards function differently in commander. That is the whole point of color identity. Adding an exception for hybrid adds complexity because exceptions are complex and confusing. If the rules were written such that the basic color identity rules allowed hybrid I wouldn’t mind. However after explaining the crux of the format that is color identity you then have to go “oh yah, except this subset of cards. They don’t follow normal color identity rules.” That sounds like a problem.
On the topic of what is an isn’t intuitive. I can’t say much. I’ve taught the commander format to only three people and each of them understood that hybrid was both. If people are teaching the format in such a way that makes people confused on this subject I question how people are teaching. Is the normal method to say “This Isamaru deck is a white deck so you can run any white cards.” Because my method is “This Isamaru deck is white. You can’t run any cards that are colors other than white.” Which is more intuitive I won’t argue.
On the topic of what is an isn’t intuitive. I can’t say much. I’ve taught the commander format to only three people and each of them understood that hybrid was both. If people are teaching the format in such a way that makes people confused on this subject I question how people are teaching. Is the normal method to say “This Isamaru deck is a white deck so you can run any white cards.” Because my method is “This Isamaru deck is white. You can’t run any cards that are colors other than white.” Which is more intuitive I won’t argue.
The latter is more intuitive for most people, I'd wager. A big part of that probably has less to do with the actual rules governing deck construction than how we mentally associate the mana symbols on cards with their color: if the rules were reversed, a majority of people would probably understand the inclusion of hybrid cards in a mono white deck, but still be left scratching their heads as to why that should be permissible in the first place, since hybrid = gold.
If the current rules really aren't that intuitive for some people, are those people also confused as to whether you can mutate onto a Changeling?
I don’t believe adding additional rules to ever be “no big deal”. Each additional rule makes it more confusing for a player to start something. Especially when it is a fundamental rule such as deck building restrictions. A new rule that says Hybrid’s color identity is whatever is most convenient. Sounds easy but it’s even easier to keep the rules the same. I would argue that allowing hybrid into any deck isn’t worth adding a contradictory rule.
Commander already has additional rules and exceptions. The commander damage rule for example is also an exception, because it only exists in commander and serves no real purpose as far as I can tell.
If you are concerned with rules complexity then are you advocating removing existing rules that aren't needed? Or is it solely about not adding new rules, in order to preserve the status quo, no matter the merit?
Adding a contradictory rule and changing existing rules to allow something are not the same thing. I don’t believe adding an exception rule is a good idea. There is no goal post moving.
This is goal post moving. Your original (implied) request was for people to provide a "clean" solution for hybrid. I presented not one but two. Even more, one of the rules changes actually contained the removal of an existing rule and replacing it with another, equally simple one (deck building restruction -> mana production restriction). If you really were concerned about rules compelxity, then that fix shouldn't be an issue.
Like which? Do you mean cards like Summit Apes, Gruul Scrapper or Serpentine Kavu? Because yes, technically they face a similar issue as hybrid, but unlike hybrid these are are supposed to be played like multi-colour cards, at least in constructed. Nobody would play Gruul Scrapper in a non-red deck, but people would totally play Deus of Calamity in mono-green.
On the topic of what is an isn’t intuitive. I can’t say much. I’ve taught the commander format to only three people and each of them understood that hybrid was both. If people are teaching the format in such a way that makes people confused on this subject I question how people are teaching. Is the normal method to say “This Isamaru deck is a white deck so you can run any white cards.” Because my method is “This Isamaru deck is white. You can’t run any cards that are colors other than white.” Which is more intuitive I won’t argue.
I think the core issue stems from the fact that people have a hard time wrapping their head around hybrid. Even wizards seems to have people who are not entirely certain what hybrid is supposed to do, as seen on Augury Adept. I see this in a lot of custom card designs as well.
Again, hybrid cards are only multicolour because they have to, physically. Arguing that this disqualifies their original intent and design purpose is perplexing.
I suppose a lot of people don't question the special rules oddity around hybrid when it comes to colour identity, simply because they don't see them as hybrid, but as gold cards. I can't really argue against it. If a game mechanic is misunderstood by the player, that's the designer's fault (though I have no idea how to make hybrid any clearer).
However, here's the thing: Let's assume hybrids work as I outlined before. A white-blue hybrid card can be played in a mono-white deck. A player building a mono-white deck misinterprets hybrid cards as gold cards and doesn't include any hybrid cards. What happens? Nothing. The deck may be a little bit worse off due to not being able to play some cards, but there is nothing gamebreaking or rulesbreaking going on. The player sees someone else playing hybrid, asks about it and learns this new rule and includes hybrid from then on. Even in the utter worst case scenario it's simply an additional deckbuilding option, rather than a rule the player is forced to track, like commander damage.
If the current rules really aren't that intuitive for some people, are those people also confused as to whether you can mutate onto a Changeling?
This does not really apply. There is no fundamental distinction between different creature types. You can mutate a beast. You can't mutate a human. You can mutate an elf. You can't mutate a changeling. Yes, it's somewhat arbitrary flavour-wise, the same way a wurm can wear Lightning Greaves, but there is no way for the rules to make a distinction the way Magic is set up.
However, there is a fundamental distinction between hybrid and mono-coloured mana, and as such rules are able to treat them differently.
I don’t believe adding additional rules to ever be “no big deal”. Each additional rule makes it more confusing for a player to start something. Especially when it is a fundamental rule such as deck building restrictions. A new rule that says Hybrid’s color identity is whatever is most convenient. Sounds easy but it’s even easier to keep the rules the same. I would argue that allowing hybrid into any deck isn’t worth adding a contradictory rule.
Commander already has additional rules and exceptions. The commander damage rule for example is also an exception, because it only exists in commander and serves no real purpose as far as I can tell.
If you are concerned with rules complexity then are you advocating removing existing rules that aren't needed? Or is it solely about not adding new rules, in order to preserve the status quo, no matter the merit?
I would remove commander damage. As a rule it doesn’t pull its weight.
Adding a contradictory rule and changing existing rules to allow something are not the same thing. I don’t believe adding an exception rule is a good idea. There is no goal post moving.
This is goal post moving. Your original (implied) request was for people to provide a "clean" solution for hybrid. I presented not one but two. Even more, one of the rules changes actually contained the removal of an existing rule and replacing it with another, equally simple one (deck building restruction -> mana production restriction). If you really were concerned about rules compelxity, then that fix shouldn't be an issue.
My goal post of a clean implementation didn’t move. I stated I don’t think an exception rule is clean. No movement if goal post.
As for your other possible fix. I didn’t mention it because it met my criteria but I just don’t like what it’s doing. It’s a cleaner fix but I feel it would drastically change the format. It could be a good thing or it could be bad.
Like which? Do you mean cards like Summit Apes, Gruul Scrapper or Serpentine Kavu? Because yes, technically they face a similar issue as hybrid, but unlike hybrid these are are supposed to be played like multi-colour cards, at least in constructed. Nobody would play Gruul Scrapper in a non-red deck, but people would totally play Deus of Calamity in mono-green.
I was thinking more along the lines of Altar of Shadows, or crystal shard. You know, the cards that color identity matters in a restrictive way. Many decks who don’t fit the color identity of these cards would like to run them. And could make “full” use of them.
Why is it silly to make cards in commander actually work the way they are designed and work in literally every other format?
Because Commander literally isn't every other format, nor has it been since its inception. The exceptions to the core rules we adhere to just to play a game of EDH is not justification to change those core rules that otherwise function perfectly fine in each of those other formats. Fixing something that isn't broken is silly.
Similarly (if we're still talking silly), arguing design or intent is always a trap. You may as well try to pin down every other decision the RC has made in order to make Commander function as a format.
Quote from Flisch »
This does not really apply. There is no fundamental distinction between different creature types. You can mutate a beast. You can't mutate a human. You can mutate an elf. You can't mutate a changeling. Yes, it's somewhat arbitrary flavour-wise, the same way a wurm can wear Lightning Greaves, but there is no way for the rules to make a distinction the way Magic is set up.
However, there is a fundamental distinction between hybrid and mono-coloured mana, and as such rules are able to treat them differently.
You really missed the point there, friend. The comparison between hybrid and mutate, as a set of rules, is less important than how we naturally intuit multiple states. If the justification for changing hybrid is that it's more intuitive, then again I would ask, are too many people having problems figuring out how mutate works when a creature is both human and non-human? What about when two different cards say that you may both do and not-do something at the same time, are the core rules governing that interaction also not intuitive? Should we reverse those rules if they aren't? "I want it and it could be done" is, ultimately, an uninspiring argument for changing what ain't broken - and if it is broken, I'd like to see the data.
I use Gatherer routinely for researching cards for my EDH decks. Did you know that when you search for Kitchen Finks by name, check the boxes for both White (or Green) and 'Exclude Unselected Colors,' the search returns zero results? There are no options for color identity in the Advanced Search, and changing the Basic Search to Commander only doesn't change anything. I'd say that's pretty telling.
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There is no ulterior motive. This is simply about a subset of cards not functioning as intended in commander because of a legacy rule.
How would it make the game better if they did? About the same way the game is better off if any card works as intended and designed.
"It's not possible, therefore it shouldn't be possible." is such a cold take it might solve global warming.
I fail to see how this is in any way whatsoever an issue. If it's not an issue in regular magic, why does it suddenly become gamebreaking in commander?
Moreover, how is this bigger of an issue than cards not functioning the way they are designed.
Imagine a world where color words determined color identity as well. It would fit the flavor perfectly in many cases, especially on token makers. It doesn't make sense that a mono-black deck can have a white creature in play just because it came from a Bastion of Remembrance. White creatures do not belong in mono-red decks like Zada, so let's forbid her from playing Forbidden Friendship. But would this make the format better, or just more restrictive? The protection mechanic, like hybrid, would be drastically weakened for no particular reason, and protection fans would be complaining. If this were the status quo, would you be defending that, too?
And no, hybrid cards are not functioning fine - people have been saying so for a decade, including hybrid's creator.
Having to alter the rules just so Companion works, while making sure to alter them in a way so that wishes and Spawnsire still do not work, stinks of "we had to find a way to make sure WotC's stupid new mechanic works even though by all means it shouldn't" and resulted in an entirely unnecessary banning in Lutri because it's fine everywhere in the format but the one place that shouldn't exist anyway. Just leave the rules as they are, say Companion doesn't work for the same reasons the other cards that deal with outside of the game do not work, and leave it be. It's stupid and they still haven't given a justifiable reason for doing things the way they have.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
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UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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No, it's more like, "It has white mana symbols on it therefore it has white color identity." It's stupid with Quenchable Fire, and with Mtenda Lion, but for hybrid cards at least it makes sense to me, and it's not worth changing rules to allow access to these cards but not to other cards that are not legal in monocolor for the same exact reason.
It doesn't have "white mana symbols," though - it has hybrid mana symbols, and we are just asking for them to function the way they were intended to, i.e. have a white or blue color identity instead of a white and blue one. We know hybrid cards are multicolored for the purposes of Enemy of the Guildpact and such, but color identity is a separate concept that only matters in deckbuilding. "The rules should stay the way they are because that's the way they are" is a mindless argument.
1. If the rules are changed to say hybrid is "or" not "and" how does that affect hybrid legendaries? Would they still be treated as "and"? Or would Hybrid be treated as "or" and "and"?
2. If hybrid is allowed what about the 2-brid? Can my Isamaru deck run Flame Javelin? It was intended to be either the color or colorless so it should follow the same rules, right?
I vehemently disagree with this ideology. I hate that a subset of cards with plenty of creative applications have just been shut off because the rules committee doesn't like them. I liked the unofficial guideline from a few years ago, where people were allowed to have 10-card sideboards and could make sideboarding decisions after everyone's generals had been revealed but before players shuffled up to start playing. Of course, Wishes would only be able to grab cards from this sideboard.
What makes it more frustrating is that companions were printed and the rules committee was like "oh but wait, we like these so we'll make an exception for them!"
To add, Dismember was intended to be a removal spell Monogreen players could use.
I especially dislike that they have a rules committee that frequently tells people that the rules don't matter. It seems a bit irresponsible.
To be precise Flash had functional erratas in the past so it was not functionally the same card through its whole history. Not that it matters to the issue at hand, move along.
Also I think they were referring to the time period after Hulk was unbanned in commander, although it would be more accurate to say "years".
This. It's just that not enough people care about that to make it worth trying to change anything.
I never quite understood this argument, because the card's color |= color identity, yet you hear it all the time even from members in the RC.
Archangel Avacyn is never Red, Yasova Dragonclaw is never Red, Nettle Drone is never Red so your Circle of Protection: Red doesn't prevent damage from those cards, your Blue Elemental Blast doesn't destroy them, and your Auriok Champion doesn't have protection against them.
Color identity is purely a deckbuilding restriction based on criteria other than or besides the card's color during the game, and you can come down on either side of the argument, but using variations of the "hybrid cards are both colors in play" seems disingenuous.
The fact that they also changed how mana producing permanents worked in Commander shows why barring hybrid is ridiculous too. If they were so keen on keeping it the Commanders colors exclusively then they shouldn’t have changed it.
So you can add U, B, R or G to a mono white Commanders pool but can’t cast Zealous Guardian, Mourning Thrull, Boros Reckoner or Dryad Militant despite those being things mono white could do? That makes no sense.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Because the rule was their based on flavor and then removed later because mechanically it didn’t make sense.
Hybrid mechanically is something either color could do. Even arguing that it flavorfully doesn’t make sense is wrong because a mono-colored Commander wouldn’t need to understand the other color because the concept is something they understand in their color.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
If we put a card with a single in its cost (*cough*rosheen meanderer*cough*) in the 99, we want it to fit in mono-green decks and mono-red decks because that means red OR green.
If we use that card as a commander, however, we suddenly want that to mean red AND green so we can get more colors.
Do we want the symbol to mean AND or OR? Choosing anything in the middle seems all kinds of messy.
Arguing flavor vs mechanics or intent vs function is rather pointless because if you try even a little you can make a solid argument for and against on any side. The real value in discussing this and the part I would like to actually discuss is the practicality of it. How should the distinction be drawn? Because if the side that is arguing for the inclusion doesn't know how things could be implemented cleanly then they don't really have a leg to stand on because it is no longer an emotional argument of "I feel it should be this way" but simply "It works now but not if you make this change."
It's really not messy, because the expected use case is pretty intuitive:
Color identity is a tool to put the above easy-to-grasp ideas into actual quantifiable rules. It is a means to an end, not the end itself and as such needs to be flexible to change when new rules (like hybrid) appears.
And if Altar of Shadows had, arbitrarily, been designed to produce colourless mana instead? Should white decks then get to run it? And if yes, why is it somehow okay for white to run a "colorless" altar of shadows but not one that produces black mana, despite being in function identical to a non-black deck?
There are several ways to address this issue rules-wise, some more, some less intrusive to the existing rules.
Off the top of my head there are:
Rules-wise it's really no big deal and the only reason to act that it is is to preserve the status quo for the sole purpose of preserving the status quo.
Implementing hybrid is actually fairly simple, once you take two seconds to think about it logistically.
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That's a big move of the goalposts, saying that the change can't be too complex and then defining "too complex" as any change at all.
Furthermore, hybrid acting differently makes learning commander more complex for players coming from other formats. Adding a rule to make the game behave intuitively makes the game less complex, not more. Every time you fight player intuition comes at a greater cost than adding an intuitive rule.
Even if you were to explain how hybrid works to a completely new player, adding this rule means you have to explain less, since you don't have to explain the completely different way it works in commander.
Many cards function differently in commander. That is the whole point of color identity. Adding an exception for hybrid adds complexity because exceptions are complex and confusing. If the rules were written such that the basic color identity rules allowed hybrid I wouldn’t mind. However after explaining the crux of the format that is color identity you then have to go “oh yah, except this subset of cards. They don’t follow normal color identity rules.” That sounds like a problem.
On the topic of what is an isn’t intuitive. I can’t say much. I’ve taught the commander format to only three people and each of them understood that hybrid was both. If people are teaching the format in such a way that makes people confused on this subject I question how people are teaching. Is the normal method to say “This Isamaru deck is a white deck so you can run any white cards.” Because my method is “This Isamaru deck is white. You can’t run any cards that are colors other than white.” Which is more intuitive I won’t argue.
The latter is more intuitive for most people, I'd wager. A big part of that probably has less to do with the actual rules governing deck construction than how we mentally associate the mana symbols on cards with their color: if the rules were reversed, a majority of people would probably understand the inclusion of hybrid cards in a mono white deck, but still be left scratching their heads as to why that should be permissible in the first place, since hybrid = gold.
If the current rules really aren't that intuitive for some people, are those people also confused as to whether you can mutate onto a Changeling?
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Why is it silly to make cards in commander actually work the way they are designed and work in literally every other format?
Commander already has additional rules and exceptions. The commander damage rule for example is also an exception, because it only exists in commander and serves no real purpose as far as I can tell.
If you are concerned with rules complexity then are you advocating removing existing rules that aren't needed? Or is it solely about not adding new rules, in order to preserve the status quo, no matter the merit?
This is goal post moving. Your original (implied) request was for people to provide a "clean" solution for hybrid. I presented not one but two. Even more, one of the rules changes actually contained the removal of an existing rule and replacing it with another, equally simple one (deck building restruction -> mana production restriction). If you really were concerned about rules compelxity, then that fix shouldn't be an issue.
Like which? Do you mean cards like Summit Apes, Gruul Scrapper or Serpentine Kavu? Because yes, technically they face a similar issue as hybrid, but unlike hybrid these are are supposed to be played like multi-colour cards, at least in constructed. Nobody would play Gruul Scrapper in a non-red deck, but people would totally play Deus of Calamity in mono-green.
I think the core issue stems from the fact that people have a hard time wrapping their head around hybrid. Even wizards seems to have people who are not entirely certain what hybrid is supposed to do, as seen on Augury Adept. I see this in a lot of custom card designs as well.
Again, hybrid cards are only multicolour because they have to, physically. Arguing that this disqualifies their original intent and design purpose is perplexing.
I suppose a lot of people don't question the special rules oddity around hybrid when it comes to colour identity, simply because they don't see them as hybrid, but as gold cards. I can't really argue against it. If a game mechanic is misunderstood by the player, that's the designer's fault (though I have no idea how to make hybrid any clearer).
However, here's the thing: Let's assume hybrids work as I outlined before. A white-blue hybrid card can be played in a mono-white deck. A player building a mono-white deck misinterprets hybrid cards as gold cards and doesn't include any hybrid cards. What happens? Nothing. The deck may be a little bit worse off due to not being able to play some cards, but there is nothing gamebreaking or rulesbreaking going on. The player sees someone else playing hybrid, asks about it and learns this new rule and includes hybrid from then on. Even in the utter worst case scenario it's simply an additional deckbuilding option, rather than a rule the player is forced to track, like commander damage.
This does not really apply. There is no fundamental distinction between different creature types. You can mutate a beast. You can't mutate a human. You can mutate an elf. You can't mutate a changeling. Yes, it's somewhat arbitrary flavour-wise, the same way a wurm can wear Lightning Greaves, but there is no way for the rules to make a distinction the way Magic is set up.
However, there is a fundamental distinction between hybrid and mono-coloured mana, and as such rules are able to treat them differently.
My goal post of a clean implementation didn’t move. I stated I don’t think an exception rule is clean. No movement if goal post.
As for your other possible fix. I didn’t mention it because it met my criteria but I just don’t like what it’s doing. It’s a cleaner fix but I feel it would drastically change the format. It could be a good thing or it could be bad.
I was thinking more along the lines of Altar of Shadows, or crystal shard. You know, the cards that color identity matters in a restrictive way. Many decks who don’t fit the color identity of these cards would like to run them. And could make “full” use of them.
Because Commander literally isn't every other format, nor has it been since its inception. The exceptions to the core rules we adhere to just to play a game of EDH is not justification to change those core rules that otherwise function perfectly fine in each of those other formats. Fixing something that isn't broken is silly.
Similarly (if we're still talking silly), arguing design or intent is always a trap. You may as well try to pin down every other decision the RC has made in order to make Commander function as a format.
You really missed the point there, friend. The comparison between hybrid and mutate, as a set of rules, is less important than how we naturally intuit multiple states. If the justification for changing hybrid is that it's more intuitive, then again I would ask, are too many people having problems figuring out how mutate works when a creature is both human and non-human? What about when two different cards say that you may both do and not-do something at the same time, are the core rules governing that interaction also not intuitive? Should we reverse those rules if they aren't? "I want it and it could be done" is, ultimately, an uninspiring argument for changing what ain't broken - and if it is broken, I'd like to see the data.
I use Gatherer routinely for researching cards for my EDH decks. Did you know that when you search for Kitchen Finks by name, check the boxes for both White (or Green) and 'Exclude Unselected Colors,' the search returns zero results? There are no options for color identity in the Advanced Search, and changing the Basic Search to Commander only doesn't change anything. I'd say that's pretty telling.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice