A similar discussion had to be closed down due to derailing too far off topic. Please keep our rules in mid as you reply.
In particular, I would like to call out the following rules:
Please keep discussion on topic and civil. Remember that this is a Gaming site, primarily for the purpose of discussing Magic the Gathering. This is not the place to have a heavy in-depth political rally and try to convince others of your positions.
Given the nature of the announcement by Wizards, it is obvious that this discussion will have some political features and ramifications, but try to keep the discussion focused on how it pertains to the game.
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A thread on this was already started, went a few pages, and locked.
Indeed, evidently this community isn't able to discuss racism in the world/game/fandom/forum. I think the conversation is desperately needed, but we're not going to have it. I imagine this will be locked asap.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
It wasn't that they were censoring the topic, the replies had just devolved into a bunch of whining and personal attacks. As with most nuanced conversations, the internet rarely stay s a forum for productive discussion for a long period of time.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
It wasn't that they were censoring the topic, the replies had just devolved into a bunch of whining and personal attacks. As with most nuanced conversations, the internet rarely stay s a forum for productive discussion for a long period of time.
I’m actually fresh off a week-long ban for mentioning ‘privilege.’ That’s outright censorship.
No longer the place for conversation, sadly. The mods have been hard at work, actively censoring this topic.
It wasn't that they were censoring the topic, the replies had just devolved into a bunch of whining and personal attacks. As with most nuanced conversations, the internet rarely stay s a forum for productive discussion for a long period of time.
That's not inevitable, that's the culture of a particular community. If MTGS can't handle tough conversations, that's on us, we can't just shrug and say "well, it's the internet, what are you going to do?" I think that's a copout, particularly when the subject is culturally important.
We need to figure out how to have nuanced conversations, shutting them down doesn't address the issue. Several people in my playgroup are women, LGBTQ2S+, and/or BIPOC and they laugh when I talk about this site because not one of them will come here because of the culture. As someone who has invested fifteen years in this site, that concerns me.
So long as its not just one-sided I think it will be ok. Cleanse seemed a stretch when Virtue's Ruin is left in the game (yes, I know the name connotation).
The right for people to live a life without discrimination and abuse, or indeed a life at all, is not up for debate. Or at the very least should not be up for debate.
Claiming that it is "just" an opinion or a discussion arguing the merits of some people being treated like citizens or humans at all or not is a statement of immense privilegue. People who say that generally have no idea what it's like to have their existence questioned by society at large.
It is not free speech to speak out in favour of otherism or against anti-otherism. Free speech is about speaking out against the government. Free speech is about speaking out against corruption among the leaders. Free speech is about speaking out against state sponsored violence. Free speech is about questioning those in power. It is not free speech to kick someone who is already on the ground. That is bullying at best.
Jihad Crusade Both of these cards are historical events. Both have happened. The offense or racism in question is a feeling based view point that can't be proven. It's a feeling that is different from person to person, year to year, culture to culture.
Well this is not an historical card game but a fantasy card game
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I unstated where all this is coming from, maybe if they changed the art it would resolve the issue. The card extreme prejudice can be remade with a different name if needed. Not sure anyone played that one anyways. But they were still debating other cards in the article. Wondering which ones they were referring to?
The weird thing with Wizards decision is that I don't think it is an inherently bad idea, but I don't neccessarly agree with the selection.
I honestly had the most trouble with Cleanse. I wouldn't have considered this card racist at all since it just depicts a bunch of demons bunch of demons getting destroyed.
What do I have to take from the banning? Hopefully not that Wizard think black people are demons. But that is given the context the best explanation I found and that would then be in and of itsel racism.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Before this thread gets closed: It's important to realize that some of these cards weren't banned just for art - ALL of these cards were banned for the sole purpose of denying racists any pleasure from getting to play them. The text on some of these cards itself is problematic when taken out of context, and we all know there are some unfortunate souls playing magic who will take this text out of context as a "joke" - let's deny them that pleasure, please!
Before this thread gets closed: It's important to realize that some of these cards weren't banned just for art - ALL of these cards were banned for the sole purpose of denying racists any pleasure from getting to play them. The text on some of these cards itself is problematic when taken out of context, and we all know there are some unfortunate souls playing magic who will take this text out of context as a "joke" - let's deny them that pleasure, please!
In reality this does the exact opposite.
The cards are almost everywhere sold out.
They got a massive attention boost and people will just oppose this nonsense.
----
WotC made itself a laughing stock, more than they already are with this action.
Claiming racism in specific cards and ignoring anything else on other cards is not consistent and flooding the banned lists with cards for "racist" reasons is just pathetic and stupid, as it gives these cards even more attention (barely anybody that isnt a long term player knew these cards existed, and with this action everyone will know them for as long as they are banned).
This entire show is just pandering to a woke ideology that is just not doing anything good for the world, but spread chaos, destruction, and hurts people.
The exact opposite is needed, bringing people together, this just divides it even more.
@CatParty : Just because the cards are banned in tournament play doesn't mean that nobody can actually play them. I would expect that the amount of Invoke Prejudice that actually get played will rise as a result of this action. Some racists will play it in commander and start arguments about it.
I honestly fear that this is exacly what is happening. Before this I didn't know that rock-throwing devils was a slur against Arabs. Now my racist vocabulary has increased and I don't think that is a good thing at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Drop your knees to the floor
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
@CatParty : Just because the cards are banned in tournament play doesn't mean that nobody can actually play them. I would expect that the amount of Invoke Prejudice that actually get played will rise as a result of this action. Some racists will play it in commander and start arguments about it.
Fair point, but that's more of a reason for WotC to be encouraging conversation about racism in the fandom, not less. LGSes having more robust anti-racism standards, for example, is one thing that could conceivably come from such conversations.
I honestly fear that this is exacly what is happening. Before this I didn't know that rock-throwing devils was a slur against Arabs. Now my racist vocabulary has increased and I don't think that is a good thing at all.
Increasing your awareness and understanding of racism is good. If you choose to use your expanded vocabulary to hurt people, that's bad. I encounter the same concerns when doing my presentations (for context, I run a nonprofit that in part educates people on LGBTQ2S+ issues, including slurs), but the root issue is the underlying beliefs and attitudes. Racists will always find a way to be racist, it's not denying them power to avoid talking about slurs and the damage they cause. Quite the opposite, empowering allies with a better understanding helps them be more able to call people in when their words are hurting people.
i have some strong thoughts on this one, including some of the posts that have appeared here. i'll start with some of the posts i've seen and expand into some broader points. here goes:
okay so virtue's ruin isn't on the list. you're trying to imply that whites are virtuous here... except what's ruining them? there's nothing depicted here as ruining them, where is the racist act? where is the real world inference to an event that has destroyed or persecuted a people? see it just doesn't work, however you can make the leap from destroy all black creatures to ethnic cleansing by titling the card cleanse. we use to talk about this on the playground back in like 94', the inference is definitely there.
mtgs censors a lot of the discussion sure, but at the same time the threads tend to devolve into ranting and raving, or go extremely off topic, or people get really nasty toward each other. while a forum is the place for discussion, there does have to be some type of order to it, it can't be a lawless land of insults
to those claiming it had the opposite effect and trumped up the pricing... well it didn't, not entirely. these cards are old and on the reserved list, a lot of them were already higher priced, that's not new. additionally what a lot of stores did (troll & toad, card kingdom) was to pull their stock completely and purposely tank the price. sure someone somewhere has a bunch of these now and could profit... but they're banned everywhere. who cares? why care?
to the person saying their racist vocabulary increased and thats not a good thing... well isn't it? i mean you're aware its a racial slur now, so one would have to assume you're not going to use it and would speak out against it in the future, unless you're saying you're not against using it and intend to add it to your repertoire of insults?
look these cards have existed for like 28 years. maybe they weren't talked about in your playgroups, but in a lot of mine they were. i've been playing for 26 years, and without fail every single group i've been a part of has spoken about these at some point or another. yes, all of them. they've also been talked about to some degree in print magazines like inquest (generally pointing it out and spinning it as a joke), so this isn't new.
some people bring up slippery slope, and who knows where the line will be drawn, but honestly... when a person can walk up to the table, pick up a card, and say that's racist... well there's your line. thats it. right there. you don't really get to dictate what another person, or group of people, find offensive just because you don't find it to be that way. just because you, or you, or that other other guy doesn't find it racist, someone else might, or a group of people might. pradesh gypsies and stone throwing devils being two perfect examples of something that we just kind of tolerated or weren't aware of for decades but are definitely racist to those groups of people.
stop and think about the culture and community around this game. if these things make the game unapproachable to new players, or make existing ones uncomfortable... is that healthy? is that good for the game? why do you want that?
we've seen how many arguments along the exact same lines when something has been labeled sexist? how about all the latest comments in regard to trans and gay characters? just look at the kinnan and nikara threads, or hop into the way back machine and look at the tiro thread. magic has a really toxic community and this has made a lot of people uncomfortable as a great big spotlight has been shined on it
the cards are not altered, they're not censored, wotc is just saying we made a mistake in our past and we don't want these cards used in our events, anywhere because of the implications of them and how they effect our community. you can still own them, you can still hoard them, you can still proudly display them if you want... you just can't use them in sanctioned events because of these reasons.
so really, if we're not willing to change the culture around the game beginning with this tiny step in the right direction, why not? why is it okay to alienate players? it doesn't matter how you personally feel about these not being racist, if someone else feels that way about them, why is it okay to allow that? that doesn't mean we're going to start labeling random things as racist, it just means the identifiable parts that are racist need to go, for the sake of everyone.
magic, and the spaces its played in, should be welcoming and accepting of all. you're there to play cards, thats the common bond, foster that. if you can't... is this the right game and community for you?
Before this thread gets closed: It's important to realize that some of these cards weren't banned just for art - ALL of these cards were banned for the sole purpose of denying racists any pleasure from getting to play them. The text on some of these cards itself is problematic when taken out of context, and we all know there are some unfortunate souls playing magic who will take this text out of context as a "joke" - let's deny them that pleasure, please!
In reality this does the exact opposite.
The cards are almost everywhere sold out.
They got a massive attention boost and people will just oppose this nonsense.
----
WotC made itself a laughing stock, more than they already are with this action.
Claiming racism in specific cards and ignoring anything else on other cards is not consistent and flooding the banned lists with cards for "racist" reasons is just pathetic and stupid, as it gives these cards even more attention (barely anybody that isnt a long term player knew these cards existed, and with this action everyone will know them for as long as they are banned).
This entire show is just pandering to a woke ideology that is just not doing anything good for the world, but spread chaos, destruction, and hurts people.
The exact opposite is needed, bringing people together, this just divides it even more.
If this movement manages to put an end to police brutality, I'd consider that "good for the world." Our founding fathers "spread chaos, destruction, and hurt people" for the sake of the right to self-governance, and I'd reckon the right to live is a fair bit more important a thing to riot for.
And addressing division is not the same as creating it.
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
The problem is that I learned nothimg from this which actually helps me fight racism.
If a person calls another person a rock-throwing devil I would have recognized that as an insult. It is a pretty obvious one.
The only people who gain something from that knowledge are literally the racists how just found a new toy to play with.
Also I am not entirely sure if I am your ally. I just want to treat all people with common decency regardless of who they are.
Aren’t there grades of wrongdoing, though? There are harsher penalties for hate crimes, even if both actions are illegal. There are many insults I can sling at someone that won’t rise (sink?) to the same level as the n-word, and the different reactions they provoke will be correspondingly disproportionate. You might recognize an insult, but what’s the threshold for you to stand up and risk your personal wellbeing for a stranger?
I mean to be fair, in the last thread someone literally said that racism has never existed and still doesn't exist. So there's a good reason that thread needed to be locked. Censorship or not.
I mean to be fair, in the last thread someone literally said that racism has never existed and still doesn't exist. So there's a good reason that thread needed to be locked. Censorship or not.
No. You don’t impede, stymie, or outright censor a necessary conversation just because there are bad faith actors. There will always be bad faith actors, and locking or deleting threads only perpetuates the status quo.
So long as we don't get anything stupid like the Triumph of Ferocity/Triumph of Cruelty argument then its ok. Black-hate and White-hate (in terms of mechanical identity) should be equally present.
Invoke Predjudice, Stone-Throwing Devils, Pradesh Gypsies all understandable. Jihad, Crusade, Cleanse and Imprison seem reaching.
WotC's decision to draw attention to these cards is in itself part of their fight against racism. They're not just pointing out the existence of these cards - sure someone can still play them - they are saying: Playing with these cards is wrong; if you play with these cards you should consider their connotations and consider that playing them is wrong; playing with these cards can hurt people. They are acknowledging a systemic racism that gives negative power to text like "Destroy all black creatures". This is a step in the direction of being actively anti-racist - and being actively anti-racist is what we should strive to be. This should not and cannot and is not a debate.
thoughts?
A similar discussion had to be closed down due to derailing too far off topic. Please keep our rules in mid as you reply.
In particular, I would like to call out the following rules:
Most importantly:
Thank you.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Indeed, evidently this community isn't able to discuss racism in the world/game/fandom/forum. I think the conversation is desperately needed, but we're not going to have it. I imagine this will be locked asap.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
It wasn't that they were censoring the topic, the replies had just devolved into a bunch of whining and personal attacks. As with most nuanced conversations, the internet rarely stay s a forum for productive discussion for a long period of time.
I’m actually fresh off a week-long ban for mentioning ‘privilege.’ That’s outright censorship.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
That's not inevitable, that's the culture of a particular community. If MTGS can't handle tough conversations, that's on us, we can't just shrug and say "well, it's the internet, what are you going to do?" I think that's a copout, particularly when the subject is culturally important.
We need to figure out how to have nuanced conversations, shutting them down doesn't address the issue. Several people in my playgroup are women, LGBTQ2S+, and/or BIPOC and they laugh when I talk about this site because not one of them will come here because of the culture. As someone who has invested fifteen years in this site, that concerns me.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
Claiming that it is "just" an opinion or a discussion arguing the merits of some people being treated like citizens or humans at all or not is a statement of immense privilegue. People who say that generally have no idea what it's like to have their existence questioned by society at large.
It is not free speech to speak out in favour of otherism or against anti-otherism. Free speech is about speaking out against the government. Free speech is about speaking out against corruption among the leaders. Free speech is about speaking out against state sponsored violence. Free speech is about questioning those in power. It is not free speech to kick someone who is already on the ground. That is bullying at best.
Well this is not an historical card game but a fantasy card game
I honestly had the most trouble with Cleanse. I wouldn't have considered this card racist at all since it just depicts a bunch of demons bunch of demons getting destroyed.
What do I have to take from the banning? Hopefully not that Wizard think black people are demons. But that is given the context the best explanation I found and that would then be in and of itsel racism.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
In reality this does the exact opposite.
The cards are almost everywhere sold out.
They got a massive attention boost and people will just oppose this nonsense.
----
WotC made itself a laughing stock, more than they already are with this action.
Claiming racism in specific cards and ignoring anything else on other cards is not consistent and flooding the banned lists with cards for "racist" reasons is just pathetic and stupid, as it gives these cards even more attention (barely anybody that isnt a long term player knew these cards existed, and with this action everyone will know them for as long as they are banned).
This entire show is just pandering to a woke ideology that is just not doing anything good for the world, but spread chaos, destruction, and hurts people.
The exact opposite is needed, bringing people together, this just divides it even more.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Fair point, but that's more of a reason for WotC to be encouraging conversation about racism in the fandom, not less. LGSes having more robust anti-racism standards, for example, is one thing that could conceivably come from such conversations.
Increasing your awareness and understanding of racism is good. If you choose to use your expanded vocabulary to hurt people, that's bad. I encounter the same concerns when doing my presentations (for context, I run a nonprofit that in part educates people on LGBTQ2S+ issues, including slurs), but the root issue is the underlying beliefs and attitudes. Racists will always find a way to be racist, it's not denying them power to avoid talking about slurs and the damage they cause. Quite the opposite, empowering allies with a better understanding helps them be more able to call people in when their words are hurting people.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
okay so virtue's ruin isn't on the list. you're trying to imply that whites are virtuous here... except what's ruining them? there's nothing depicted here as ruining them, where is the racist act? where is the real world inference to an event that has destroyed or persecuted a people? see it just doesn't work, however you can make the leap from destroy all black creatures to ethnic cleansing by titling the card cleanse. we use to talk about this on the playground back in like 94', the inference is definitely there.
mtgs censors a lot of the discussion sure, but at the same time the threads tend to devolve into ranting and raving, or go extremely off topic, or people get really nasty toward each other. while a forum is the place for discussion, there does have to be some type of order to it, it can't be a lawless land of insults
to those claiming it had the opposite effect and trumped up the pricing... well it didn't, not entirely. these cards are old and on the reserved list, a lot of them were already higher priced, that's not new. additionally what a lot of stores did (troll & toad, card kingdom) was to pull their stock completely and purposely tank the price. sure someone somewhere has a bunch of these now and could profit... but they're banned everywhere. who cares? why care?
to the person saying their racist vocabulary increased and thats not a good thing... well isn't it? i mean you're aware its a racial slur now, so one would have to assume you're not going to use it and would speak out against it in the future, unless you're saying you're not against using it and intend to add it to your repertoire of insults?
look these cards have existed for like 28 years. maybe they weren't talked about in your playgroups, but in a lot of mine they were. i've been playing for 26 years, and without fail every single group i've been a part of has spoken about these at some point or another. yes, all of them. they've also been talked about to some degree in print magazines like inquest (generally pointing it out and spinning it as a joke), so this isn't new.
some people bring up slippery slope, and who knows where the line will be drawn, but honestly... when a person can walk up to the table, pick up a card, and say that's racist... well there's your line. thats it. right there. you don't really get to dictate what another person, or group of people, find offensive just because you don't find it to be that way. just because you, or you, or that other other guy doesn't find it racist, someone else might, or a group of people might. pradesh gypsies and stone throwing devils being two perfect examples of something that we just kind of tolerated or weren't aware of for decades but are definitely racist to those groups of people.
stop and think about the culture and community around this game. if these things make the game unapproachable to new players, or make existing ones uncomfortable... is that healthy? is that good for the game? why do you want that?
we've seen how many arguments along the exact same lines when something has been labeled sexist? how about all the latest comments in regard to trans and gay characters? just look at the kinnan and nikara threads, or hop into the way back machine and look at the tiro thread. magic has a really toxic community and this has made a lot of people uncomfortable as a great big spotlight has been shined on it
the cards are not altered, they're not censored, wotc is just saying we made a mistake in our past and we don't want these cards used in our events, anywhere because of the implications of them and how they effect our community. you can still own them, you can still hoard them, you can still proudly display them if you want... you just can't use them in sanctioned events because of these reasons.
so really, if we're not willing to change the culture around the game beginning with this tiny step in the right direction, why not? why is it okay to alienate players? it doesn't matter how you personally feel about these not being racist, if someone else feels that way about them, why is it okay to allow that? that doesn't mean we're going to start labeling random things as racist, it just means the identifiable parts that are racist need to go, for the sake of everyone.
magic, and the spaces its played in, should be welcoming and accepting of all. you're there to play cards, thats the common bond, foster that. if you can't... is this the right game and community for you?
And addressing division is not the same as creating it.
If a person calls another person a rock-throwing devil I would have recognized that as an insult. It is a pretty obvious one.
The only people who gain something from that knowledge are literally the racists how just found a new toy to play with.
Also I am not entirely sure if I am your ally. I just want to treat all people with common decency regardless of who they are.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Aren’t there grades of wrongdoing, though? There are harsher penalties for hate crimes, even if both actions are illegal. There are many insults I can sling at someone that won’t rise (sink?) to the same level as the n-word, and the different reactions they provoke will be correspondingly disproportionate. You might recognize an insult, but what’s the threshold for you to stand up and risk your personal wellbeing for a stranger?
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
No. You don’t impede, stymie, or outright censor a necessary conversation just because there are bad faith actors. There will always be bad faith actors, and locking or deleting threads only perpetuates the status quo.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Invoke Predjudice, Stone-Throwing Devils, Pradesh Gypsies all understandable. Jihad, Crusade, Cleanse and Imprison seem reaching.
Current EDH Decks:
Dakkon Blackblade 2WUUB
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG