I find Zendikar an absolutely boring Plane without Eldrazi. Again, like showing up to Kentucky Fried Chicken and finding you can only get a salad.
I may be in the minority, but I know I'm not alone.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Except for many other players what defines Zendikar for them is not the Eldrazi, and for many of those players BFZ block was a disappointment. It was a popular reaction to the block to wish the Eldrazi weren't there. WotC has said as much. This will be the Zendikar return for those fans who didn't want the Eldrazi. That's just where the numbers lie.
Personally I always found the Magic narrative best when it treated their worlds like living, breathing systems that are subject to change and growth (or destruction). It gives the whole thing stakes and a sense of realness and progression.
Now planes are just brands, like the planeswalkers. There's no drama. Brands cannot die. They can only be discarded. (Shoutout to Kamigawa, Lorwyn and Ulgrotha.) There is no urgency. There are no stakes. There is no excitement beyond the vending machine playing a safe and predictable jingle you've grown to love associate with positive feelings.
But whatever. I know this is an unpopular opinion but understanding you're in the minority doesn't mean you have to like what the majority is forcing the game's narrative to be.
Thank you. Your post is a breath of fresh air.
As you say, whenever Karn reaches new Phyrexia, he will win, the Phyrexians will be destroyed, blah blah blah, yawn. It would be interesting if Karn goes there, gets beat, gets assimilated for realsies and goes on to spread to another plane, ruining it.
What is going to happen on Zendikar, they all sit in a circle and sing kum bye yah? Omnath plants a flower garden? Boring.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Except for many other players what defines Zendikar for them is not the Eldrazi, and for many of those players BFZ block was a disappointment. It was a popular reaction to the block to wish the Eldrazi weren't there. WotC has said as much. This will be the Zendikar return for those fans who didn't want the Eldrazi. That's just where the numbers lie.
Rise of the Eldrazi was the amazing, revolutionary prog-rock album that the masses didn't understand.
Then, Battle for Zendikar was a cover of that album by a no-talent teenage boy band. It was Magic's Puberty Love.
And then WotC had the stones to be like, "I guess that's what you get when great artists cover crappy source material" and signed the boy band to a 10-album contract.
Yes, of course BFZ was garbage. It and OGW were literally, without hyperbole, the worst sets since Homelands and quite possibly the worst Magic sets ever. BFZ / OGW Eldrazi were awful. That doesn't mean that Zendikar was better without the Eldrazi. The Eldrazi were the mystery that made ZEN and WWK interesting. ROE was a masterpiece. You take the Eldrazi away, you need to put something else in their place, because otherwise there is no hook to the setting. Calling Zendikar "the adventure plane" or whatever they're rolling with is a complete non-statement, and unless WotC comes up with a stronger identity for Zendikar minus Eldrazi, pretty soon it's going to be Magic's worst setting.
Yeah, not going to agree with that. We've had full on Zendikar. We've had Eldrazikar. People like the former, and are very mixed on the latter. It's fine to say that you have a preference, but it's pretty silly to act like Zendikar has no identity/is bad/whatever else without the Eldrazi. Or to blame it on Battle for Zendikar when the issue is the Eldrazi in general. People like Zendikar itself, really all there is to it.
Except for many other players what defines Zendikar for them is not the Eldrazi, and for many of those players BFZ block was a disappointment. It was a popular reaction to the block to wish the Eldrazi weren't there. WotC has said as much. This will be the Zendikar return for those fans who didn't want the Eldrazi. That's just where the numbers lie.
And those players can certainly feel that the plane is better without the Eldrazi, but unfortunately for them they are part of the plane's story. BFZ block was terrible, no doubt about it, but it really wasn't the Eldrazi that made it terrible, but the cards and mechanics of them. It seems like to not put any Eldrazi there, even if they do exist on the plane currently, is just trying to ignore part of what made that plane special in the first place and part of its story.
It's similar to not having slivers in Dominaria, of course it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but I know I was disappointed that there was no hint of them, but slivers aren't exactly one of the defining features of the plane itself.
If the Eldrazi were fully wiped out then yes not seeing them them would make sense, but there should be some sort of lingering affect of them, either through parts of the land still be affected by when they were around or even a Saga remembering what had occurred.
Yeah, not going to agree with that. We've had full on Zendikar. We've had Eldrazikar. People like the former, and are very mixed on the latter. It's fine to say that you have a preference, but it's pretty silly to act like Zendikar has no identity/is bad/whatever else without the Eldrazi. Or to blame it on Battle for Zendikar when the issue is the Eldrazi in general. People like Zendikar itself, really all there is to it.
It was really BFZ I feel that was the issue rather than the Eldrazi themselves. Look, there's really no reason to avoid the Eldrazi else you look like Disney trying to ignore the sequel trilogy just because they did bad by the 9th movie. The best thing to do would be to accept that BFZ was terrible and keep Zendikar feeling more alive by not trying to ignore a section of its past.
Not... really. The Eldrazi titans are wiped out (and as the lesser Eldrazi are the equivalent of their fingers or the like this takes care of the tiny ones). Unless you want Emrakul to break free and invade there really isn't any Eldrazi to deal with. This is just following the lore they set up. To have more Eldrazi you need to either bring out a new titan (which would not likely be met with resounding success and lead to Zendikar being invaded again) or use Emrakul (which likewise is not really a great option, especially as to do so would be ignoring Innistrad). None of this is ignoring history here.
Or to blame it on Battle for Zendikar when the issue is the Eldrazi in general.
This is like saying "don't blame Wood Elemental when the problem is green creatures in general."
You can't generalize Eldrazi based on ROE on the one hand and BFZ / OGW on the other. Apples and oranges. They just slapped devoid on a bunch of godawfully-designed cards that had no mechanical connection to the ROE Eldrazi and called it a good. That BFZ / OGW Eldrazi are nominally colorless is barely even relevant, and battlecruiser is almost a total non-factor. You just can't compare these two eras.
And, even if you just want to talk about the Eldrazi from a creative standpoint, Eldritch Moon totally invalidates your argument. A decent enough set by itself, and arguably the best creative work done with the Eldrazi in Magic. So, there is no issue with the Eldrazi in general. There is a specific issue with the raging garbage fire that was BFZ / OGW, including but not limited to the Eldrazi printed therein.
Also, just in case there's any misunderstanding: I don't WANT the Eldrazi back on Zendikar. Because of BFZ / OGW, that combination is forever ruined. I'm just saying that Zendikar without the Eldrazi is a bottom-tier, generic fantasy setting made popular mostly by peppering booster packs with chase ultra-mythics. As a setting, Ixalan does everything non-Eldrazi Zendikar does, only 10x better. WotC could fix that: no matter how badly they screwed it up in BFZ / OGW, they could still make Zendikar into a compelling and unique setting again. But the way MaRo pins Zendikar's problems on the Eldrazi, it makes me think that WotC didn't really understand their mistakes in BFZ / OGW, and hasn't learned anything from them.
I'm not sure one instance of Eldrazi being met with success (Eldritch Moon) really qualifies them as a success, especially as the tone and setting are vastly different from how they were on Zendikar. But given you think that Zendikar is a bottom-tier plane not like there is a ton of merit in trying to debate that with you, your opinions are simply radically different from how much people who play Magic feel.
I'm not sure one instance of Eldrazi being met with success (Eldritch Moon) really qualifies them as a success, especially as the tone and setting are vastly different from how they were on Zendikar. But given you think that Zendikar is a bottom-tier plane not like there is a ton of merit in trying to debate that with you, your opinions are simply radically different from how much people who play Magic feel.
I didn't say Zendikar was a bottom-tier plane. I said that Zendikar without the Eldrazi is a bottom-tier plane. Also, I'm not trying to characterize the Eldrazi as a success: ROE was a design and development success, EMN was a creative success, and the Eldrazi therein were buoyed by those sets' successes. BFZ / OGW were failures on just about every imaginable level, and the Eldrazi were just about sunk by those sets' failures. The Eldrazi have a very mixed record.
But you can't blame the Eldrazi for Zendikar's failings. Even if MaRo does this.
And the reason he's doing that is because it's his job to protect the Zendikar brand. Zendikar was a HUGELY popular, top-selling set. It was a top-selling set because it was peppered with ultra-chase cards. The idea of just being in the room when somebody cracked a priceless treasure was an event that drove MASSIVE interest in Zendikar organized play. All of the Secret Lairs and VIP packs and Deluxe Editions of today got their start with the priceless treasure craze of the Zendikar era. And, when a set has that level of enthusiasm around it, why wouldn't people remember it fondly? That kind of social experience is fun. It's certainly a far cry from the cynicism and rolling catastrophes of organized play in this Simic Winter era. For a lot of players, Zendikar defines the "good old days" of Magic. And MaRo's job is to try to salvage that perception of Zendikar. That perception is big business.
Believe it or not, I don't have any problem with people remembering Zendikar fondly. (I do hate chase cards, but that's another issue.)
So, as to the point in continuing to debate this: I think that if you misattribute to the Zendikar setting a bunch of feelings that you have about the Zendikar set, you're positioning yourself for disappointment. A major part of the good creative work in ZEN / WWK was the buildup to the Eldrazi in ROE. The Roil; the mystery of the hedrons; the weird religions centered around Cosi, Ula, and Emeria: all of these were central to Zendikar's original creative identity. When you strip the Eldrazi away from Zendikar, what are you even doing? You're basically dumping it all out and going back to formula. Zendikar was never a generic "adventure" setting; it was never a setting without the Eldrazi. The things that people think they remember about the setting are really not things that the setting ever was. What I suspect players are remembering is the experience of playing Magic at the time of the original Zendikar set, which has more to do with the set's relatively high power level and the social phenomena around the set's chase gimmicks than any creative elements of the setting.
Here's the main thing: after BFZ / OGW, Zendikar is a setting in crisis. You can't go back to Zendikar's roots by removing the Eldrazi, because the Eldrazi ARE the roots. So, something else must be done to save it. You can't coast on chase gimmimcks, because BFZ / OGW had those same gimmicks and were hated. So, what are they going to do? They've got to add a new dimension to the setting, and it has to be good. Because simply taking away the Eldrazi doesn't leave much left.
It would be interesting if Karn goes there, gets beat, gets assimilated for realsies and goes on to spread to another plane, ruining it.
Man what if Karn goes to Phyrexia and they fairly and fully convince him that they have a right to exist and live the way they choose to, and Karn decides to become their protector while the rest of the Gatewatch is trying to eliminate them?
I'm not sure one instance of Eldrazi being met with success (Eldritch Moon) really qualifies them as a success, especially as the tone and setting are vastly different from how they were on Zendikar. But given you think that Zendikar is a bottom-tier plane not like there is a ton of merit in trying to debate that with you, your opinions are simply radically different from how much people who play Magic feel.
Well i know that RoE was a really good set and hyped in its time. People loved the twist of a "alien" invasion that had clues all over the previous set. They loved the Emrakul pre-release promo. Even in a Standard with Jace ms(or jund) ppl went to standard with ramp decks trying to play the titans. Saying RoE was a mistaken or not liked is a mistake or just misinformation. Do you want proof? Aside from the 3 Eldrazi titans? Well: The Level Up mechanic, Defenders matters where all reused in later products (level up in the duel deck tied with BFZ)(defenders in RtR, 2-3 blocks after). Gideon Jura, he became the main white walker even with heavy competition.
Do you really think the Eldrazi were not loved before BFZ? There would not even be a BFZ and SoI if it wasn't for the hype ppl had over the Eldrazi, it is not the creature type fault for what came from BFZ and OGW. WotC wanted to finish off storylines soo they rushed the Eldrazi, took 1-2 year to rush bolas and in the next 1-2 years will finish off new phyrexia.
Lets just hope that Theros' Titans are better villains than the Eldrazi.
Not... really. The Eldrazi titans are wiped out (and as the lesser Eldrazi are the equivalent of their fingers or the like this takes care of the tiny ones). Unless you want Emrakul to break free and invade there really isn't any Eldrazi to deal with. This is just following the lore they set up. To have more Eldrazi you need to either bring out a new titan (which would not likely be met with resounding success and lead to Zendikar being invaded again) or use Emrakul (which likewise is not really a great option, especially as to do so would be ignoring Innistrad). None of this is ignoring history here.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
Except for many other players what defines Zendikar for them is not the Eldrazi, and for many of those players BFZ block was a disappointment. It was a popular reaction to the block to wish the Eldrazi weren't there. WotC has said as much. This will be the Zendikar return for those fans who didn't want the Eldrazi. That's just where the numbers lie.
Rise of the Eldrazi was the amazing, revolutionary prog-rock album that the masses didn't understand.
Blaming people for being too stupid or uncultured or whatever to appreciate something is not the best move. Especially something like this, where one of the major complaints was that newer players were confused or felt tricked by the limited format, because expecting newer players to be up to your standards is unreasonable.
And then WotC had the stones to be like, "I guess that's what you get when great artists cover crappy source material" and signed the boy band to a 10-album contract.
Yes, of course BFZ was garbage. It and OGW were literally, without hyperbole, the worst sets since Homelands and quite possibly the worst Magic sets ever. BFZ / OGW Eldrazi were awful. That doesn't mean that Zendikar was better without the Eldrazi. The Eldrazi were the mystery that made ZEN and WWK interesting. ROE was a masterpiece. You take the Eldrazi away, you need to put something else in their place, because otherwise there is no hook to the setting. Calling Zendikar "the adventure plane" or whatever they're rolling with is a complete non-statement, and unless WotC comes up with a stronger identity for Zendikar minus Eldrazi, pretty soon it's going to be Magic's worst setting.
WotC at no point, despite your repeated claims, claimed that the only failure of BFZ was the inclusion of the Eldrazi, or that the inclusion of the Eldrazi lead to all the mistakes. But one of the major complaints against BFZ was that many players felt like the Eldrazi were too omnipresent, and a number of people just wanted to see plain Zendikar. And that's just a fact. Doesn't matter what you or I think of it, it happened. If BFZ block had been better executed in general it would have been better received even with the Eldrazi, but the Eldrazi were a negative for a lot of players. Maybe MaRo was wrong and there were enough pro-ELdrazi players to justify including them, but even still the anti-Eldrazi players are still there and they want their turn with Zendikar. The Eldrazi could show up elsewhere, and in fact they already did.
As far as Zendikar's identity, the first two Zendikar sets were very popular (and no, not just because of the treasures thing) without the Eldrazi. Sure, you could argue the Eldrazi's hidden background presence was a large part of that. I would argue that's not at all true though. The Eldrazi were hinted at in the first two sets, but this mystery captivated far fewer players I think than what you are giving it credit for. It just wasn't that big of a deal, and a lot of players really don't pay much attention to lore. People *did* like the 'Adventure plane'. People wanted BFZ to be exactly that. If the Eldrazi were definitively what made OG Zendikar block interesting, why did so many people want to get rid of them?
It's not like there won't be anything new going on here anyway.
When Zendikar first came out, it had a lot going on. It had the first appearance of enemy fetchlands. It had 'priceless treasures' repacked as a for-bearer of the lottery cards we got years later. Landfall was one of the best mechanics designed in a long time, finally overcoming the shortcomings of drawing unneeded lands late-game. It was the first block ever to feature vampires as a proper tribe (this was around the time that the Twilight movies were popular, so an obvious move), but most of all it was toted as Magic's version of a plane most resembling Dungeons and Dragons (which lets not forget that WotC also owns).
While Magic has never had an official crossover with D&D yet, D&D has had a couple Magic planes (Ravnica and Theros) as source material for campaigns. Zendikar was a sort of love letter to those of us who really loved the classic D&D settings and tropes. Adventuring guilds, quests for all sorts of reasons, deadly traps, the list goes on. To say that Zendikar has no identity without Eldrazi is pretty weak in my opinion.
Yeah the Eldrazi were the first big baddies introduced since Nicol Bolas came back in Alara block, and yes for better or worse they made quite an impact with their card designs. Sure they made a lasting impression on the Magic world in general, and I'm sure WotC has plans to use Emrakul down the line in some way or another...Flying Spaghetti Monster vs the New Phyrexians maybe?
I have high hopes that we can get more of the greatness of the Zendikar and Worldwake up ahead.
I liked Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch because I like Zendikar and Eldrazi.
I get they want to show Zendikar without Eldrazi, but I want more Eldrazi at some point. Zendikar is "the Eldrazi plane"
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it.
EXACTLY!!!
I'd be fine with 3 cards. All colorless, all middling power and toughness like a cycle of Remnant of Emrakul, Remnant of Ulamog, Remnant of Kozilek.
The rebels blow up Death Star 2.0 and that's the "end" of the Empire, except there are countless Empire bases, troops and worlds out in the Star Wars Universe. They all didn't just disappear instantly. The same applies here on Zendikar.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Not... really. The Eldrazi titans are wiped out (and as the lesser Eldrazi are the equivalent of their fingers or the like this takes care of the tiny ones). Unless you want Emrakul to break free and invade there really isn't any Eldrazi to deal with. This is just following the lore they set up. To have more Eldrazi you need to either bring out a new titan (which would not likely be met with resounding success and lead to Zendikar being invaded again) or use Emrakul (which likewise is not really a great option, especially as to do so would be ignoring Innistrad). None of this is ignoring history here.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
That’s literally what Ugin said though. All of the “spawn” were just pieces of the Eldrazi titans body. You killed the brain/heart equivalent, and all the rest died. You’d have to retcon things for the Eldrazi spawn to survive.
I actually quite like BFZ and Oath... but then I also enjoyed eldrazi winter... tho that is a different problem. The only thing I did'nt like about BFZ was... the expeditions... it just sent everyone into a frenzy opening the set more than it should, resulting in most of the cards being worthless... which I am actually oki with... so ya I quite like BFZ and Oath
That’s literally what Ugin said though. All of the “spawn” were just pieces of the Eldrazi titans body. You killed the brain/heart equivalent, and all the rest died. You’d have to retcon things for the Eldrazi spawn to survive.
Using internal consistency to justify anything in Magic is a pretty weak argument (unfortunately) considering how fast and loose Wizards likes to play with canon. Mirrodin was repopulated, the cursemute was reversed (or only partially applied), Nissa was taken over by a bodysnatcher with an entirely different personality. Hell, even the hedrons responded to the eldrazi being freed by reforming into new geometries and were used by them as tools. Then came BfZ and none of that was canon anymore. The hedron formations went back to pre-eldrazi level and suddenly hedrons hurt eldrazi and they avoided them as a result?
Yeah. Wizards is changing canon on a whim, because superhero comics did it too. And superhero comics were successful. So that must mean having a loose canon must make a franchise successful, right. Let us just totally ignore the context that made superhero comics so popular.
Also, Wizards (Maro?) said in the past that remnants of the eldrazi still exist on Zendikar. In fact remnants of Emrakul existed when Emrakul had already left the plane. Acting as if all eldrazi immediately die when the titan is no longer there would go against established canon.
Plus, Ugin's metaphor is not perfect. It is the closest (simple) explanation to how the eldrazi titans work, but not an exhaustive dissertation of the inner workings of eldrazi metabiology.
That’s literally what Ugin said though. All of the “spawn” were just pieces of the Eldrazi titans body. You killed the brain/heart equivalent, and all the rest died. You’d have to retcon things for the Eldrazi spawn to survive.
Using internal consistency to justify anything in Magic is a pretty weak argument (unfortunately) considering how fast and loose Wizards likes to play with canon. Mirrodin was repopulated, the cursemute was reversed (or only partially applied), Nissa was taken over by a bodysnatcher with an entirely different personality. Hell, even the hedrons responded to the eldrazi being freed by reforming into new geometries and were used by them as tools. Then came BfZ and none of that was canon anymore. The hedron formations went back to pre-eldrazi level and suddenly hedrons hurt eldrazi and they avoided them as a result?
Yeah. Wizards is changing canon on a whim, because superhero comics did it too. And superhero comics were successful. So that must mean having a loose canon must make a franchise successful, right. Let us just totally ignore the context that made superhero comics so popular.
Also, Wizards (Maro?) said in the past that remnants of the eldrazi still exist on Zendikar. In fact remnants of Emrakul existed when Emrakul had already left the plane. Acting as if all eldrazi immediately die when the titan is no longer there would go against established canon.
Plus, Ugin's metaphor is not perfect. It is the closest (simple) explanation to how the eldrazi titans work, but not an exhaustive dissertation of the inner workings of eldrazi metabiology.
It was in response to someone saying Zendikar not having Eldrazi is ignoring its history. While Wizards doesn’t need to follow canon if someone is going to argue that canon matters then they need to abide by that, and no Eldrazi is fitting that. Emrakul wasn’t dead, so her Eldrazi being on Zendikar isn’t an issue, while Maro has repeatedly said he’s not a story guy. Using him as evidence of canon isn’t a good call.
Well it was well-received at the time, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Zendikar was poorly designed from the start… if the aim was to be a site for multiple visits.
As a single block, I think that the original Zendikar was brilliant. The first two sets created an intriguing hook while setting up a deep lore that we were able to explore through the lens of “adventure world” while Rise of the Eldrazi was a suitable pay-off. Even ignoring the hidden treasures and higher power level, the flavor of the block was pretty spot-on… for a single trip.
Unfortunately, the high degree of focus on the Eldrazi in the world-building of the original Zendikar kind of came back to bite it in the butt. Having the ancient ruins, hedrons, and mystery cults all come back to the Eldrazi made for a spectacular reveal in RoE but also meant that there was nothing really left to reveal or explore afterwards. The sort of dungeon-delving, trap-triggering adventures people want to see in adventure world typically expects those dungeons to have some sort of historical relevance within the setting and when every road leads down to Eldrazi… a lot of the romance of those ruins is gone. Likewise, any “fight off the big monster” type adventure/quest will likely pale in comparison to the Eldrazi that came before. In other words, going back to “adventure world” is really, really hard.
Instead of setting up future hooks for the plane to use, WotC ended the original block on a cliffhanger so there would still be a story to tell when we returned. While I can understand why Wizards would take that approach, I feel that it was a mistake. While a cliffhanger certainly allows things to continue in a logical manner, they were still using a block system and the story in Zendikar kind of sputters out the moment that the Eldrazi are defeated. This means that what should have been a climax to the Zendikar storyline, the Eldrazi appearing and being fought off, had to be stretched across 3 sets (Rise of the Eldrazi, Battle for Zendikar, and Oath of the Gatewatch). Can you imagine what it would have been like if the titular “war of the spark” had been actively raging over the course of all three Ravnica sets instead of being focused in the last one? Kind of miserable, I’d expect.
To be clear, I think that Wizards had plenty of opportunities to avoid this mess. If wizards had taken the time to hint at other mysteries, legendary heroes or villains, or mythic beasts in one-off cards and spare flavor text, Zendikar might be left with the seeds to restart “adventure world”. Because they focused so exclusively on adventure world, however, doing so is going to be really, really hard.
Again, I say “really, really hard” instead of impossible because I do think that rebooting Zendikar into a feasible adventure world can work, though there are only a couple of easy ways to do this (that I can see, anyway). Wizards can lean heavily into the allies and various forces, using social drama and warfare in a broken world or increased focus on guilds and wasteland adventures (theives' guild enforcer may be a sign of flavor to come) to create a different form of adventure (DND fans may remember “Red Hand of Doom”, a module largely surrounding warfare over dungeon crawling). Alternately, the elements and roil in Zendikar may end up doing a great aurora-style shuffle of the landscape, leaving the inhabitants of Zendikar in an unknown world waiting to be re-discovered, opening the way for wilderness-based adventures. Whatever happens, Rise of Zendikar is responsible for rebuilding the plane on both a physical and literary level and I hope that Wizards is up for the task.
Not... really. The Eldrazi titans are wiped out (and as the lesser Eldrazi are the equivalent of their fingers or the like this takes care of the tiny ones). Unless you want Emrakul to break free and invade there really isn't any Eldrazi to deal with. This is just following the lore they set up. To have more Eldrazi you need to either bring out a new titan (which would not likely be met with resounding success and lead to Zendikar being invaded again) or use Emrakul (which likewise is not really a great option, especially as to do so would be ignoring Innistrad). None of this is ignoring history here.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
The new design space I LOVED that OGW introduced was colorless mana now matters. MaRo has gone on record saying that to do more of that in future sets requires colorless mana resources set aside in the expansion design to make it work, but that’s always something I wish they explore more of, maybe in Zendikar Rising.
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I may be in the minority, but I know I'm not alone.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Indeed but even if Maro says Eldrazis are done and gone we will probably see 2 or 3 Eldrazis in the new set, maybe not in true creature form.
Thank you. Your post is a breath of fresh air.
As you say, whenever Karn reaches new Phyrexia, he will win, the Phyrexians will be destroyed, blah blah blah, yawn. It would be interesting if Karn goes there, gets beat, gets assimilated for realsies and goes on to spread to another plane, ruining it.
What is going to happen on Zendikar, they all sit in a circle and sing kum bye yah? Omnath plants a flower garden? Boring.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Then, Battle for Zendikar was a cover of that album by a no-talent teenage boy band. It was Magic's Puberty Love.
And then WotC had the stones to be like, "I guess that's what you get when great artists cover crappy source material" and signed the boy band to a 10-album contract.
Yes, of course BFZ was garbage. It and OGW were literally, without hyperbole, the worst sets since Homelands and quite possibly the worst Magic sets ever. BFZ / OGW Eldrazi were awful. That doesn't mean that Zendikar was better without the Eldrazi. The Eldrazi were the mystery that made ZEN and WWK interesting. ROE was a masterpiece. You take the Eldrazi away, you need to put something else in their place, because otherwise there is no hook to the setting. Calling Zendikar "the adventure plane" or whatever they're rolling with is a complete non-statement, and unless WotC comes up with a stronger identity for Zendikar minus Eldrazi, pretty soon it's going to be Magic's worst setting.
And those players can certainly feel that the plane is better without the Eldrazi, but unfortunately for them they are part of the plane's story. BFZ block was terrible, no doubt about it, but it really wasn't the Eldrazi that made it terrible, but the cards and mechanics of them. It seems like to not put any Eldrazi there, even if they do exist on the plane currently, is just trying to ignore part of what made that plane special in the first place and part of its story.
It's similar to not having slivers in Dominaria, of course it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but I know I was disappointed that there was no hint of them, but slivers aren't exactly one of the defining features of the plane itself.
If the Eldrazi were fully wiped out then yes not seeing them them would make sense, but there should be some sort of lingering affect of them, either through parts of the land still be affected by when they were around or even a Saga remembering what had occurred.
It was really BFZ I feel that was the issue rather than the Eldrazi themselves. Look, there's really no reason to avoid the Eldrazi else you look like Disney trying to ignore the sequel trilogy just because they did bad by the 9th movie. The best thing to do would be to accept that BFZ was terrible and keep Zendikar feeling more alive by not trying to ignore a section of its past.
You can't generalize Eldrazi based on ROE on the one hand and BFZ / OGW on the other. Apples and oranges. They just slapped devoid on a bunch of godawfully-designed cards that had no mechanical connection to the ROE Eldrazi and called it a good. That BFZ / OGW Eldrazi are nominally colorless is barely even relevant, and battlecruiser is almost a total non-factor. You just can't compare these two eras.
And, even if you just want to talk about the Eldrazi from a creative standpoint, Eldritch Moon totally invalidates your argument. A decent enough set by itself, and arguably the best creative work done with the Eldrazi in Magic. So, there is no issue with the Eldrazi in general. There is a specific issue with the raging garbage fire that was BFZ / OGW, including but not limited to the Eldrazi printed therein.
Also, just in case there's any misunderstanding: I don't WANT the Eldrazi back on Zendikar. Because of BFZ / OGW, that combination is forever ruined. I'm just saying that Zendikar without the Eldrazi is a bottom-tier, generic fantasy setting made popular mostly by peppering booster packs with chase ultra-mythics. As a setting, Ixalan does everything non-Eldrazi Zendikar does, only 10x better. WotC could fix that: no matter how badly they screwed it up in BFZ / OGW, they could still make Zendikar into a compelling and unique setting again. But the way MaRo pins Zendikar's problems on the Eldrazi, it makes me think that WotC didn't really understand their mistakes in BFZ / OGW, and hasn't learned anything from them.
But you can't blame the Eldrazi for Zendikar's failings. Even if MaRo does this.
And the reason he's doing that is because it's his job to protect the Zendikar brand. Zendikar was a HUGELY popular, top-selling set. It was a top-selling set because it was peppered with ultra-chase cards. The idea of just being in the room when somebody cracked a priceless treasure was an event that drove MASSIVE interest in Zendikar organized play. All of the Secret Lairs and VIP packs and Deluxe Editions of today got their start with the priceless treasure craze of the Zendikar era. And, when a set has that level of enthusiasm around it, why wouldn't people remember it fondly? That kind of social experience is fun. It's certainly a far cry from the cynicism and rolling catastrophes of organized play in this Simic Winter era. For a lot of players, Zendikar defines the "good old days" of Magic. And MaRo's job is to try to salvage that perception of Zendikar. That perception is big business.
Believe it or not, I don't have any problem with people remembering Zendikar fondly. (I do hate chase cards, but that's another issue.)
So, as to the point in continuing to debate this: I think that if you misattribute to the Zendikar setting a bunch of feelings that you have about the Zendikar set, you're positioning yourself for disappointment. A major part of the good creative work in ZEN / WWK was the buildup to the Eldrazi in ROE. The Roil; the mystery of the hedrons; the weird religions centered around Cosi, Ula, and Emeria: all of these were central to Zendikar's original creative identity. When you strip the Eldrazi away from Zendikar, what are you even doing? You're basically dumping it all out and going back to formula. Zendikar was never a generic "adventure" setting; it was never a setting without the Eldrazi. The things that people think they remember about the setting are really not things that the setting ever was. What I suspect players are remembering is the experience of playing Magic at the time of the original Zendikar set, which has more to do with the set's relatively high power level and the social phenomena around the set's chase gimmicks than any creative elements of the setting.
Here's the main thing: after BFZ / OGW, Zendikar is a setting in crisis. You can't go back to Zendikar's roots by removing the Eldrazi, because the Eldrazi ARE the roots. So, something else must be done to save it. You can't coast on chase gimmimcks, because BFZ / OGW had those same gimmicks and were hated. So, what are they going to do? They've got to add a new dimension to the setting, and it has to be good. Because simply taking away the Eldrazi doesn't leave much left.
Man what if Karn goes to Phyrexia and they fairly and fully convince him that they have a right to exist and live the way they choose to, and Karn decides to become their protector while the rest of the Gatewatch is trying to eliminate them?
Well i know that RoE was a really good set and hyped in its time. People loved the twist of a "alien" invasion that had clues all over the previous set. They loved the Emrakul pre-release promo. Even in a Standard with Jace ms(or jund) ppl went to standard with ramp decks trying to play the titans. Saying RoE was a mistaken or not liked is a mistake or just misinformation. Do you want proof? Aside from the 3 Eldrazi titans? Well: The Level Up mechanic, Defenders matters where all reused in later products (level up in the duel deck tied with BFZ)(defenders in RtR, 2-3 blocks after). Gideon Jura, he became the main white walker even with heavy competition.
Do you really think the Eldrazi were not loved before BFZ? There would not even be a BFZ and SoI if it wasn't for the hype ppl had over the Eldrazi, it is not the creature type fault for what came from BFZ and OGW. WotC wanted to finish off storylines soo they rushed the Eldrazi, took 1-2 year to rush bolas and in the next 1-2 years will finish off new phyrexia.
Lets just hope that Theros' Titans are better villains than the Eldrazi.
That's under the idea that all the Eldrazi were wiped out just because Kozilek and Ulamog were killed, but I'm sure this isn't like taking out the mother ship and the rest of the minions go down.
No one is really arguing that the set has to be filled with Eldrazi, just that it would be strange to not show any. Personally, I'd be fine with 3-10 Eldrazi cards, and that's it. At the very least seeing art and lore that shows that BFZ happened and not go "don't pay attention to the damage and history over there, look over hereto the full art lands, quests, and traps."
Blaming people for being too stupid or uncultured or whatever to appreciate something is not the best move. Especially something like this, where one of the major complaints was that newer players were confused or felt tricked by the limited format, because expecting newer players to be up to your standards is unreasonable.
Oh, BFZ was definitely badly executed on a number of levels.
WotC at no point, despite your repeated claims, claimed that the only failure of BFZ was the inclusion of the Eldrazi, or that the inclusion of the Eldrazi lead to all the mistakes. But one of the major complaints against BFZ was that many players felt like the Eldrazi were too omnipresent, and a number of people just wanted to see plain Zendikar. And that's just a fact. Doesn't matter what you or I think of it, it happened. If BFZ block had been better executed in general it would have been better received even with the Eldrazi, but the Eldrazi were a negative for a lot of players. Maybe MaRo was wrong and there were enough pro-ELdrazi players to justify including them, but even still the anti-Eldrazi players are still there and they want their turn with Zendikar. The Eldrazi could show up elsewhere, and in fact they already did.
As far as Zendikar's identity, the first two Zendikar sets were very popular (and no, not just because of the treasures thing) without the Eldrazi. Sure, you could argue the Eldrazi's hidden background presence was a large part of that. I would argue that's not at all true though. The Eldrazi were hinted at in the first two sets, but this mystery captivated far fewer players I think than what you are giving it credit for. It just wasn't that big of a deal, and a lot of players really don't pay much attention to lore. People *did* like the 'Adventure plane'. People wanted BFZ to be exactly that. If the Eldrazi were definitively what made OG Zendikar block interesting, why did so many people want to get rid of them?
It's not like there won't be anything new going on here anyway.
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While Magic has never had an official crossover with D&D yet, D&D has had a couple Magic planes (Ravnica and Theros) as source material for campaigns. Zendikar was a sort of love letter to those of us who really loved the classic D&D settings and tropes. Adventuring guilds, quests for all sorts of reasons, deadly traps, the list goes on. To say that Zendikar has no identity without Eldrazi is pretty weak in my opinion.
Yeah the Eldrazi were the first big baddies introduced since Nicol Bolas came back in Alara block, and yes for better or worse they made quite an impact with their card designs. Sure they made a lasting impression on the Magic world in general, and I'm sure WotC has plans to use Emrakul down the line in some way or another...Flying Spaghetti Monster vs the New Phyrexians maybe?
I have high hopes that we can get more of the greatness of the Zendikar and Worldwake up ahead.
I get they want to show Zendikar without Eldrazi, but I want more Eldrazi at some point. Zendikar is "the Eldrazi plane"
EXACTLY!!!
I'd be fine with 3 cards. All colorless, all middling power and toughness like a cycle of Remnant of Emrakul, Remnant of Ulamog, Remnant of Kozilek.
The rebels blow up Death Star 2.0 and that's the "end" of the Empire, except there are countless Empire bases, troops and worlds out in the Star Wars Universe. They all didn't just disappear instantly. The same applies here on Zendikar.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
That’s literally what Ugin said though. All of the “spawn” were just pieces of the Eldrazi titans body. You killed the brain/heart equivalent, and all the rest died. You’d have to retcon things for the Eldrazi spawn to survive.
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Using internal consistency to justify anything in Magic is a pretty weak argument (unfortunately) considering how fast and loose Wizards likes to play with canon. Mirrodin was repopulated, the cursemute was reversed (or only partially applied), Nissa was taken over by a bodysnatcher with an entirely different personality. Hell, even the hedrons responded to the eldrazi being freed by reforming into new geometries and were used by them as tools. Then came BfZ and none of that was canon anymore. The hedron formations went back to pre-eldrazi level and suddenly hedrons hurt eldrazi and they avoided them as a result?
Yeah. Wizards is changing canon on a whim, because superhero comics did it too. And superhero comics were successful. So that must mean having a loose canon must make a franchise successful, right. Let us just totally ignore the context that made superhero comics so popular.
Also, Wizards (Maro?) said in the past that remnants of the eldrazi still exist on Zendikar. In fact remnants of Emrakul existed when Emrakul had already left the plane. Acting as if all eldrazi immediately die when the titan is no longer there would go against established canon.
Plus, Ugin's metaphor is not perfect. It is the closest (simple) explanation to how the eldrazi titans work, but not an exhaustive dissertation of the inner workings of eldrazi metabiology.
It was in response to someone saying Zendikar not having Eldrazi is ignoring its history. While Wizards doesn’t need to follow canon if someone is going to argue that canon matters then they need to abide by that, and no Eldrazi is fitting that. Emrakul wasn’t dead, so her Eldrazi being on Zendikar isn’t an issue, while Maro has repeatedly said he’s not a story guy. Using him as evidence of canon isn’t a good call.
As a single block, I think that the original Zendikar was brilliant. The first two sets created an intriguing hook while setting up a deep lore that we were able to explore through the lens of “adventure world” while Rise of the Eldrazi was a suitable pay-off. Even ignoring the hidden treasures and higher power level, the flavor of the block was pretty spot-on… for a single trip.
Unfortunately, the high degree of focus on the Eldrazi in the world-building of the original Zendikar kind of came back to bite it in the butt. Having the ancient ruins, hedrons, and mystery cults all come back to the Eldrazi made for a spectacular reveal in RoE but also meant that there was nothing really left to reveal or explore afterwards. The sort of dungeon-delving, trap-triggering adventures people want to see in adventure world typically expects those dungeons to have some sort of historical relevance within the setting and when every road leads down to Eldrazi… a lot of the romance of those ruins is gone. Likewise, any “fight off the big monster” type adventure/quest will likely pale in comparison to the Eldrazi that came before. In other words, going back to “adventure world” is really, really hard.
Instead of setting up future hooks for the plane to use, WotC ended the original block on a cliffhanger so there would still be a story to tell when we returned. While I can understand why Wizards would take that approach, I feel that it was a mistake. While a cliffhanger certainly allows things to continue in a logical manner, they were still using a block system and the story in Zendikar kind of sputters out the moment that the Eldrazi are defeated. This means that what should have been a climax to the Zendikar storyline, the Eldrazi appearing and being fought off, had to be stretched across 3 sets (Rise of the Eldrazi, Battle for Zendikar, and Oath of the Gatewatch). Can you imagine what it would have been like if the titular “war of the spark” had been actively raging over the course of all three Ravnica sets instead of being focused in the last one? Kind of miserable, I’d expect.
To be clear, I think that Wizards had plenty of opportunities to avoid this mess. If wizards had taken the time to hint at other mysteries, legendary heroes or villains, or mythic beasts in one-off cards and spare flavor text, Zendikar might be left with the seeds to restart “adventure world”. Because they focused so exclusively on adventure world, however, doing so is going to be really, really hard.
Again, I say “really, really hard” instead of impossible because I do think that rebooting Zendikar into a feasible adventure world can work, though there are only a couple of easy ways to do this (that I can see, anyway). Wizards can lean heavily into the allies and various forces, using social drama and warfare in a broken world or increased focus on guilds and wasteland adventures (theives' guild enforcer may be a sign of flavor to come) to create a different form of adventure (DND fans may remember “Red Hand of Doom”, a module largely surrounding warfare over dungeon crawling). Alternately, the elements and roil in Zendikar may end up doing a great aurora-style shuffle of the landscape, leaving the inhabitants of Zendikar in an unknown world waiting to be re-discovered, opening the way for wilderness-based adventures. Whatever happens, Rise of Zendikar is responsible for rebuilding the plane on both a physical and literary level and I hope that Wizards is up for the task.
The set is called 'Zendikar Rising'. Why do you think it's 'rising'? Look at some of the art they've revealed already also— the set will very clearly have a theme of being in the aftermath of the Eldrazi. There won't be any actual Eldrazi on plane or on cards, but their former presence will clearly be felt in art and lore.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice