Rosewater just couldn't resist putting a subtle jab based on his complete misunderstanding of hybrid mana into the spoiler article.
If this were a non-Commander set, we'd solve this problem with hybrid cards, but Commander is the one format where hybrid is treated as "and" rather than "or" (a blue-red hybrid card can only go into a blue and red deck, not a blue deck or a red deck), so hybrid was off the table as a solution.
ALL formats treat hybrid as "and" considering the card is at all times, in library, hand, stack, battlefield, or graveyard, BOTH of its colors. Commander, the only format with a color identity deck-building restriction, applies this color logic to the deck-building aspect, as well. He's so hung up on how it's supposed to be easier to cast that he forgets it is always "and" not "or." It just bugs me that he misunderstands that fundamental piece. And I'm not a Maro hater; this is the only topic I publicly disagree with him on, but it's getting really old. I've lost hope that he will ever try to understand the logic.
As for the cards, I like the design of Szat's Will and am really curious what other cards will have that design.
Encore is like flashback for creatures. That Tutor though...hello sought-after money card of the set, among many others probably. Wasn't expecting Tevesh Tzat to look like that. I guess I got too used to it being featured on cards like Malicious Advice and Dark Suspicions but ehn it'll do.
Now all we need is Leshrac and boom we're golden. And Taysir. And Greensleeves. and Kristina of the Wood BUT that last one is a stretch.
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HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset. Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Rosewater just couldn't resist putting a subtle jab based on his complete misunderstanding of hybrid mana into the spoiler article.
If this were a non-Commander set, we'd solve this problem with hybrid cards, but Commander is the one format where hybrid is treated as "and" rather than "or" (a blue-red hybrid card can only go into a blue and red deck, not a blue deck or a red deck), so hybrid was off the table as a solution.
ALL formats treat hybrid as "and" considering the card is at all times, in library, hand, stack, battlefield, or graveyard, BOTH of its colors. Commander, the only format with a color identity deck-building restriction, applies this color logic to the deck-building aspect, as well. He's so hung up on how it's supposed to be easier to cast that he forgets it is always "and" not "or." It just bugs me that he misunderstands that fundamental piece. And I'm not a Maro hater; this is the only topic I publicly disagree with him on, but it's getting really old. I've lost hope that he will ever try to understand the logic.
As for the cards, I like the design of Szat's Will and am really curious what other cards will have that design.
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
You are right when you say that Hybrid is AND about what color a card is. But hybrid was designed in a similar way cross-race cards exists in tribal sets. Like Commander 2017 had a Vampire Wizard that could go either in the Vampire deck or the Wizard deck. Of course the card is both a Vampire and a Wizard. But it does not require a deck to care about both types for it to be useful.
In a similar way, a G/W hybrid card is both Green AND White, but it's designed so it could be played in a Green deck OR a White deck (of course, a Green AND White deck fulfill both requirements, so the card can be played in it too). In order for this to be true, the design of hybrid cards should be restricted to effects either color could do on its own. So, while a Green Black card could say "Destroy target permanent", a Green/Black hybrid should not. It has to make sense as a monogreen card and as a monoblack card.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
I understand when you say that Commander happens to be a format that cares about color identity for deck building. So it is expected that things work differently than other formats that does not use this restriction for deck building. But "Color identity" wasn't a thing in the rules until Commander's Rules Comitee decided it should work this way. They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
He may have designed it, but he does misunderstand how it fits into Commander, a format he neither plays nor particularly likes. There are already hundreds or thousands of posts on this subject, so we shouldn't delve into it too much here, but I'll respond in brief.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
Not to play semantics, but is a mono-blue deck with red, green, white, and black cards in it really a mono-blue deck? You may only have Islands, but if your card can be countered by Blue Elemental Blast or Lifeforce, destroyed by Deathmark or Noxious Grasp, searched for with a Sunforger or Natural Order, or is an illegal target for Doom Blade because it's black, it aint mono-blue!
Now, in most formats, you may call a deck a certain color based on its mana-base, sort of like how a "mono-black" reanimator deck can run Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Inkwell Leviathan even though it has no way to cast said card and must rely on discarding and reanimating them.
But Commander cares about the color of the cards during deckbuilding, and this is where Mark fails to understand.
They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
They didn't choose it to always be both - the rules say that. They did choose to have it matter in deckbuilding and not just game play. Mark may have chosen otherwise, but A) he's not in charge of the format and should give it a rest, and B) his way would lead to more confusion.
"Here's my mono-white deck. I tap five plains and cast Divinity of Pride."
"I hit it with Doom Blade."
"You can't do that, it's black."
"You said it was mono-white. You tapped all white."
"Yeah, but it's both. At all times. In every zone."
"So your deck is white and black? But your commander is mono-white."
"It is, but I also have a green Kitchen Finks, a red..."
"This game is stupid and makes no sense!"
----------
Briarblade Adept gives me hope for encore - not because I think it's a particularly good card, but because it has a cheap encore cost (even cheaper than it's regular cost). I was worried they might all be outrageously expensive like Phyrexian Triniform.
Fans of old characters are going to be happy. WTF is Tvesh Szat anyway? A demon gorgon or something?
Used to be a human, from Dominaria, who became a planeswalker and then turned evil, assuming a "draconic serpentine" form. See the Gamepedia Wiki for a lot more info.
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
He may have designed it, but he does misunderstand how it fits into Commander, a format he neither plays nor particularly likes. There are already hundreds or thousands of posts on this subject, so we shouldn't delve into it too much here, but I'll respond in brief.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
Not to play semantics, but is a mono-blue deck with red, green, white, and black cards in it really a mono-blue deck? You may only have Islands, but if your card can be countered by Blue Elemental Blast or Lifeforce, destroyed by Deathmark or Noxious Grasp, searched for with a Sunforger or Natural Order, or is an illegal target for Doom Blade because it's black, it aint mono-blue!
Now, in most formats, you may call a deck a certain color based on its mana-base, sort of like how a "mono-black" reanimator deck can run Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Inkwell Leviathan even though it has no way to cast said card and must rely on discarding and reanimating them.
But Commander cares about the color of the cards during deckbuilding, and this is where Mark fails to understand.
They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
They didn't choose it to always be both - the rules say that. They did choose to have it matter in deckbuilding and not just game play. Mark may have chosen otherwise, but A) he's not in charge of the format and should give it a rest, and B) his way would lead to more confusion.
"Here's my mono-white deck. I tap five plains and cast Divinity of Pride."
"I hit it with Doom Blade."
"You can't do that, it's black."
"You said it was mono-white. You tapped all white."
"Yeah, but it's both. At all times. In every zone."
"So your deck is white and black? But your commander is mono-white."
"It is, but I also have a green Kitchen Finks, a red..."
"This game is stupid and makes no sense!"
----------
Briarblade Adept gives me hope for encore - not because I think it's a particularly good card, but because it has a cheap encore cost (even cheaper than it's regular cost). I was worried they might all be outrageously expensive like Phyrexian Triniform.
Dude, color and color identity have never been the same thing. Every single effect in the game treats Alesha, Who Smiles at Death as a monored creature, but she hasa Mardu color identity. Doom Blade kills her, Lifeforce doesn't counter her, etc. Why is the reverse, multicolored cards having monocolor identities, so absurd when hybrid was designed that way?
Please, mill me. Mill my important cards. Mill my lands. Mill it all. Because I will still deal 20 damage before you can mill 45 cards most every time.
Dude, color and color identity have never been the same thing. Every single effect in the game treats Alesha, Who Smiles at Death as a monored creature, but she hasa Mardu color identity. Doom Blade kills her, Lifeforce doesn't counter her, etc. Why is the reverse, multicolored cards having monocolor identities, so absurd when hybrid was designed that way?
There's a difference between adding to a card's identity because it has extra symbols on the card vs. totally pretending a card isn't one of the colors that the rules say it is. And for the last time, hybrid was NOT designed to be either/or; it was designed to be easier to cast while still being both colors. There has never been, in any card set or ruling, a hybrid that is only the color used to cast it.
This is straying far away from the purpose of this thread - namely the spoiled cards - so I'm not going to continue discussing it here. We have a thread in the Commander forum, but it has already been rehashed dozens of times.
Is the hybrid "issue" really that difficult when it comes down to it? Yes, hybrid cards are both colors in terms of rules (AND), but the intention behind them is to make it so the cost can be paid with either color and the card can be played even in a mono-colored deck (OR). So what it comes down to is what you value higher: The letter-of-the-rules stuff or the designer's intention/gameplay stuff.
Is the hybrid "issue" really that difficult when it comes down to it? Yes, hybrid cards are both colors in terms of rules (AND), but the intention behind them is to make it so the cost can be paid with either color and the card can be played even in a mono-colored deck (OR). So what it comes down to is what you value higher: The letter-of-the-rules stuff or the designer's intention/gameplay stuff.
The problem if we start going down that road is what do you do about phyrexian mana? The intention is that you can use life instead of mana, and every deck can pay life. What about reanimator strategies who don't even cast their big creatures? Alternate casting cost with no coloured mana requirements such as Salvage Titan? Potentially free spells such as Archive Trap or Ravenous Trap? There is all kind of cards in Magic that can ignore normal casting cost. Why favour hybrid versus everything else?
I personally only see two options:
- Keep the rules as is
- Get rid of the commander identity restriction but restrict mana production: a deck can only produce mana colours in its commander's colour identity.
I'm fine with both of those scenarios but anything in between just won't feel right.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Like, it's clearly not cEDH good but is this card good enough to use in a decent "75% deck" where it doesn't specifically synergize with the commander (AKA: not Yawgmoth, or Aristocrats)? It does a lot of good things that a lot of decks need, will almost never be a dead card, is instant speed, and is highly splashable... but it costs 5 and doesn't quite seem "good enough" if the commander isn't out.
I really can't get a read on this card. Is this good?
So what it comes down to is what you value higher: The letter-of-the-rules stuff or the designer's intention/gameplay stuff.
Maro has told the story several times about how his crusade to create squirrels began when he designed a card (Waiting in the Weeds) with the intent to make squirrel tokens. The art description said there were eyes but we couldn't see what type of animal they were. Then the art came back with cats, plain as day, so the card was changed. So, I assume you give your blessing to the world to start telling our playgroups that the designer's intent was squirrels, so my copy now produces squirrels instead of cats because the intent is more important than the letter of the rules?
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
He may have designed it, but he does misunderstand how it fits into Commander, a format he neither plays nor particularly likes. There are already hundreds or thousands of posts on this subject, so we shouldn't delve into it too much here, but I'll respond in brief.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
Not to play semantics, but is a mono-blue deck with red, green, white, and black cards in it really a mono-blue deck? You may only have Islands, but if your card can be countered by Blue Elemental Blast or Lifeforce, destroyed by Deathmark or Noxious Grasp, searched for with a Sunforger or Natural Order, or is an illegal target for Doom Blade because it's black, it aint mono-blue!
Now, in most formats, you may call a deck a certain color based on its mana-base, sort of like how a "mono-black" reanimator deck can run Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Inkwell Leviathan even though it has no way to cast said card and must rely on discarding and reanimating them.
But Commander cares about the color of the cards during deckbuilding, and this is where Mark fails to understand.
They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
They didn't choose it to always be both - the rules say that. They did choose to have it matter in deckbuilding and not just game play. Mark may have chosen otherwise, but A) he's not in charge of the format and should give it a rest, and B) his way would lead to more confusion.
"Here's my mono-white deck. I tap five plains and cast Divinity of Pride."
"I hit it with Doom Blade."
"You can't do that, it's black."
"You said it was mono-white. You tapped all white."
"Yeah, but it's both. At all times. In every zone."
"So your deck is white and black? But your commander is mono-white."
"It is, but I also have a green Kitchen Finks, a red..."
"This game is stupid and makes no sense!"
----------
Briarblade Adept gives me hope for encore - not because I think it's a particularly good card, but because it has a cheap encore cost (even cheaper than it's regular cost). I was worried they might all be outrageously expensive like Phyrexian Triniform.
Dude, color and color identity have never been the same thing. Every single effect in the game treats Alesha, Who Smiles at Death as a monored creature, but she hasa Mardu color identity. Doom Blade kills her, Lifeforce doesn't counter her, etc. Why is the reverse, multicolored cards having monocolor identities, so absurd when hybrid was designed that way?
Whenever I see this argument, I bring up my good friend, Rosheen Meanderer. If the hybrid symbol goes to meaning "Or" instead of "And", does that mean that legends with a single hybrid symbol in their cost have to choose which color they are instead of being both?
Mind you, I use Rosheen Meanderer as the example as it's the only legendary creature with a single hybrid symbol on it (at least to my knowledge). People playing with good Rhys could say "The symbol in the cost is white while the symbols in the text are green so I get both colors", which is kind of unintuitive... and which kind of makes it hard to design legends with only a single hybrid mana in the card.
Again, though, only a single card (not counting Jorgantha, who doesn't have any problems with color identity) actually brings this problem to light so far. It may already be an unofficial design guideline.
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
He may have designed it, but he does misunderstand how it fits into Commander, a format he neither plays nor particularly likes. There are already hundreds or thousands of posts on this subject, so we shouldn't delve into it too much here, but I'll respond in brief.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
Not to play semantics, but is a mono-blue deck with red, green, white, and black cards in it really a mono-blue deck? You may only have Islands, but if your card can be countered by Blue Elemental Blast or Lifeforce, destroyed by Deathmark or Noxious Grasp, searched for with a Sunforger or Natural Order, or is an illegal target for Doom Blade because it's black, it aint mono-blue!
Now, in most formats, you may call a deck a certain color based on its mana-base, sort of like how a "mono-black" reanimator deck can run Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Inkwell Leviathan even though it has no way to cast said card and must rely on discarding and reanimating them.
But Commander cares about the color of the cards during deckbuilding, and this is where Mark fails to understand.
They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
They didn't choose it to always be both - the rules say that. They did choose to have it matter in deckbuilding and not just game play. Mark may have chosen otherwise, but A) he's not in charge of the format and should give it a rest, and B) his way would lead to more confusion.
"Here's my mono-white deck. I tap five plains and cast Divinity of Pride."
"I hit it with Doom Blade."
"You can't do that, it's black."
"You said it was mono-white. You tapped all white."
"Yeah, but it's both. At all times. In every zone."
"So your deck is white and black? But your commander is mono-white."
"It is, but I also have a green Kitchen Finks, a red..."
"This game is stupid and makes no sense!"
----------
Briarblade Adept gives me hope for encore - not because I think it's a particularly good card, but because it has a cheap encore cost (even cheaper than it's regular cost). I was worried they might all be outrageously expensive like Phyrexian Triniform.
Dude, color and color identity have never been the same thing. Every single effect in the game treats Alesha, Who Smiles at Death as a monored creature, but she hasa Mardu color identity. Doom Blade kills her, Lifeforce doesn't counter her, etc. Why is the reverse, multicolored cards having monocolor identities, so absurd when hybrid was designed that way?
Whenever I see this argument, I bring up my good friend, Rosheen Meanderer. If the hybrid symbol goes to meaning "Or" instead of "And", does that mean that legends with a single hybrid symbol in their cost have to choose which color they are instead of being both?
They are green-red, but you can build them as a mono-green or mono-red deck if you feel like it, which … is the entire point, basically.
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Mark tells the first part of Commander Legends' six years in design, and Gavin talks about the contents of a Collector's Booster.
EDIT: The rules article for encore just went up.
Anyone want a monarch token that finally has no typo?
but this reprint was so needed though
And I prefer the normal art of szat rather than the promo
and that will is decent and consider that added to the art of horrifying art along with Ad Nauseam
Really like szats will, both parts work really well together and ayara says yes please
Also much prefer this art for szat himself
Right? The EA one looks like a slightly better rendering of a Diablo 2 cutscene. Woof.
Also, isn't Tvesh Szat like a dragon descendent? Why does he look like a naga-lovecraft monster?
As for the cards, I like the design of Szat's Will and am really curious what other cards will have that design.
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Encore is like flashback for creatures. That Tutor though...hello sought-after money card of the set, among many others probably. Wasn't expecting Tevesh Tzat to look like that. I guess I got too used to it being featured on cards like Malicious Advice and Dark Suspicions but ehn it'll do.
Now all we need is Leshrac and boom we're golden. And Taysir. And Greensleeves. and Kristina of the Wood BUT that last one is a stretch.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Mark being the one who designed Hybrid Mana, it's hard to think he "misunderstands" it.
You are right when you say that Hybrid is AND about what color a card is. But hybrid was designed in a similar way cross-race cards exists in tribal sets. Like Commander 2017 had a Vampire Wizard that could go either in the Vampire deck or the Wizard deck. Of course the card is both a Vampire and a Wizard. But it does not require a deck to care about both types for it to be useful.
In a similar way, a G/W hybrid card is both Green AND White, but it's designed so it could be played in a Green deck OR a White deck (of course, a Green AND White deck fulfill both requirements, so the card can be played in it too). In order for this to be true, the design of hybrid cards should be restricted to effects either color could do on its own. So, while a Green Black card could say "Destroy target permanent", a Green/Black hybrid should not. It has to make sense as a monogreen card and as a monoblack card.
So, while in any format a monoblue deck can play U/R, U/G, U/W and U/B hybrid cards. In commander, none of these cards can be in a monoblue deck. So it doesn't care about what cards you are able to cast, but about other qualities of the card.
I understand when you say that Commander happens to be a format that cares about color identity for deck building. So it is expected that things work differently than other formats that does not use this restriction for deck building. But "Color identity" wasn't a thing in the rules until Commander's Rules Comitee decided it should work this way. They could very well have chosen to rule that the color identity of hybrid mana is either or both of the colors, but they've chosen to make it always be both. Maro says that he would've chosen differently, and that's all to his point.
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
What typo? O.o
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
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Now, in most formats, you may call a deck a certain color based on its mana-base, sort of like how a "mono-black" reanimator deck can run Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Inkwell Leviathan even though it has no way to cast said card and must rely on discarding and reanimating them.
But Commander cares about the color of the cards during deckbuilding, and this is where Mark fails to understand. They didn't choose it to always be both - the rules say that. They did choose to have it matter in deckbuilding and not just game play. Mark may have chosen otherwise, but A) he's not in charge of the format and should give it a rest, and B) his way would lead to more confusion.
"Here's my mono-white deck. I tap five plains and cast Divinity of Pride."
"I hit it with Doom Blade."
"You can't do that, it's black."
"You said it was mono-white. You tapped all white."
"Yeah, but it's both. At all times. In every zone."
"So your deck is white and black? But your commander is mono-white."
"It is, but I also have a green Kitchen Finks, a red..."
"This game is stupid and makes no sense!"
----------
Briarblade Adept gives me hope for encore - not because I think it's a particularly good card, but because it has a cheap encore cost (even cheaper than it's regular cost). I was worried they might all be outrageously expensive like Phyrexian Triniform.
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Used to be a human, from Dominaria, who became a planeswalker and then turned evil, assuming a "draconic serpentine" form. See the Gamepedia Wiki for a lot more info.
Dude, color and color identity have never been the same thing. Every single effect in the game treats Alesha, Who Smiles at Death as a monored creature, but she hasa Mardu color identity. Doom Blade kills her, Lifeforce doesn't counter her, etc. Why is the reverse, multicolored cards having monocolor identities, so absurd when hybrid was designed that way?
This is straying far away from the purpose of this thread - namely the spoiled cards - so I'm not going to continue discussing it here. We have a thread in the Commander forum, but it has already been rehashed dozens of times.
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The problem if we start going down that road is what do you do about phyrexian mana? The intention is that you can use life instead of mana, and every deck can pay life. What about reanimator strategies who don't even cast their big creatures? Alternate casting cost with no coloured mana requirements such as Salvage Titan? Potentially free spells such as Archive Trap or Ravenous Trap? There is all kind of cards in Magic that can ignore normal casting cost. Why favour hybrid versus everything else?
I personally only see two options:
- Keep the rules as is
- Get rid of the commander identity restriction but restrict mana production: a deck can only produce mana colours in its commander's colour identity.
I'm fine with both of those scenarios but anything in between just won't feel right.
the original was missing “of” in the reminder text
Like, it's clearly not cEDH good but is this card good enough to use in a decent "75% deck" where it doesn't specifically synergize with the commander (AKA: not Yawgmoth, or Aristocrats)? It does a lot of good things that a lot of decks need, will almost never be a dead card, is instant speed, and is highly splashable... but it costs 5 and doesn't quite seem "good enough" if the commander isn't out.
I really can't get a read on this card. Is this good?
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Whenever I see this argument, I bring up my good friend, Rosheen Meanderer. If the hybrid symbol goes to meaning "Or" instead of "And", does that mean that legends with a single hybrid symbol in their cost have to choose which color they are instead of being both?
Mind you, I use Rosheen Meanderer as the example as it's the only legendary creature with a single hybrid symbol on it (at least to my knowledge). People playing with good Rhys could say "The symbol in the cost is white while the symbols in the text are green so I get both colors", which is kind of unintuitive... and which kind of makes it hard to design legends with only a single hybrid mana in the card.
Again, though, only a single card (not counting Jorgantha, who doesn't have any problems with color identity) actually brings this problem to light so far. It may already be an unofficial design guideline.