This is a good card, but it’s not as amazing as everyone is saying it is. The mana is all 1 color. It’s not like you’re going to get many commanders out turn 1 or 2 with this card and start running the table. Any commander that’s 3 colors or more isn’t going to get much of a tempo boost from this unless it’s a really expensive commander.
This is a good card, but it’s not as amazing as everyone is saying it is. The mana is all 1 color. It’s not like you’re going to get many commanders out turn 1 or 2 with this card and start running the table. Any commander that’s 3 colors or more isn’t going to get much of a tempo boost from this unless it’s a really expensive commander.
Well, if i have to consider all my decks...
Ghave come out on turn 2
Gahiji turn 2 too
Rith on turn 3
Gishath on turn 5
And they are all tricolored...
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
At least it's useless in Ulamog, Kozilek, and other colorless decks!
It's not useless in colourless decks. I can tap this for BBB, and use that to help cast my Ulamog.
Yeah... Realized that shortly after posting and facepalmed.
Perhaps I just didn't consider this for colorless decks because I wouldn't include gilded lotus or coalition relic in a colorless build
I was initially bothered when I saw this card, but thinking of all it's uses in the decks that I am building and using, it isn't AS great as I originally thought. It is comparable to Mox Amber with it's use in commander, and highly specific. If you get it in you opening hand, cool, if not, if can be used later for commander tax as I stated on the first page of this thread. It only has it's intended use towards paying for your commander to come out, but honestly, that's it. What makes Black Lotus amazing is that it can be used for anything in the game, which is why Lion's Eye Diamond is so powerful as well in many formats. The greater the reach that the card can contribute with varied formats, will better state how powerful a card is. This card is frankly not as powerful as the hype around it is generating, and I am going to be patiently waiting until long after the release of this set for it's price to drop heavily before I pick one up.
Go ahead and quibble about how it’s a dead card when you’re commander is out and protected (so you’re already in a strong position if not winning).
It puts out your commander early or pays for tax. There are extremely few decks where this isn’t an auto-include.
I think I'll find a way to not include it in any of my decks from Goreclaw to Daretti, Tariel to Phenax, Atraxa to Torbran, Mazirek to Melek, Scarab God to Ravos+Kraum, R/G Omnath to Tiana. In any of those Daretti and Goreclaw are the only two that really wants to get out turn one or far faster than they normally would, but then I have no protection and I put a target on my back so large I might as well scoop then and there.
I'll find a way to survive without it. Sol Ring is far more auto include than this shiny flower.
Go ahead and quibble about how it’s a dead card when you’re commander is out and protected (so you’re already in a strong position if not winning).
It puts out your commander early or pays for tax. There are extremely few decks where this isn’t an auto-include.
I think I'll find a way to not include it in any of my decks from Goreclaw to Daretti, Tariel to Phenax, Atraxa to Torbran, Mazirek to Melek, Scarab God to Ravos+Kraum, R/G Omnath to Tiana. In any of those Daretti and Goreclaw are the only two that really wants to get out turn one or far faster than they normally would, but then I have no protection and I put a target on my back so large I might as well scoop then and there.
I'll find a way to survive without it. Sol Ring is far more auto include than this shiny flower.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better. and this is the issue people are having with it. obviously you can easily just not put that card in your deck and the deck will still funcion... in the same way that you can take out sol ring from decks you are running it in and be still fine.
i don't think this wil be a problem in casual decks but it might be an issue when played in optimized builds or cedh decks.
in the end this is a card that the format do not need and noone asked for.
I'm always confused by the way people who hate every new card that comes out use the phrase 'no one asked for this' and its permutations. Like, are we only OK with them printing exactly the cards we tell them to? What's the logic there? And what cards does the format 'need?' Is this just a vote for 'no change?' I think that's pretty boring, and would definitionally result in the death of the game.
FWIW I'm happy this card exists, because it is kind of exciting in the right build but definitely not going to break anything realistically. Powerful new cards that take a little work to make happen get the motor running. Lotus is absolutely not correct in every build, which is exactly the mistake in card evaluation that is driving the presale price into completely untenable territory, but it'll be awesome in the decks that want it if it is drawn early.
More and more it feels like maybe I'm the crazy one for enjoying the game and getting hyped for new cards.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
Depends on the commander. The list is extremely long.
Selvala? Sure thats a lot of value fast
Tatyova turn 2? That gets obscene fast
A lot of 3-6 drop legends werent designed to be pooped out so fast and that can cause big problems really fast.
The thing is a lot of people like to use the dies to removal excuse, but that i dont think thats valid.
First, outside of cedh most people are removal light favoring whatever their gameplan is over shoring that strategy up. Then theres that most aim for ramp in their opening hand, meaning the odds they pitched what little removal they run are significantly higher.
Also dont forget resources. This is something a lot seem to just ignore. You dump out your 4 drop commander t1, thats more resources freed up for utility over the next few turns. Youre not tied up with that commander cost.
It becomes exceptionally easy to outrace a table, even more so when its a casual table.
Thats where this is going to have the most imbalanced impact.
I guess I'm in the not only is it not busted but it's not even that good column.
I just don't see it.
You power something out early that puts a target on that commander or your back.
Do you really even get any benefit from a turn 1 commander that you cant use its abilities because you have no other mana to cast other things or use it's abilities?
And of course all this requires 1 out of 99 cards to be in your opening hand.
We shall see, but I will be selling every single one to people that want to pay a ridiculous amount for something that will either tank when it's found out to not be that good or banned if found out to be too good.
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i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
Depends on the commander. The list is extremely long.
Selvala? Sure thats a lot of value fast
Tatyova turn 2? That gets obscene fast
A lot of 3-6 drop legends werent designed to be pooped out so fast and that can cause big problems really fast.
The thing is a lot of people like to use the dies to removal excuse, but that i dont think thats valid.
First, outside of cedh most people are removal light favoring whatever their gameplan is over shoring that strategy up. Then theres that most aim for ramp in their opening hand, meaning the odds they pitched what little removal they run are significantly higher.
Also dont forget resources. This is something a lot seem to just ignore. You dump out your 4 drop commander t1, thats more resources freed up for utility over the next few turns. Youre not tied up with that commander cost.
It becomes exceptionally easy to outrace a table, even more so when its a casual table.
Thats where this is going to have the most imbalanced impact.
I think you're wildly mistaken about removal in non-cedh. And that you have to outrace 3 or more opponents. Jeweled Lotus is the infect of mana rocks - nice to maybe knock out one opponent, but you're not likely to take the whole table.
Plus, if you think casual doesn't run a lot of removal due to not being more competitive, why the hell would they run Jeweled Lotus?
I'd have the opposite view if the JL mana could also be used to activate commander abilities, though. Then it'd justify the price tag it has now. But as it is, it's not worth playing just for the fraction of the time you'll have this in your opening hand.
I'm going to push back on the idea that running your commander out early with this -isn't- a good thing.
Most decks are built around their commander, since that's how this format works. Powering your focus out potentially 3 turns earlier is very strong. Yes it will garner hate from the table, but we all still play Sol Ring for the most part in spite of that.
My position, however, is that this card:
A) Isn't good enough at doing its job in a large number of decks. Generals with color-intensive cmcs are popular and really don't want this that much (I'm not putting it in Alela or Omnath), and
B) Even in decks where it is perhaps busted-good the fact that it is basically a dead draw later in the game should relegate it to a very narrow set of gameplans (contrary to what some folks are saying, you would ABSOLUTELY NOT play a card that 4/5 times just pays your commander tax once.)
The fact that it can't be used to cast any card other than your commander is a gigantic drawback that people aren't going to fully understand until they play it and get really sad while their $100+ card sits there doing nothing.
I'm putting a copy in Najeela, because that deck specifically wants her up and running ASAP and isn't terribly concerned with the late game, and also trying a copy out in Korvold because that's a deck where I'm already running Dark Ritual to run him out early and the floor on Lotus in that deck is 0, Sac: Draw a card which is acceptable. I don't see it being good enough in the rest of my lists.
I don't think it's busted and I don't think the sky is falling. I am absolutely going to add this to my Kozilek, BoT deck because all that deck wants to do is get to ten mana anyway.
As a few people have already said, I think Lotus can lead to more "non-games," games where one player gets an obscenely fast start and the game is over shortly thereafter.
I don't think this goes in every deck, but it is really good in some decks, usually decks that are already very strong: in Urza you can power out a T1 Urza and, late game, it's a Mox Sapphire; in Korvold, as with Urza, it's never really a "dead" card.
The card will change the landscape of the format but it is high-risk/high-reward. I don't think this is better than Ring/Crypt or even LED much of the time.
The problem with Lotus, if there is one, will not be with its ubiquity, but with its propensity to swing games. Arcane Signet is problematic because very few non-green (and many green) decks want to run it. This will not be the case with Lotus, and that's not just because it will (initially) be pricey.
I guess I still don't get the Urza thing.
Turn 1 : land, Jeweled lotus, crack, Urza .... ok nothing else
Table kills urza
Turn 2 : Now your commander costs six
If we are always assuming god hands, I'll assume someone on the table has turn 1 removal as well
With Cedh, maybe it'll be a problem, but casual tables will hate it out
I guess I still don't get the Urza thing.
Turn 1 : land, Jeweled lotus, crack, Urza .... ok nothing else
Table kills urza
Turn 2 : Now your commander costs six
If we are always assuming god hands, I'll assume someone on the table has turn 1 removal as well
You play Urza, with a bazillion of artifacts.
Turn 1 Urza into artifacts means you have a insane advantage over the entire table and you threaten to win in short order after.
In cEDH especially you play a lot less creature removal, as the vast majority of threats are spells and not creatures slowly grinding around.
And theres a ton of free counters too for having your commander out.
----
The entire power of this card is the SPEED it provides, and if that doesnt matter in the game you are playing, you could argue that banning all the Moxes, Lotus and power cards isnt actually meaningful anyway, as they provide just mana advantages compared to other spells.
Combo Commanders in general threaten to win the moment they resolve and the earlier and more surprisingly you can do that, the more of a threat they are.
If the table is full of removal, you still need the extra 3 mana to play the commander and have backup answers available.
With all the 1 mana counterspells and free counters, you can very well deal with the 2+ removal spells the table has against your commander, and if they fail to remove it, you untap and reap the rewards.
Especially as you are not the only enemy at the table, as all the other players will try to ramp into their commanders asap too, and the one that stick theirs is in a piloting position to win the game.
All this exactly.
Thats about the best god hand your talking about.
You just happen to have land, jeweled lotus, multiple free artifacts and multiple 1 mana or free counters in your hand.
Well good for you
To be fair, that's just exactly Urza's gameplan. I had it built for a while and he's always feast or famine depending on the draw. If you have Urza, a land, lotus, and a piece of interaction for 0-1 mana (there's a lot) you're in a really good spot turn 1.
Urza was already doing precisely that with the currently available fast mana though. Lotus is just more of the same for him, makes the deck slightly more consistent but no more explosive really.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.
Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
All this exactly.
Thats about the best god hand your talking about.
You just happen to have land, jeweled lotus, multiple free artifacts and multiple 1 mana or free counters in your hand.
Well good for you
And you're assuming the absolute worst possible case every single game. You're assuming that every other player A: Runs 1 mana removal and B: Has the mana to cast that one mana removal.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
And you're assuming the absolute worst possible case every single game. You're assuming that every other player A: Runs 1 mana removal and B: Has the mana to cast that one mana removal.
Welcome to the world of optimistic and pessimistic people
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.
Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
It's not useless in colourless decks. I can tap this for BBB, and use that to help cast my Ulamog.
Well, if i have to consider all my decks...
Ghave come out on turn 2
Gahiji turn 2 too
Rith on turn 3
Gishath on turn 5
And they are all tricolored...
Yeah... Realized that shortly after posting and facepalmed.
Perhaps I just didn't consider this for colorless decks because I wouldn't include gilded lotus or coalition relic in a colorless build
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I think I'll find a way to not include it in any of my decks from Goreclaw to Daretti, Tariel to Phenax, Atraxa to Torbran, Mazirek to Melek, Scarab God to Ravos+Kraum, R/G Omnath to Tiana. In any of those Daretti and Goreclaw are the only two that really wants to get out turn one or far faster than they normally would, but then I have no protection and I put a target on my back so large I might as well scoop then and there.
I'll find a way to survive without it. Sol Ring is far more auto include than this shiny flower.
i don't think this wil be a problem in casual decks but it might be an issue when played in optimized builds or cedh decks.
in the end this is a card that the format do not need and noone asked for.
FWIW I'm happy this card exists, because it is kind of exciting in the right build but definitely not going to break anything realistically. Powerful new cards that take a little work to make happen get the motor running. Lotus is absolutely not correct in every build, which is exactly the mistake in card evaluation that is driving the presale price into completely untenable territory, but it'll be awesome in the decks that want it if it is drawn early.
More and more it feels like maybe I'm the crazy one for enjoying the game and getting hyped for new cards.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
Depends on the commander. The list is extremely long.
Selvala? Sure thats a lot of value fast
Tatyova turn 2? That gets obscene fast
A lot of 3-6 drop legends werent designed to be pooped out so fast and that can cause big problems really fast.
The thing is a lot of people like to use the dies to removal excuse, but that i dont think thats valid.
First, outside of cedh most people are removal light favoring whatever their gameplan is over shoring that strategy up. Then theres that most aim for ramp in their opening hand, meaning the odds they pitched what little removal they run are significantly higher.
Also dont forget resources. This is something a lot seem to just ignore. You dump out your 4 drop commander t1, thats more resources freed up for utility over the next few turns. Youre not tied up with that commander cost.
It becomes exceptionally easy to outrace a table, even more so when its a casual table.
Thats where this is going to have the most imbalanced impact.
I just don't see it.
You power something out early that puts a target on that commander or your back.
Do you really even get any benefit from a turn 1 commander that you cant use its abilities because you have no other mana to cast other things or use it's abilities?
And of course all this requires 1 out of 99 cards to be in your opening hand.
We shall see, but I will be selling every single one to people that want to pay a ridiculous amount for something that will either tank when it's found out to not be that good or banned if found out to be too good.
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I think you're wildly mistaken about removal in non-cedh. And that you have to outrace 3 or more opponents. Jeweled Lotus is the infect of mana rocks - nice to maybe knock out one opponent, but you're not likely to take the whole table.
Plus, if you think casual doesn't run a lot of removal due to not being more competitive, why the hell would they run Jeweled Lotus?
I'd have the opposite view if the JL mana could also be used to activate commander abilities, though. Then it'd justify the price tag it has now. But as it is, it's not worth playing just for the fraction of the time you'll have this in your opening hand.
Most decks are built around their commander, since that's how this format works. Powering your focus out potentially 3 turns earlier is very strong. Yes it will garner hate from the table, but we all still play Sol Ring for the most part in spite of that.
My position, however, is that this card:
A) Isn't good enough at doing its job in a large number of decks. Generals with color-intensive cmcs are popular and really don't want this that much (I'm not putting it in Alela or Omnath), and
B) Even in decks where it is perhaps busted-good the fact that it is basically a dead draw later in the game should relegate it to a very narrow set of gameplans (contrary to what some folks are saying, you would ABSOLUTELY NOT play a card that 4/5 times just pays your commander tax once.)
The fact that it can't be used to cast any card other than your commander is a gigantic drawback that people aren't going to fully understand until they play it and get really sad while their $100+ card sits there doing nothing.
I'm putting a copy in Najeela, because that deck specifically wants her up and running ASAP and isn't terribly concerned with the late game, and also trying a copy out in Korvold because that's a deck where I'm already running Dark Ritual to run him out early and the floor on Lotus in that deck is 0, Sac: Draw a card which is acceptable. I don't see it being good enough in the rest of my lists.
As a few people have already said, I think Lotus can lead to more "non-games," games where one player gets an obscenely fast start and the game is over shortly thereafter.
I don't think this goes in every deck, but it is really good in some decks, usually decks that are already very strong: in Urza you can power out a T1 Urza and, late game, it's a Mox Sapphire; in Korvold, as with Urza, it's never really a "dead" card.
The card will change the landscape of the format but it is high-risk/high-reward. I don't think this is better than Ring/Crypt or even LED much of the time.
The problem with Lotus, if there is one, will not be with its ubiquity, but with its propensity to swing games. Arcane Signet is problematic because very few non-green (and many green) decks want to run it. This will not be the case with Lotus, and that's not just because it will (initially) be pricey.
Turn 1 : land, Jeweled lotus, crack, Urza .... ok nothing else
Table kills urza
Turn 2 : Now your commander costs six
If we are always assuming god hands, I'll assume someone on the table has turn 1 removal as well
With Cedh, maybe it'll be a problem, but casual tables will hate it out
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
You play Urza, with a bazillion of artifacts.
Turn 1 Urza into artifacts means you have a insane advantage over the entire table and you threaten to win in short order after.
In cEDH especially you play a lot less creature removal, as the vast majority of threats are spells and not creatures slowly grinding around.
And theres a ton of free counters too for having your commander out.
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The entire power of this card is the SPEED it provides, and if that doesnt matter in the game you are playing, you could argue that banning all the Moxes, Lotus and power cards isnt actually meaningful anyway, as they provide just mana advantages compared to other spells.
Combo Commanders in general threaten to win the moment they resolve and the earlier and more surprisingly you can do that, the more of a threat they are.
If the table is full of removal, you still need the extra 3 mana to play the commander and have backup answers available.
With all the 1 mana counterspells and free counters, you can very well deal with the 2+ removal spells the table has against your commander, and if they fail to remove it, you untap and reap the rewards.
Especially as you are not the only enemy at the table, as all the other players will try to ramp into their commanders asap too, and the one that stick theirs is in a piloting position to win the game.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Thats about the best god hand your talking about.
You just happen to have land, jeweled lotus, multiple free artifacts and multiple 1 mana or free counters in your hand.
Well good for you
Been on this forum for 10++ years
Playing since '94
Urza was already doing precisely that with the currently available fast mana though. Lotus is just more of the same for him, makes the deck slightly more consistent but no more explosive really.
You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.
Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
And you're assuming the absolute worst possible case every single game. You're assuming that every other player A: Runs 1 mana removal and B: Has the mana to cast that one mana removal.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Welcome to the world of optimistic and pessimistic people
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||