It's Magic's story, if you're expecting it to be better than *****ty you're kidding yourself.
I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
It's Magic's story, if you're expecting it to be better than *****ty you're kidding yourself.
I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
Well,in that case why even bring your opinion into the matter if you don't see the point and think the discussion is unimportant? Instead it feels like you just want to push your own opinion (Magic story always equals *****) and then stop it right there to have the last word.
Believe it or not, some people here do care and like at least some aspects of the story and do want to talk about it. I also feel like "*****ty writing" and "Mary Sue" have both become snarl words thrown against any story/character that people dislike, no matter the actual quality of it all. Not saying that the storyline is always great, but seriously, confusing ones own subjective likes/dislikes with objective criticism is astoundingly common in this thread and often on this forum as a whole.
That aside, if Wizards has done one thing relatively right (with a few exceptions) then it is mixing the common stereotypes about ancient cultures with some more realistic and not well-known aspects to create their fantasy counterparts. I wouldn't worry about horns, ships, valkyries and definitely muscles to appear to fulfill your wildest viking stereotype dreams. Just probably mixed with some less well-known facts about them probably.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
It's Magic's story, if you're expecting it to be better than *****ty you're kidding yourself.
I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
okay but like... there were many years where it wasn't crap.
it turned into a self fulfilling prophecy. bad writers and players being turned off by it. they start saying it was *****ty and buy less. less resources into it making it *****tier. then the mending happened because we hit the peak of ***** mountain. (though some of ravnica was good) and now we're climbing right back up to the top to knock down that flag and put up another one.
the modern era is awful for storytelling and it really doesn't have to be. it doesn't help that it IS bad and so many players now just say whatever its ***** and it'll always be ***** so stop wasting time on it while minimal effort is really put into it. its a huge factor in what keeps the cards interesting too. for a lot of people its as much about the story conveyed through the cards as it is what the cards actually do.
I think MTG overall has done a respectable job of taking the material, making it their own, hitting the more recognizable aspects of the source material while staying true to enough of the deeper cuts to keep those familiar with it satisfied. It’s a fair balance between Kamigawa level delving and the need to be relatable and meet public standards expectations. I won’t fault them for that.
I think MTG overall has done a respectable job of taking the material, making it their own, hitting the more recognizable aspects of the source material while staying true to enough of the deeper cuts to keep those familiar with it satisfied. It’s a fair balance between Kamigawa level delving and the need to be relatable and meet public standards expectations. I won’t fault them for that.
On that we agree.
One of the cool things that the packaging kinda hints at is the possibility of seeing again large scale conflict (armies) on a plane, which is nice in my opinion as the last set to really have any huge battles was War of the Spark, and Ikoria to an extent.
Ikoria's lore had big battles between two opposing assemblages, but as one of the sides was just mind-controlled monsters I'm unsure if it counts.
Then again, Bolas's army in War of the Spark was also majorly comprised of necor-dominated zombies so I guess Iokoria would qualify just as well.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
It's Magic's story, if you're expecting it to be better than *****ty you're kidding yourself.
I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
Well,in that case why even bring your opinion into the matter if you don't see the point and think the discussion is unimportant? Instead it feels like you just want to push your own opinion (Magic story always equals *****) and then stop it right there to have the last word.
Believe it or not, some people here do care and like at least some aspects of the story and do want to talk about it. I also feel like "*****ty writing" and "Mary Sue" have both become snarl words thrown against any story/character that people dislike, no matter the actual quality of it all. Not saying that the storyline is always great, but seriously, confusing ones own subjective likes/dislikes with objective criticism is astoundingly common in this thread and often on this forum as a whole.
That aside, if Wizards has done one thing relatively right (with a few exceptions) then it is mixing the common stereotypes about ancient cultures with some more realistic and not well-known aspects to create their fantasy counterparts. I wouldn't worry about horns, ships, valkyries and definitely muscles to appear to fulfill your wildest viking stereotype dreams. Just probably mixed with some less well-known facts about them probably.
Eh, I still stand by what I said. Arguing for four or five pages about pretty out there nothing theories is definitely not important and I regret reading through it hehe, but I don't think my opinion matters much anyway and so whatever if I throw it into the pile. Not meant to end a conversation or say "this is how it is!". It's obviously subjective, so don't worry if you disagree with me. It's alright.
I'm Danish and I know all that "But vikings didn't have horns!!" stuff. I don't care if it's unrealistic, it's fantasy stuff, go full 80's heavy metal album cover vikings. Don't take themselves too serious, just go all out with it. Make it a little different than the way the art direction has generally been. I think most people would think that was cool and not just be my personal "wildest viking sterotype dreams". Ridiculous lol.
I doubt they'll go that direction given the leaked figures and stuff we've seen so far. Probably be a lot of subversion of expectations lol. I'm still looking forward to seeing more revealed from the set though. I'm hyped for vikings and snow.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
That's a lot of words you put in my mouth. But who am I to stop you from being mad at a straw man. The point is some people here are misusing the term Mary Sue and have not been consistent at all in their criticism. I get that you really don't like Kaya. Trust me, we can tell. But none of that makes her a Mary Sue or a bad character or whatever. Just the amount of vitriol directed at this one character and the inconsistency is just so incongruous.
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Protection from reason (Decadent_Creed can't be blocked, targeted, dealt damage, or enchanted by reason.)
It's Magic's story, if you're expecting it to be better than *****ty you're kidding yourself.
I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
Well,in that case why even bring your opinion into the matter if you don't see the point and think the discussion is unimportant? Instead it feels like you just want to push your own opinion (Magic story always equals *****) and then stop it right there to have the last word.
Believe it or not, some people here do care and like at least some aspects of the story and do want to talk about it. I also feel like "*****ty writing" and "Mary Sue" have both become snarl words thrown against any story/character that people dislike, no matter the actual quality of it all. Not saying that the storyline is always great, but seriously, confusing ones own subjective likes/dislikes with objective criticism is astoundingly common in this thread and often on this forum as a whole.
That aside, if Wizards has done one thing relatively right (with a few exceptions) then it is mixing the common stereotypes about ancient cultures with some more realistic and not well-known aspects to create their fantasy counterparts. I wouldn't worry about horns, ships, valkyries and definitely muscles to appear to fulfill your wildest viking stereotype dreams. Just probably mixed with some less well-known facts about them probably.
Eh, I still stand by what I said. Arguing for four or five pages about pretty out there nothing theories is definitely not important and I regret reading through it hehe, but I don't think my opinion matters much anyway and so whatever if I throw it into the pile. Not meant to end a conversation or say "this is how it is!". It's obviously subjective, so don't worry if you disagree with me. It's alright.
I'm Danish and I know all that "But vikings didn't have horns!!" stuff. I don't care if it's unrealistic, it's fantasy stuff, go full 80's heavy metal album cover vikings. Don't take themselves too serious, just go all out with it. Make it a little different than the way the art direction has generally been. I think most people would think that was cool and not just be my personal "wildest viking sterotype dreams". Ridiculous lol.
I doubt they'll go that direction given the leaked figures and stuff we've seen so far. Probably be a lot of subversion of expectations lol. I'm still looking forward to seeing more revealed from the set though. I'm hyped for vikings and snow.
Alright, in that case we can agree to disagree quite easily.
And you misunderstood me (granted, I should have left out the word stereotype in my last sentence): I meant that in a fully positive way! As I said, I think Wizards are doing a pretty good job at handling this kind of stuff and I would love me some great vikings and snow as well! This was not at all meant deregatory at all We are in total agreement there.
Wait now I'm confused. Is she a bad person because of all her flaws or is she literally a flawless character because she's a Mary Sue?
I don't know enough about Kaya as a character to chime in, but I definitely know enough about Mary Sues (male/female/other) to tell you that a Mary Sue is not by its definition flawless.
A Mary Sue is characterized by the fact that in-universe characters and storylines bend around that character to enhance the way they are perceived, which can show itself by being perfectly flawless and universally liked with only token dissent from characters to facilitate stories but can be more subtle.
A trait of a Mary Sue is that they appear/are inserted into the setting and instantly rival or even best established powerful characters in their respective field without proper setup e. g. a new character - only the most egregious examples then also need to be complimented and praised by everyone around.
Just the ability to repeatedly resolve long-standing plotlines established characters struggled with and coming out looking good in the narrative is a valid justification to consider the terms applicability.
That doesn't mean that a reader outside the narrative cannot recognize their flaws.
Since Mary Sue's originate from fan fiction and inexperienced writers these extreme examples are the ones most thought about, but let's call it a gradient scale.
Like for the term fascism there is no one hard definition, but a checklist of characteristic properties that, if observed, point you in the direction of using the term, e. g. wikipedia suggests: "They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them,[2] or they may upstage the protagonist of a fictional setting, such as by saving them. They may disregard previously established aspects of the fiction such as characterization and natural laws."
So for someone, who considers the Rat-situation a break of established rules (or in analogy to color pie discussions - a severe bend of the rules that moves the perception of where the rules lie in an unhealthy way), that may make them consider Kaya a Mary Sue (taken together with the fact that planeswalker marketing makes for a out-of-universe presentation accentuating their positive traits).
From the little I know about the Rat-situation e. g. it might just be as likely that Rat is the Mary Sue and Kaya is just the tool used to bend the rules for their benefit.
I want to emphasize again that Magic is a multimedia franchise and part of the problem is that planeswalkers (at least the main cast) as a whole may very well be argued to intentionally be created and positioned as wish-fulfillment characters and inherently would have traits of a Mary Sue by design, by their very purpose.
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Heck, every day I wake up, I don't go out and kill people - and I'm rewarded by not having legions of enemies! Amazing how that works.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
One thing I do find kind of silly about the whole Kaya argument is that all they did was give Kaya some neat/unique powers. If they wanted to kill off the Obezdat or Brago or any other characters they don't need Kaya, they just come up with some other justification for their demise. Again, if you're upset about Kaya because she will "kill" people in Kaldheim (which isn't even a known and again not something exclusive to her) then you're missing the point that they don't need to use Kaya to kill people. If you remove Kaya from Kaldheim the net body count is going to be the same, they'll just have Chandra blow them up or Nissa turn them into a tree or whatever else. The reasons might be mildly different but long run I don't see any change.
Not exactly. Characters experience undeserved and unearned fortune all the time and that's not a problem.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
You cannot speak for all Vorthi Tiro. Vivian is disliked by a few Vorthi including myself, not because she is overpowered, but because she is extremist, and even this interpretation may very well just be associated with the initial depiction of her whilst on Ixalan. Vivian was a much more reasonable character in the Ikoria novel, which suggests to me at least that WotC took a hint.
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Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.
Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.
@Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.
What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
To be fair, Viven is actually the worst character in MTG. Although only Vorthos know that. I remember celebrating her depiction in Zack Stella art and thinking she had this amazing story of a lost home, hoping she would get revenge on Bolas someday, only to get a righteous eco-terrorist that only drove my criticism of OP Planeswalkers further by single-handedly leveling an entire advanced city of powerful vampire mages. Mages that are capable of conquering an entire continent and crossing an ocean to hold their own on another, but an whole city of them couldn't handle one person.
Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.
Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.
@Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.
What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
So you’re not debating the reasoning or arguments, just the actual individuals. Not very objective.
There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
Sounds like Fake News to me when the "ulterior motive" you've inferred is only your own delusion.
There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
Sounds like Fake News to me when the "ulterior motive" you've inferred is only your own delusion.
You guys just love misusing loaded buzzwords, don't you? First Mary Sue, then "CNN bad," now fake news. When a post is composed of marginally-related buzzwords why would anyone want to engage with that earnestly?
There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
Sounds like Fake News to me when the "ulterior motive" you've inferred is only your own delusion.
You’re welcome to say that but again the pattern is rather clear.
I remember maro saying when talking about the creation of basri that they needed a character with a white core and kaya was not eligible. Since the face character of a set is always mono colored does this guarrantee kaya will be black? Black is already behind with 6 monocolored character(getting its 6th in commander legends with tevesh) only tied with green(granted huatli hasn't gotten her green card) while blue and white have 8 and red has 9.
I remember maro saying when talking about the creation of basri that they needed a character with a white core and kaya was not eligible. Since the face character of a set is always mono colored does this guarrantee kaya will be black? Black is already behind with 6 monocolored character(getting its 6th in commander legends with tevesh) only tied with green(granted huatli hasn't gotten her green card) while blue and white have 8 and red has 9.
I don't think so, but its not like impossible. They really only have that big of issue for core sets (where they are trying to show off their divers cast of walkers or something like War of the Spark or the pw decks) and most of the main cast to this point had been mono-colored with the focus of the gatewatch. But we seen Bolas, Saheeli, Huatli, Teferi and such who where face and remained multicolored.
I mean as much as we are talking vorthos stuff, Kaya could be here since design needed a WB walker for balancing, and Sorin is slotted for Innistrad Crimson Vow, they didn't want make a new WB walker (as we are likely seeing a naive walker) and Kaya is a now a main character and a face of the franchise so she likely gonna be the default WB walker in the same way Jace, Chandra and Liliana are for U, R and B.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I remember maro saying when talking about the creation of basri that they needed a character with a white core and kaya was not eligible. Since the face character of a set is always mono colored does this guarrantee kaya will be black? Black is already behind with 6 monocolored character(getting its 6th in commander legends with tevesh) only tied with green(granted huatli hasn't gotten her green card) while blue and white have 8 and red has 9.
I don't think so, but its not like impossible. They really only have that big of issue for core sets (where they are trying to show off their divers cast of walkers or something like War of the Spark or the pw decks) and most of the main cast to this point had been mono-colored with the focus of the gatewatch. But we seen Bolas, Saheeli, Huatli, Teferi and such who where face and remained multicolored.
I mean as much as we are talking vorthos stuff, Kaya could be here since design needed a WB walker for balancing, and Sorin is slotted for Innistrad Crimson Vow, they didn't want make a new WB walker (as we are likely seeing a naive walker) and Kaya is a now a main character and a face of the franchise so she likely gonna be the default WB walker in the same way Jace, Chandra and Liliana are for U, R and B.
None of those characters were the face of a set. In ixalan it was jace, in kaladesh it was chandra in dominaria it was liliana if i remember correctly and bolas could never be since he was a villain.
I remember maro saying when talking about the creation of basri that they needed a character with a white core and kaya was not eligible. Since the face character of a set is always mono colored does this guarrantee kaya will be black? Black is already behind with 6 monocolored character(getting its 6th in commander legends with tevesh) only tied with green(granted huatli hasn't gotten her green card) while blue and white have 8 and red has 9.
I don't think so, but its not like impossible. They really only have that big of issue for core sets (where they are trying to show off their divers cast of walkers or something like War of the Spark or the pw decks) and most of the main cast to this point had been mono-colored with the focus of the gatewatch. But we seen Bolas, Saheeli, Huatli, Teferi and such who where face and remained multicolored.
I mean as much as we are talking vorthos stuff, Kaya could be here since design needed a WB walker for balancing, and Sorin is slotted for Innistrad Crimson Vow, they didn't want make a new WB walker (as we are likely seeing a naive walker) and Kaya is a now a main character and a face of the franchise so she likely gonna be the default WB walker in the same way Jace, Chandra and Liliana are for U, R and B.
None of those characters were the face of a set. In ixalan it was jace, in kaladesh it was chandra in dominaria it was liliana if i remember correctly and bolas could never be since he was a villain.
Ahhh I see, "face" of the set is different from the protagonist of the storyline. So yes Chandra was the main character for the Kaladesh story but for the marketing and set art (which we have here for Kaldheim showing Kaya) it was Saheeli for Kaladesh and Chandra for Aether Revolt. On that note, Vivien was featured heavily for Ikoria marketing but ended up a more "wandering loner" supporting character and the Ikoria novel was more about Lukka and Jirina.
Again Kaya might be here partially marketing as a one of the leads and might not be the leading character.
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"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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I hope the cards are good and the art is cool. I hope they go full viking stereotype with big helmets, horns, muscles, ships, valkyries and stuff like that.
There's still hope for some of that old school Conan heavy metal album style art with the recent Jared Carthalion, True Heir which I think would fit this perfectly.
Well,in that case why even bring your opinion into the matter if you don't see the point and think the discussion is unimportant? Instead it feels like you just want to push your own opinion (Magic story always equals *****) and then stop it right there to have the last word.
Believe it or not, some people here do care and like at least some aspects of the story and do want to talk about it. I also feel like "*****ty writing" and "Mary Sue" have both become snarl words thrown against any story/character that people dislike, no matter the actual quality of it all. Not saying that the storyline is always great, but seriously, confusing ones own subjective likes/dislikes with objective criticism is astoundingly common in this thread and often on this forum as a whole.
That aside, if Wizards has done one thing relatively right (with a few exceptions) then it is mixing the common stereotypes about ancient cultures with some more realistic and not well-known aspects to create their fantasy counterparts. I wouldn't worry about horns, ships, valkyries and definitely muscles to appear to fulfill your wildest viking stereotype dreams. Just probably mixed with some less well-known facts about them probably.
That's like your opinion, which is clearly not shared by many others here
If you are happy with Kaya going around in a norse block killing Valhallan spirits because "ghosts are bad!" good for you. But don't expect the same by people with a little better critical sense.
If it comes out that the big bad of Kaldheim is some kind of ghost it will still be *****ty because when you think of norse mythology you don't think of a BBEG ghost and because Kaya can kill it extremely easy. She just need the stab the ghost with a knife (not a mary sue at all, totally a well balanced and thought after power).
If you are so adamant at the thesis of racism and wanna expose us supposed bad racist mtg players, i suggest you to look at the announcements of Ikoria and M21. If the people triggered by Kaya were triggered also by Vivien and Teferi being the faces of those sets, you have found your racists. Otherwise, you just have found people who dislike Kaya because of the countless reasons that have been posted in this thread and that you are choosing to ignore.
okay but like... there were many years where it wasn't crap.
it turned into a self fulfilling prophecy. bad writers and players being turned off by it. they start saying it was *****ty and buy less. less resources into it making it *****tier. then the mending happened because we hit the peak of ***** mountain. (though some of ravnica was good) and now we're climbing right back up to the top to knock down that flag and put up another one.
the modern era is awful for storytelling and it really doesn't have to be. it doesn't help that it IS bad and so many players now just say whatever its ***** and it'll always be ***** so stop wasting time on it while minimal effort is really put into it. its a huge factor in what keeps the cards interesting too. for a lot of people its as much about the story conveyed through the cards as it is what the cards actually do.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
On that we agree.
One of the cool things that the packaging kinda hints at is the possibility of seeing again large scale conflict (armies) on a plane, which is nice in my opinion as the last set to really have any huge battles was War of the Spark, and Ikoria to an extent.
Ikoria's lore had big battles between two opposing assemblages, but as one of the sides was just mind-controlled monsters I'm unsure if it counts.
Then again, Bolas's army in War of the Spark was also majorly comprised of necor-dominated zombies so I guess Iokoria would qualify just as well.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Eh, I still stand by what I said. Arguing for four or five pages about pretty out there nothing theories is definitely not important and I regret reading through it hehe, but I don't think my opinion matters much anyway and so whatever if I throw it into the pile. Not meant to end a conversation or say "this is how it is!". It's obviously subjective, so don't worry if you disagree with me. It's alright.
I'm Danish and I know all that "But vikings didn't have horns!!" stuff. I don't care if it's unrealistic, it's fantasy stuff, go full 80's heavy metal album cover vikings. Don't take themselves too serious, just go all out with it. Make it a little different than the way the art direction has generally been. I think most people would think that was cool and not just be my personal "wildest viking sterotype dreams". Ridiculous lol.
I doubt they'll go that direction given the leaked figures and stuff we've seen so far. Probably be a lot of subversion of expectations lol. I'm still looking forward to seeing more revealed from the set though. I'm hyped for vikings and snow.
That's a lot of words you put in my mouth. But who am I to stop you from being mad at a straw man. The point is some people here are misusing the term Mary Sue and have not been consistent at all in their criticism. I get that you really don't like Kaya. Trust me, we can tell. But none of that makes her a Mary Sue or a bad character or whatever. Just the amount of vitriol directed at this one character and the inconsistency is just so incongruous.
Alright, in that case we can agree to disagree quite easily.
And you misunderstood me (granted, I should have left out the word stereotype in my last sentence): I meant that in a fully positive way! As I said, I think Wizards are doing a pretty good job at handling this kind of stuff and I would love me some great vikings and snow as well! This was not at all meant deregatory at all We are in total agreement there.
I don't know enough about Kaya as a character to chime in, but I definitely know enough about Mary Sues (male/female/other) to tell you that a Mary Sue is not by its definition flawless.
A Mary Sue is characterized by the fact that in-universe characters and storylines bend around that character to enhance the way they are perceived, which can show itself by being perfectly flawless and universally liked with only token dissent from characters to facilitate stories but can be more subtle.
A trait of a Mary Sue is that they appear/are inserted into the setting and instantly rival or even best established powerful characters in their respective field without proper setup e. g. a new character - only the most egregious examples then also need to be complimented and praised by everyone around.
Just the ability to repeatedly resolve long-standing plotlines established characters struggled with and coming out looking good in the narrative is a valid justification to consider the terms applicability.
That doesn't mean that a reader outside the narrative cannot recognize their flaws.
Since Mary Sue's originate from fan fiction and inexperienced writers these extreme examples are the ones most thought about, but let's call it a gradient scale.
Like for the term fascism there is no one hard definition, but a checklist of characteristic properties that, if observed, point you in the direction of using the term, e. g. wikipedia suggests: "They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them,[2] or they may upstage the protagonist of a fictional setting, such as by saving them. They may disregard previously established aspects of the fiction such as characterization and natural laws."
So for someone, who considers the Rat-situation a break of established rules (or in analogy to color pie discussions - a severe bend of the rules that moves the perception of where the rules lie in an unhealthy way), that may make them consider Kaya a Mary Sue (taken together with the fact that planeswalker marketing makes for a out-of-universe presentation accentuating their positive traits).
From the little I know about the Rat-situation e. g. it might just be as likely that Rat is the Mary Sue and Kaya is just the tool used to bend the rules for their benefit.
I want to emphasize again that Magic is a multimedia franchise and part of the problem is that planeswalkers (at least the main cast) as a whole may very well be argued to intentionally be created and positioned as wish-fulfillment characters and inherently would have traits of a Mary Sue by design, by their very purpose.
Although ninjas are experts of camouflage and concealment, they are actually horrible liars. This means that no matter where you are, you can shout out, “Are there any ninjas here?” and if there’s a ninja within earshot, he’ll be compelled to respond.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You cannot speak for all Vorthi Tiro. Vivian is disliked by a few Vorthi including myself, not because she is overpowered, but because she is extremist, and even this interpretation may very well just be associated with the initial depiction of her whilst on Ixalan. Vivian was a much more reasonable character in the Ikoria novel, which suggests to me at least that WotC took a hint.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Vivien was my favourite planeswalker before Ikoria (just a little info for anyone thinking that there is an agenda behind my hate for Kaya).
Vivien may look like a mary sue because she has too a super duper special power that help her out a lot. The difference is that her power isn't her but it's an item, if you take away her arkbow she's almost nothing (and she can't make another one. Not can anyone else); also she paid a high price for that power.
But after Ikoria i hate her too. Actually i don't hate her, i just find her the cringiest thing ever made. I could handle an eco-terrorist extremist... but you have to write it in a good and credible way. What she said about Ikoria looked like the rambling of a vegan emo teenager who never met another real person in his life. If you wanna advocate animal's rights, ok. If you wanna condemn killing animals even for eating, you may sound a little dumb related to some fantasy planes, but ok i guess. If you condemn people just fightning for their own survival, to not get eaten... that's beyond dumb. That's a level of not being a credible character that shouldn't even be possible.
Yeah, she's a lot more approachable in the Ikoria novel.
@Ilovesaprolings, I know for certain that you've been consistently proactive in the past at standing up against not only racism on this here site, but also sexism and LGBTQ2S+phobia, so TBH, I'm not really all that suspicious of your own criticisms of Kaya as I am suspicious of the critiques given by a few of the other users on here. That is of course not to say that such would be impossible, and I certainly ain't perfect in these kinda things either.
What I do know is that some of the critics and post-'likers' on our thread do indeed have a pattern of attacking WotC' efforts in making the game more inclusive, either in terms of gender, race, ethnicity, culture, sexuality or, in the case of some users, all of the above and/or more.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You guys just love misusing loaded buzzwords, don't you? First Mary Sue, then "CNN bad," now fake news. When a post is composed of marginally-related buzzwords why would anyone want to engage with that earnestly?
You’re welcome to say that but again the pattern is rather clear.
I don't think so, but its not like impossible. They really only have that big of issue for core sets (where they are trying to show off their divers cast of walkers or something like War of the Spark or the pw decks) and most of the main cast to this point had been mono-colored with the focus of the gatewatch. But we seen Bolas, Saheeli, Huatli, Teferi and such who where face and remained multicolored.
I mean as much as we are talking vorthos stuff, Kaya could be here since design needed a WB walker for balancing, and Sorin is slotted for Innistrad Crimson Vow, they didn't want make a new WB walker (as we are likely seeing a naive walker) and Kaya is a now a main character and a face of the franchise so she likely gonna be the default WB walker in the same way Jace, Chandra and Liliana are for U, R and B.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
None of those characters were the face of a set. In ixalan it was jace, in kaladesh it was chandra in dominaria it was liliana if i remember correctly and bolas could never be since he was a villain.
Ahhh I see, "face" of the set is different from the protagonist of the storyline. So yes Chandra was the main character for the Kaladesh story but for the marketing and set art (which we have here for Kaldheim showing Kaya) it was Saheeli for Kaladesh and Chandra for Aether Revolt. On that note, Vivien was featured heavily for Ikoria marketing but ended up a more "wandering loner" supporting character and the Ikoria novel was more about Lukka and Jirina.
Again Kaya might be here partially marketing as a one of the leads and might not be the leading character.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"