So do you have links / evidence? I'm equally happy to receive them via PM.
Statistics regarding BFZ being a commercial failure would surely qualify, if such a thing exists.
there are damn near countless articles out there pertaining as to why bfz was poorly received. it was even acknolwedged by maro in an article he wrote that they focused on the wrong aspects of zendikar for that set.
additionally, don't forget the block had expeditions. as i've said more and more frequently in recent months, a set can be a commercial success and still be a failure. sales data is not the be all metric for success.
I prefer literally any other metric than "two people who always complain about sets called another set bad."
Let's be very clear about the claim I'm asking to be substantiated here: without evidence or support, I keep seeing posters say something to the effect of "many / most / all Magic players agree that X is bad," where X can be any current or upcoming product release. Two people beating a dead horse on MTGS is not a majority of players; googling a handful (litany?) of articles making the same point does not reflect a majority opinion. If someone is going to flaunt market research in my face, I would expect something more tangible - like data showing how far below expectations a certain set sold for. If people genuinely don't like something, the numbers will reflect that.
So do you have links / evidence? I'm equally happy to receive them via PM.
Statistics regarding BFZ being a commercial failure would surely qualify, if such a thing exists.
What you're questioning is well known and readily available information. The idea that you've insulted a documented argument from a point of ignorance calls into question your own objectivity.
So do you have links / evidence? I'm equally happy to receive them via PM.
Statistics regarding BFZ being a commercial failure would surely qualify, if such a thing exists.
What you're questioning is well known and readily available information. The idea that you've insulted a documented argument from a point of ignorance calls into question your own objectivity.
In all honesty, I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. Can you re-phrase?
I found it baffling that BFZ acknowledged it had the wrong focus, and ZNR then took all those requested tropes and dumped them a second time, only to get Party instead. I think Party might be a good design for a set like Forgotten Realms, that focuses on characters gathering for a DND adventure. But Zendikar is supposed to be about the plane itself - the roil, its diverse landscapes and dangers - that's why it's "the Land set." When Allies and Eldrazi were the focus, BFZ performed poorly in market research. You'd think a second tribal focus wouldn't take the place of Quests, Traps, Expeditions, etc. but once again, they delivered Lorwyn/Shadowmoor light instead, which Ixalan already did better with its tribal components.
I prefer literally any other metric than "two people who always complain about sets called another set bad."
Let's be very clear about the claim I'm asking to be substantiated here: without evidence or support, I keep seeing posters say something to the effect of "many / most / all Magic players agree that X is bad," where X can be any current or upcoming product release. Two people beating a dead horse on MTGS is not a majority of players; googling a handful (litany?) of articles making the same point does not reflect a majority opinion. If someone is going to flaunt market research in my face, I would expect something more tangible - like data showing how far below expectations a certain set sold for. If people genuinely don't like something, the numbers will reflect that.
well that's great my guy, but you're ignoring available information at this point. it was a poorly received set. there is a tremendous amount out there proving it. like it or not.
lets be very clear here. what you're asking for is not available. wizards does not post sales data. this is also known. there are however articles published by many outlets, including maro himself, that talk about how poorly received the set was. they talk about how themes and expectations were subverted. they talk about how it missed the mark. you will not find the numerical data you seek, anywhere. the lack of that data does not prove you correct in your assumptions that this is no more than a few people's opinions because of the abundance of not only those articles but statements from members of the magic design community itself.
That would be awesome if the included hyper borealis as an in set mechanic.
I was thinking about the norse mythology and the 9 world aspect. Magic will probaly give it its own spin and go with 10. Now whether they go with 2colors or 3 colors is debatable. They could actually even go with 3 colors but instead of wedges/shards they could go with 2 colors and a hybrid of lets say 2mana/snow. That could be a version fittin the setting/enviroment which would give us something new. We shall see.
Regarding the planeswalkers kaya is a given and it was mentioned that there would be 4. I would think that ramaz would be the second and any 2 of the following 3, samut basri, calix(given they are from planes with gods) would bring us to 4.
That would be awesome if the included hyper borealis as an in set mechanic.
I was thinking about the norse mythology and the 9 world aspect. Magic will probaly give it its own spin and go with 10. Now whether they go with 2colors or 3 colors is debatable. They could actually even go with 3 colors but instead of wedges/shards they could go with 2 colors and a hybrid of lets say 2mana/snow. That could be a version fittin the setting/enviroment which would give us something new. We shall see.
Regarding the planeswalkers kaya is a given and it was mentioned that there would be 4. I would think that ramaz would be the second and any 2 of the following 3, samut basri, calix(given they are from planes with gods) would bring us to 4.
Who mentioned there would be 4 planeswalker? I didn't found that information. It is unusual 2-3. (5 in Core sets)
The last thing Kaya was doing was hunting Liliana with Teyo and Rat. If I am not mistaken they got the veil from Liliana and pretended that they killed her. Liliana changed her name to Ana and most likely Kaya, Rat and Teyo separated because the mission was done.
If Ramaz is in Kaldheim he could cover 3 colors. On the only appearance we have from him, he was playing a temur colored deck. Kaya would cover the remaining colors. This put the planeswalker count on 2. We have basically no information about Ramaz other than he was working for Bolas and that Chandra confront/found him in Kaldheim. We don't know if he is from Kaldheim. Chandra is the only character with Bolas that actually had contact with him. Ramaz could just be created for the Duels of the Planeswalkers game. There are no references on cards about him.
Calix would hunt Elspeth. I don't know what Samut and Basri are doing but I assume they have some agenda in Amonketh. They additionally share color with Kaya (all 3). I think Mark stated for the Theros set that doing 10 Gods or more in the same set was too difficult to do. A set contains about 15 mythic cards and 4 planeswalker + 10 gods would almost fill all the mythic slots. I am not saying that I don't believe it but it seems unlikely.
I noticed the Borealis in the art. Borealis is a natural phenomenon associated with colder regions of Earth.
Couldn't help but notice that it also naturally manifests in a variety of colors...
I wonder if Borealis could be some new kind of 'Snow Aura' or something? A brand new mechanic tied to Kaldheim like Energy to Kaladesh maybe?
I dunno. Just a random thought I had. I think that might be very cool thing to do in the set.
A good point but I wanted to point out that we have the Northern/Borealis and Southern/Australis lights because our Geomagnetic and Geographic poles are fairly close together. If a planet or even our Earth were to have the Geomagnetic poles at vastly different regions, say on the equator, then the Lights would occur in those areas. So its possible the lights could occur anywhere and could occur everywhere if that planet had a very strong solar wind coming from its Sun. Just a thought.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Between the popularity of the first Zendikar block, the mounting anticipation of a more coherent story, exceptional marketing, and the inclusion of the first and best Masterpieces, the commercial success of BFZ likely had very little to do with the set itself.
well that's great my guy, but you're ignoring available information at this point. it was a poorly received set. there is a tremendous amount out there proving it. like it or not.
lets be very clear here. what you're asking for is not available. wizards does not post sales data. this is also known. there are however articles published by many outlets, including maro himself, that talk about how poorly received the set was. they talk about how themes and expectations were subverted. they talk about how it missed the mark. you will not find the numerical data you seek, anywhere. the lack of that data does not prove you correct in your assumptions that this is no more than a few people's opinions because of the abundance of not only those articles but statements from members of the magic design community itself.
sorry dude.
What I'm asking for is something substantive to back up your claim, so if you're telling me that no such thing is available...
I'm not sure what you have to be sorry about, but that's very big of you. I accept your apology.
Between the popularity of the first Zendikar block, the mounting anticipation of a more coherent story, exceptional marketing, and the inclusion of the first and best Masterpieces, the commercial success of BFZ likely had very little to do with the set itself.
It must be convenient to ignore how spoiler season is a thing that exists. People know what they're getting into even before they buy packs, so ancillary marketing aside, if the cards we all knew about ahead of time were such crap, why did we all go out and buy them anyways? Why do people still go out and buy cards from sets that posters like Xcric preemptively declare 'a complete turd'?
The only reason I recall BFZ being underappreciated, in hindsight, was its lack of impact on the meta at the time. That has as much - or more - to do with the cards printed before and afterward as it does BFZ itself. Whatever BFZ's actual failures might have been, people here are projecting their own personal opinions and biases to try and explain how there's some overarching attempt by Wizards to sabotage what they think Zendikar is or should be - Zendikar Rising simply does not bear that out, and a two man echo chamber does not a majority make.
Between the popularity of the first Zendikar block, the mounting anticipation of a more coherent story, exceptional marketing, and the inclusion of the first and best Masterpieces, the commercial success of BFZ likely had very little to do with the set itself.
What's your evidence of that? I think it's much more likely that a lot of players liked BFZ despite what a loud minority of online naysayers claimed.
In fact, it was so poorly received that it is the best-selling set in Magic's history as of September 2019
Just because it is "best selling" doesn't mean that all those cards ended up in the hands of players. I would agree sales to vendors were probably at an all time high, but that is because they jacked up the print runs at the time as well to historic levels. Of course it is going to be "best selling" when they sell to distributors at hyper-printing numbers. Fallen Empires was a "best selling" set at the time because they printed it to the moon. As of this year you could still buy FE booster boxes on the cheap and packs at like 5 bucks each.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In fact, it was so poorly received that it is the best-selling set in Magic's history as of September 2019
Just because it is "best selling" doesn't mean that all those cards ended up in the hands of players. I would agree sales to vendors were probably at an all time high, but that is because they jacked up the print runs at the time as well to historic levels. Of course it is going to be "best selling" when they sell to distributors at hyper-printing numbers. Fallen Empires was a "best selling" set at the time because they printed it to the moon. As of this year you could still buy FE booster boxes on the cheap and packs at like 5 bucks each.
That's not unlike saying "we only have the highest covid numbers because we test so much." It doesn't matter how much something was printed if people didn't also buy it, and vendors buy / crack packs for a particular reason - to sell singles.
... your "it is bad because I do not like it" attitude.
I was going to say something to this effect, glad you beat me to it.
It is okay, I had to suffer this person in Storyline for years now. I do not post anymore much, but such outrageous posts make me to break the surface.
I'm not sure the usual suspects declaring yet another set to be 'garbage' qualifies as a preview season speaking to anything, apart from maybe some confirmation bias. As far as market research, do you have links to show how well BFZ has sold or not sold?
He has néthing. Making things up, as usual.
I only wait when he starts to use the favorite new toy of many current social media discussers "I do not have to prove what I say, you have to prove that what I say is not true"...
... your "it is bad because I do not like it" attitude.
I was going to say something to this effect, glad you beat me to it.
It is okay, I had to suffer this person in Storyline for years now. I do not post anymore much, but such outrageous posts make me to break the surface.
I'm not sure the usual suspects declaring yet another set to be 'garbage' qualifies as a preview season speaking to anything, apart from maybe some confirmation bias. As far as market research, do you have links to show how well BFZ has sold or not sold?
He has néthing. Making things up, as usual.
I only wait when he starts to use the favorite new toy of many current social media discussers "I do not have to prove what I say, you have to prove that what I say is not true"...
I sometimes teach middle school English. If a 13-year-old tried to justify an essay with that response I'd chuckle to myself, give him an F, and call his parents.
What actually worries me right now is the purported 'neutrality' the moderation staff here claims to uphold, and yet we have an example of a poster who was banned for 6 full months not too long ago, had multiple trolling infractions just days ago regarding bigoted statements, and yet still continues to be allowed to post here.
Between the popularity of the first Zendikar block, the mounting anticipation of a more coherent story, exceptional marketing, and the inclusion of the first and best Masterpieces, the commercial success of BFZ likely had very little to do with the set itself.
Exactly. Lots of confounding factors.
Apparently MaRo himself admitting the set was poorly received, and market research, are not valid enough sources.
So do you have links / evidence? I'm equally happy to receive them via PM.
Statistics regarding BFZ being a commercial failure would surely qualify, if such a thing exists.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
there are damn near countless articles out there pertaining as to why bfz was poorly received. it was even acknolwedged by maro in an article he wrote that they focused on the wrong aspects of zendikar for that set.
additionally, don't forget the block had expeditions. as i've said more and more frequently in recent months, a set can be a commercial success and still be a failure. sales data is not the be all metric for success.
but sure fine. here's maro's article: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/state-design-2016-2016-08-29
if you want more discussion on why/if bfz was poorly received just type it into google for a litany of articles
Let's be very clear about the claim I'm asking to be substantiated here: without evidence or support, I keep seeing posters say something to the effect of "many / most / all Magic players agree that X is bad," where X can be any current or upcoming product release. Two people beating a dead horse on MTGS is not a majority of players; googling a handful (litany?) of articles making the same point does not reflect a majority opinion. If someone is going to flaunt market research in my face, I would expect something more tangible - like data showing how far below expectations a certain set sold for. If people genuinely don't like something, the numbers will reflect that.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
In all honesty, I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. Can you re-phrase?
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
well that's great my guy, but you're ignoring available information at this point. it was a poorly received set. there is a tremendous amount out there proving it. like it or not.
lets be very clear here. what you're asking for is not available. wizards does not post sales data. this is also known. there are however articles published by many outlets, including maro himself, that talk about how poorly received the set was. they talk about how themes and expectations were subverted. they talk about how it missed the mark. you will not find the numerical data you seek, anywhere. the lack of that data does not prove you correct in your assumptions that this is no more than a few people's opinions because of the abundance of not only those articles but statements from members of the magic design community itself.
sorry dude.
Couldn't help but notice that it also naturally manifests in a variety of colors...
I wonder if Borealis could be some new kind of 'Snow Aura' or something? A brand new mechanic tied to Kaldheim like Energy to Kaladesh maybe?
I dunno. Just a random thought I had. I think that might be very cool thing to do in the set.
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I was thinking about the norse mythology and the 9 world aspect. Magic will probaly give it its own spin and go with 10. Now whether they go with 2colors or 3 colors is debatable. They could actually even go with 3 colors but instead of wedges/shards they could go with 2 colors and a hybrid of lets say 2mana/snow. That could be a version fittin the setting/enviroment which would give us something new. We shall see.
Regarding the planeswalkers kaya is a given and it was mentioned that there would be 4. I would think that ramaz would be the second and any 2 of the following 3, samut basri, calix(given they are from planes with gods) would bring us to 4.
Who mentioned there would be 4 planeswalker? I didn't found that information. It is unusual 2-3. (5 in Core sets)
I just found that Mark doesn't seem to know why Ramaz should be in Kaldheim -> https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/634959755875680256/hey-mark-what-are-the-odds-of-ramaz-finally#notes
The last thing Kaya was doing was hunting Liliana with Teyo and Rat. If I am not mistaken they got the veil from Liliana and pretended that they killed her. Liliana changed her name to Ana and most likely Kaya, Rat and Teyo separated because the mission was done.
If Ramaz is in Kaldheim he could cover 3 colors. On the only appearance we have from him, he was playing a temur colored deck. Kaya would cover the remaining colors. This put the planeswalker count on 2. We have basically no information about Ramaz other than he was working for Bolas and that Chandra confront/found him in Kaldheim. We don't know if he is from Kaldheim. Chandra is the only character with Bolas that actually had contact with him. Ramaz could just be created for the Duels of the Planeswalkers game. There are no references on cards about him.
Calix would hunt Elspeth. I don't know what Samut and Basri are doing but I assume they have some agenda in Amonketh. They additionally share color with Kaya (all 3). I think Mark stated for the Theros set that doing 10 Gods or more in the same set was too difficult to do. A set contains about 15 mythic cards and 4 planeswalker + 10 gods would almost fill all the mythic slots. I am not saying that I don't believe it but it seems unlikely.
A good point but I wanted to point out that we have the Northern/Borealis and Southern/Australis lights because our Geomagnetic and Geographic poles are fairly close together. If a planet or even our Earth were to have the Geomagnetic poles at vastly different regions, say on the equator, then the Lights would occur in those areas. So its possible the lights could occur anywhere and could occur everywhere if that planet had a very strong solar wind coming from its Sun. Just a thought.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In fact, it was so poorly received that it is the best-selling set in Magic's history as of September 2019: https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/187585089848/how-would-you-respond-to-the-polite-criticism-that
Between the popularity of the first Zendikar block, the mounting anticipation of a more coherent story, exceptional marketing, and the inclusion of the first and best Masterpieces, the commercial success of BFZ likely had very little to do with the set itself.
What I'm asking for is something substantive to back up your claim, so if you're telling me that no such thing is available...
I'm not sure what you have to be sorry about, but that's very big of you. I accept your apology.
It must be convenient to ignore how spoiler season is a thing that exists. People know what they're getting into even before they buy packs, so ancillary marketing aside, if the cards we all knew about ahead of time were such crap, why did we all go out and buy them anyways? Why do people still go out and buy cards from sets that posters like Xcric preemptively declare 'a complete turd'?
The only reason I recall BFZ being underappreciated, in hindsight, was its lack of impact on the meta at the time. That has as much - or more - to do with the cards printed before and afterward as it does BFZ itself. Whatever BFZ's actual failures might have been, people here are projecting their own personal opinions and biases to try and explain how there's some overarching attempt by Wizards to sabotage what they think Zendikar is or should be - Zendikar Rising simply does not bear that out, and a two man echo chamber does not a majority make.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
What's your evidence of that? I think it's much more likely that a lot of players liked BFZ despite what a loud minority of online naysayers claimed.
Just because it is "best selling" doesn't mean that all those cards ended up in the hands of players. I would agree sales to vendors were probably at an all time high, but that is because they jacked up the print runs at the time as well to historic levels. Of course it is going to be "best selling" when they sell to distributors at hyper-printing numbers. Fallen Empires was a "best selling" set at the time because they printed it to the moon. As of this year you could still buy FE booster boxes on the cheap and packs at like 5 bucks each.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
That's not unlike saying "we only have the highest covid numbers because we test so much." It doesn't matter how much something was printed if people didn't also buy it, and vendors buy / crack packs for a particular reason - to sell singles.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
We care enough to post, and we're not nobody.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
It is okay, I had to suffer this person in Storyline for years now. I do not post anymore much, but such outrageous posts make me to break the surface.
He has néthing. Making things up, as usual.
I only wait when he starts to use the favorite new toy of many current social media discussers "I do not have to prove what I say, you have to prove that what I say is not true"...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I sometimes teach middle school English. If a 13-year-old tried to justify an essay with that response I'd chuckle to myself, give him an F, and call his parents.
What actually worries me right now is the purported 'neutrality' the moderation staff here claims to uphold, and yet we have an example of a poster who was banned for 6 full months not too long ago, had multiple trolling infractions just days ago regarding bigoted statements, and yet still continues to be allowed to post here.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Apparently MaRo himself admitting the set was poorly received, and market research, are not valid enough sources.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||