So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
The current trajectory has been steadily downward since those two powerhouse removal cards we just discussed, otherwise there'd be more of them to talk about. These past two sets may prove to be a watershed moment for other parts of white's identity, but only the future will bear that out, not your say-so.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
If this was about competitive EDH (a contradiction in terms so far as I'm concerned, but to each their own) this whole time, you could have let on several posts ago. That would have strengthened your position better than any number of snarky personal attacks.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
Actually, you brought up standard first after I mentioned white weenie decks. Really though? You don't see how the best decks might also have the best cards in them, that's a correlation that didn't occur to you?
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
This style of rhetoric isn't doing you any favors, friend.
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything.
Not that the personal judgments I render should mean anything to a given player, but I don't think highly of people who need Serra Ascendant on turn 1 to win, or feel good about doing it. Sort of contrary to the entire point of EDH, but I digress. You're misrepresenting my point here: I didn't say "mana costs don't matter," I said the curve is shifted up, which would imply both that the sweet spot for MV is consequently higher and that lower MV is also somewhat trivialized. Not a hard and fast rule, and there are obvious exceptions, but nothing that contradicts my broader assertion. Most people spend their early turns dropping mana rocks or ramping, not plotting their masterstroke with Savannah Lions or Clergy of the Holy Nimbus. If you're still mystified as to why I chose standard instead of, say, EDH to disprove your statement about white having the best 1 or 2 drops, it's precisely because EDH is the format where those sort of drops matter the least.
I notice that you didn't say I was wrong about black sweepers this time. Progress!
If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
Again, not what I said but I'll humor you: because it kills indestructible creatures in a format where gods and the like are fairly prevalent. EDH tends to be a playground for cards that cost life instead of mana because your starting total is conspicuously higher (and easier to get back), not always necessarily because the card itself is cheap.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
There's quite a lot you can do with 9 mana in just about every color except... white. What are you doing to win the game with 9 mana in white?!
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'm not asking for favors.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
You said, verbatim, that white has the most efficient removal in response to a discussion about what white's core identity is or should be. If you only meant sweepers, then you could afford to be much clearer in your communication.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Sure. At no point was anyone here suggesting that the median curve for a discussion about white's power level in EDH, of all places, be 9. There's still a place for 9 mana spells somewhere in that gap, but I'm curious to know how we settled on MV9 as a point of comparison when the black sweepers I listed mostly range between 3 and 7 mana, almost identical to the ones you listed for white.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'd settle for you supporting your arguments with evidence. Anything besides more logical fallacies and unwarranted condescension, frankly.
I'm not asking for favors.
No, you're asking for mod text.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
I... did you just imply that you're a child? I'd be more careful about how you choose your words, amigo.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Apart from perhaps certain iconic mana rocks, EDH isn't really defined by its 1 or 2 drops, and certainly not the white ones.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Pretty sure there's a reason why it's never been replicated, at least not with text that functions the same way. As we pretty well established with PtE and StP, one or two strong cards are an outlier, and not representative of the color as a whole.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Terminus is a good card, but not without its faults (you have to draw into it naturally on a turn it actually matters). Again, one strong white card isn't enough to cast all the black ones I listed in an inferior light.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
I said win the game, not dawdle for a turn and hope your opponents don't conjure an answer. Why would you draw a distinction between "cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas" and then list a whole bunch of clunky cards that are easily outclassed by pretty much anything in any other color? That seems counterproductive.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
Oh, the irony. If you had to know a person to attack them I suspect the internet would be a much friendlier place. I don't have to actually feel insulted or attacked for it to be obvious that you are insulting or attacking me; by the same token, how what you say or do is perceived is just as important as how you meant it (or thought you meant it). That's basic communication. Now, do I actually feel insulted? Absolutely not - there's no "thin skin" to be had after 6 years in the airborne infantry. I asked you to stop out of politeness, because I'm not the one who is going to suffer in the long run.
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
You said, verbatim, that white has the most efficient removal in response to a discussion about what white's core identity is or should be. If you only meant sweepers, then you could afford to be much clearer in your communication.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Sure. At no point was anyone here suggesting that the median curve for a discussion about white's power level in EDH, of all places, be 9. There's still a place for 9 mana spells somewhere in that gap, but I'm curious to know how we settled on MV9 as a point of comparison when the black sweepers I listed mostly range between 3 and 7 mana, almost identical to the ones you listed for white.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'd settle for you supporting your arguments with evidence. Anything besides more logical fallacies and unwarranted condescension, frankly.
I'm not asking for favors.
No, you're asking for mod text.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
I... did you just imply that you're a child? I'd be more careful about how you choose your words, amigo.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Apart from perhaps certain iconic mana rocks, EDH isn't really defined by its 1 or 2 drops, and certainly not the white ones.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Pretty sure there's a reason why it's never been replicated, at least not with text that functions the same way. As we pretty well established with PtE and StP, one or two strong cards are an outlier, and not representative of the color as a whole.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Terminus is a good card, but not without its faults (you have to draw into it naturally on a turn it actually matters). Again, one strong white card isn't enough to cast all the black ones I listed in an inferior light.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
I said win the game, not dawdle for a turn and hope your opponents don't conjure an answer. Why would you draw a distinction between "cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas" and then list a whole bunch of clunky cards that are easily outclassed by pretty much anything in any other color? That seems counterproductive.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
Oh, the irony. If you had to know a person to attack them I suspect the internet would be a much friendlier place. I don't have to actually feel insulted or attacked for it to be obvious that you are insulting or attacking me; by the same token, how what you say or do is perceived is just as important as how you meant it (or thought you meant it). That's basic communication. Now, do I actually feel insulted? Absolutely not - there's no "thin skin" to be had after 6 years in the airborne infantry. I asked you to stop out of politeness, because I'm not the one who is going to suffer in the long run.
Cheers m8.
White does have the most efficient point removal. Black catching up, as it is supposed to be the number 1 in it, is the point.
Cool, so you recognize what cards cost what mana. You're on your way to being a Magic player. You still haven't listed board wipes that are actually better than their white counterparts.
Sure, what standard of evidence do you need to prove that unrelated things are unrelated? Mirriam-Webster might help.
Oh no, mod text. Someone help.
Am I am implying that I'm a child by suggesting that you find an adult to read to you? Seriously? If you have to fall back on semantics to the point that you cannot even read, why bother?
Commander's best cards are all 2 mana and less, not even including lands. Mana rocks, mana dorks, point removal, counterspells, graveyard hate, rituals, draw spells, etc. Have you played the format?
Hmmm, so it's an overpowered white card and you don't like the way it plays. Finally, progress.
Hey, you acknowledged a single white board wipe. Nice.
Which of the cards listed dawdles for a turn? They're pretty much all game winners the turn they drop.
No, you really can't. Nobody is attacking you. I'm being condescending towards the things you are saying here, and the way you are saying them, 100%. If you feel that you are defined by these things, and choose to perceive my dismissive attitude towards it as an attack upon you, that's your choice.
Hmmm, acknowledging that how I am perceived is as important as what I intend, but the same does not apply to you? Interesting.
Lol I could care less about the 6 years you spent on welfare learning how to kill babies. Military types are the most fragile egos I have ever encountered in my life. It isn't so much a badge of honor as much as it says you weren't good enough for the private sector at 18, and not good enough for career military at 24. It's pretty much the easiest 6 year career anyone can sign up for. Not really sure how your professional crayon tasting degree is all that relevant anyways.
Lol imagine thinking that there is literally anything I will suffer if I don't stop. Oh no, an ineffectual mod will PM me some red text that I'll ignore
Public Mod Note
(boombox_smk):
Being dismissive of mods and openly flaunting a disregard for moderation will only serve to further prove your fault.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
Patently false because of people's poor short term memories is pretty funny. Please, go on more about how three people on a tiny forum can't remember the last 3 years.
Wait, so when you criticize White's point removal, you mention it only gets it in nonstandard formats, but the only better board wipes you mention are also outside of Standard? Weird dichotomy there.
Path to Exile isn't in Standard or Historic. It's legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander. Swords only misses that list by 1 format. They aren't that limited in legality.
White weenie is currently a top tier build in standard. Not much of a memory if it can't remember things currently occurring. White almost always has multiple 2/1 for 1s with upside in standard, and many see play in other formats as well. In addition, it gets things like Mother of Runes in the 1 slot.
It seems the issue has less to do with white's flaws and more to do with your analytical skills.
This unfortunately doesn't have much to do with the original argument being made. No one is saying white doesn't have good cards in a variety of situations, it certainly does, but the argument was spot removal and efficient soup creatures. Yes, it has board wipes, and it's usually the color to have that in Standard, but outside of that the board wipes are, for the most part, pretty interchangeable with all colors having their own in some way. From Decree of Pain to Ezuri's Predation/The Great Aurora to Blasphemous Act.
When it comes to spot removal while you indeed listed a great one in Skyclave Apparition white's single target removal has been lacking and been left behind by black and blue (from Go For the Throat to Rapid Hybridization), and even green when it came to Beast Within (so much that white stole the card with Generous Gift, ignoring the color pie break of BW) and even Ram Through.
You said folks were "ignoring history" when it came to white, but when you can only come up with a couple examples of good single target removal in white in recent years it in fact shows people were looking at history appropriately. Board wipes are about the only thing white still has, Doomskar being one of the better ones in recent history for how it can escape discard and played early, but you must remember that black also has had a three mana board wipe with Bontu's Last Reckoning. White's board wipes are a constant in Magic, but they are not always the best, and the same is true for the other colors.
When it comes to keyword soup creatures they are great in Commander, but more often than not they are far less impressive than green's soup creatures.
Why in the hell would anyone try to argue that White hasn’t been left behind? I guess some people on the internet just need to be argumentative contrarians.
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
In Commander, the relevant format here, White is the worst color. You have to work twice as hard to make White keep up with the other colors. Acting like that isn’t true is what makes you a contrarian. And you accusing other people of having personality disorders is like the pot calling the kettle black.
Public Mod Note
(boombox_smk):
Do not counter insults with more insults. Report and move on.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
Why in the hell would anyone try to argue that White hasn’t been left behind? I guess some people on the internet just need to be argumentative contrarians.
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
In Commander, the relevant format here, White is the worst color. You have to work twice as hard to make White keep up with the other colors. Acting like that isn’t true is what makes you a contrarian. And you accusing other people of having personality disorders is like the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm on this forum, so not sure how I excluded myself from that.
It's not twice as hard. That's the whole point. It is maybe 10% harder, if that.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
And still is true my statement, some mass removals are more asymmetrical than others. a Decree of Pain or in Garruk Wake's can do much more advantage and even straight win you the game in the good situation, a simple wrath will simply reset the board most of the time. As I said, you are wrong when you say that black mass removals are both "inefficent and worse" because only one of the 2 is actually true.
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
And still is true my statement, some mass removals are more asymmetrical than others. a Decree of Pain or in Garruk Wake's can do much more advantage and even straight win you the game in the good situation, a simple wrath will simply reset the board most of the time. As I said, you are wrong when you say that black mass removals are both "inefficent and worse" because only one of the 2 is actually true.
You know, in my play group, we wouldn't bother playing wrath, doomskar or other basic wrath effects. First of all - if it doesn't exile, or put on the bottom of the library, between indestructible and graveyard shenanigans, those removals accomplish very little except perhaps adding a turn or two to the game. Inevitably, someone is set to recover better than the other people based on equipment/enchantments/etc, so you are only changing who is going to win the game amongst your 3 opponents, and not actually improving your own lot at all. We pretty much only play modal (merciless eviction/crux of fate/austere command) or purely lopsided wrath effects (ruinous ultimatum, in garruk's wake, slaughter the strong, tragic arrogance or single combat in certain one critter combo decks), occasionally we may see an odd fumigate or the aforementioned terminus. We tend to run a lot more enchant removal/artifact removal (fracturing gust, bane of progress, shatterstorm, even some form or another of tranquility) and tend to leave the creature removal to single target - problem solving removal. Too many commanders are almost single card combos and by the time you can cast a sorcery to deal with them, it is too late.
Isn't the issue of white's performance in Commander something that WotC employees themselves have acknowledged?
All that was asserted is that white's removal, while still playable, has had the gap in power over the options available in other colors steadily narrow over time while those other colors have also maintained strong advantages in other areas. Black is supposed to have the most efficient spot removal, yes (for creatures); white's spot removal is generally the most versatile. But that versatility counts for less these days since removal options for the other colors have expanded considerably (which also encroaches on black, btw). White's 1 and 2 drops might be slightly more efficient than the ones available in red, but not enough to offset that red also has access to burn and other tools. And its larger drops get outclassed by green, a color with absurd amounts of card advantage and mana resources. This doesn't have to be some hyperbolic crisis to nevertheless be a balance issue. The value of what white has to offer is overall less than any one other color, particularly in the Commander format. It needs to excel in more areas instead of being across the board second or third best. Right now, it has a slight edge on certain kinds of board wipes, but that's not enough for an entire color. It's the most defensive color, so inherently what it most critically needs are ways to win and get ahead in the game, which is where it struggles. And it's not at all an easy problem to solve or, apparently, even discuss with any clarity.
WotC has been working on it but adjustment to the color pie is typically quite conservative. Cards like Skyclave Apparition or Sigrid, God Favored show some promise through their combination of threat and answer, which I think is one part of a good direction to take the color in. And expanding white's access to scry, which is what got this whole dumpster fire of a discussion going in the first place, makes complete sense since white it's supposed to be the color of planning ahead per MaRo. But what white still needs is to be casting more spells than it currently does. Still, after seeing how they reinvented red these past few years, I'm hopeful for the progress white will make (then we can start talking about black).
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
And still is true my statement, some mass removals are more asymmetrical than others. a Decree of Pain or in Garruk Wake's can do much more advantage and even straight win you the game in the good situation, a simple wrath will simply reset the board most of the time. As I said, you are wrong when you say that black mass removals are both "inefficent and worse" because only one of the 2 is actually true.
You know, in my play group, we wouldn't bother playing wrath, doomskar or other basic wrath effects. First of all - if it doesn't exile, or put on the bottom of the library, between indestructible and graveyard shenanigans, those removals accomplish very little except perhaps adding a turn or two to the game. Inevitably, someone is set to recover better than the other people based on equipment/enchantments/etc, so you are only changing who is going to win the game amongst your 3 opponents, and not actually improving your own lot at all. We pretty much only play modal (merciless eviction/crux of fate/austere command) or purely lopsided wrath effects (ruinous ultimatum, in garruk's wake, slaughter the strong, tragic arrogance or single combat in certain one critter combo decks), occasionally we may see an odd fumigate or the aforementioned terminus. We tend to run a lot more enchant removal/artifact removal (fracturing gust, bane of progress, shatterstorm, even some form or another of tranquility) and tend to leave the creature removal to single target - problem solving removal. Too many commanders are almost single card combos and by the time you can cast a sorcery to deal with them, it is too late.
My playgroup is very similar in that regard though ive never thought about it until reading your post. I feel its a natural progression of any playgroup, or even a deck over time, to favor those sorts of answers over generic board wipes for exactly what youve described. I also feel most arent actively aware of that shift as they move board wipes out of their decks or spot removal in.
You know, in my play group, we wouldn't bother playing wrath, doomskar or other basic wrath effects.
--- I'll stop you right here. As you admit, that is your meta, but your meta is not equal to what is a card potential in a vacuum and how can be used in other EDH playgroups worldwide. My personal experience contradicts yours for example. And that confirm what I'm saying : that whoever says that black mass removals are always useless, it's only because have a limited game experience playing with the same cards and against the same people and judging a card in base of that bias.
I wonder if the other white precon will spawn another sterile discussion like this one
Public Mod Note
(boombox_smk):
Instead of posting something like this, post comments about the thread topic, and try to help it get back on track.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'm not asking for favors.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
You said, verbatim, that white has the most efficient removal in response to a discussion about what white's core identity is or should be. If you only meant sweepers, then you could afford to be much clearer in your communication.
Sure. At no point was anyone here suggesting that the median curve for a discussion about white's power level in EDH, of all places, be 9. There's still a place for 9 mana spells somewhere in that gap, but I'm curious to know how we settled on MV9 as a point of comparison when the black sweepers I listed mostly range between 3 and 7 mana, almost identical to the ones you listed for white.
I'd settle for you supporting your arguments with evidence. Anything besides more logical fallacies and unwarranted condescension, frankly.
No, you're asking for mod text.
I... did you just imply that you're a child? I'd be more careful about how you choose your words, amigo.
Apart from perhaps certain iconic mana rocks, EDH isn't really defined by its 1 or 2 drops, and certainly not the white ones.
Pretty sure there's a reason why it's never been replicated, at least not with text that functions the same way. As we pretty well established with PtE and StP, one or two strong cards are an outlier, and not representative of the color as a whole.
Terminus is a good card, but not without its faults (you have to draw into it naturally on a turn it actually matters). Again, one strong white card isn't enough to cast all the black ones I listed in an inferior light.
I said win the game, not dawdle for a turn and hope your opponents don't conjure an answer. Why would you draw a distinction between "cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas" and then list a whole bunch of clunky cards that are easily outclassed by pretty much anything in any other color? That seems counterproductive.
Oh, the irony. If you had to know a person to attack them I suspect the internet would be a much friendlier place. I don't have to actually feel insulted or attacked for it to be obvious that you are insulting or attacking me; by the same token, how what you say or do is perceived is just as important as how you meant it (or thought you meant it). That's basic communication. Now, do I actually feel insulted? Absolutely not - there's no "thin skin" to be had after 6 years in the airborne infantry. I asked you to stop out of politeness, because I'm not the one who is going to suffer in the long run.
Cheers m8.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
White does have the most efficient point removal. Black catching up, as it is supposed to be the number 1 in it, is the point.
Cool, so you recognize what cards cost what mana. You're on your way to being a Magic player. You still haven't listed board wipes that are actually better than their white counterparts.
Sure, what standard of evidence do you need to prove that unrelated things are unrelated? Mirriam-Webster might help.
Oh no, mod text. Someone help.
Am I am implying that I'm a child by suggesting that you find an adult to read to you? Seriously? If you have to fall back on semantics to the point that you cannot even read, why bother?
Commander's best cards are all 2 mana and less, not even including lands. Mana rocks, mana dorks, point removal, counterspells, graveyard hate, rituals, draw spells, etc. Have you played the format?
Hmmm, so it's an overpowered white card and you don't like the way it plays. Finally, progress.
Hey, you acknowledged a single white board wipe. Nice.
Which of the cards listed dawdles for a turn? They're pretty much all game winners the turn they drop.
No, you really can't. Nobody is attacking you. I'm being condescending towards the things you are saying here, and the way you are saying them, 100%. If you feel that you are defined by these things, and choose to perceive my dismissive attitude towards it as an attack upon you, that's your choice.
Hmmm, acknowledging that how I am perceived is as important as what I intend, but the same does not apply to you? Interesting.
Lol I could care less about the 6 years you spent on welfare learning how to kill babies. Military types are the most fragile egos I have ever encountered in my life. It isn't so much a badge of honor as much as it says you weren't good enough for the private sector at 18, and not good enough for career military at 24. It's pretty much the easiest 6 year career anyone can sign up for. Not really sure how your professional crayon tasting degree is all that relevant anyways.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
You mean Sol Ring?
This unfortunately doesn't have much to do with the original argument being made. No one is saying white doesn't have good cards in a variety of situations, it certainly does, but the argument was spot removal and efficient soup creatures. Yes, it has board wipes, and it's usually the color to have that in Standard, but outside of that the board wipes are, for the most part, pretty interchangeable with all colors having their own in some way. From Decree of Pain to Ezuri's Predation/The Great Aurora to Blasphemous Act.
When it comes to spot removal while you indeed listed a great one in Skyclave Apparition white's single target removal has been lacking and been left behind by black and blue (from Go For the Throat to Rapid Hybridization), and even green when it came to Beast Within (so much that white stole the card with Generous Gift, ignoring the color pie break of BW) and even Ram Through.
You said folks were "ignoring history" when it came to white, but when you can only come up with a couple examples of good single target removal in white in recent years it in fact shows people were looking at history appropriately. Board wipes are about the only thing white still has, Doomskar being one of the better ones in recent history for how it can escape discard and played early, but you must remember that black also has had a three mana board wipe with Bontu's Last Reckoning. White's board wipes are a constant in Magic, but they are not always the best, and the same is true for the other colors.
When it comes to keyword soup creatures they are great in Commander, but more often than not they are far less impressive than green's soup creatures.
In Commander, the relevant format here, White is the worst color. You have to work twice as hard to make White keep up with the other colors. Acting like that isn’t true is what makes you a contrarian. And you accusing other people of having personality disorders is like the pot calling the kettle black.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
I'm on this forum, so not sure how I excluded myself from that.
It's not twice as hard. That's the whole point. It is maybe 10% harder, if that.
And still is true my statement, some mass removals are more asymmetrical than others. a Decree of Pain or in Garruk Wake's can do much more advantage and even straight win you the game in the good situation, a simple wrath will simply reset the board most of the time. As I said, you are wrong when you say that black mass removals are both "inefficent and worse" because only one of the 2 is actually true.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
Nope. Only for control and combo decks "all removals are asymmetrical". Many removals are definitely more asymmetrical than others, and black is king on this. You clearly confirm that your knowledge about commander games and strategies is quite limited and you are basing all your argument on that bias.
All mass removal is asymmetrical because you choose when you play it. Not a difficult concept really.
You know, in my play group, we wouldn't bother playing wrath, doomskar or other basic wrath effects. First of all - if it doesn't exile, or put on the bottom of the library, between indestructible and graveyard shenanigans, those removals accomplish very little except perhaps adding a turn or two to the game. Inevitably, someone is set to recover better than the other people based on equipment/enchantments/etc, so you are only changing who is going to win the game amongst your 3 opponents, and not actually improving your own lot at all. We pretty much only play modal (merciless eviction/crux of fate/austere command) or purely lopsided wrath effects (ruinous ultimatum, in garruk's wake, slaughter the strong, tragic arrogance or single combat in certain one critter combo decks), occasionally we may see an odd fumigate or the aforementioned terminus. We tend to run a lot more enchant removal/artifact removal (fracturing gust, bane of progress, shatterstorm, even some form or another of tranquility) and tend to leave the creature removal to single target - problem solving removal. Too many commanders are almost single card combos and by the time you can cast a sorcery to deal with them, it is too late.
All that was asserted is that white's removal, while still playable, has had the gap in power over the options available in other colors steadily narrow over time while those other colors have also maintained strong advantages in other areas. Black is supposed to have the most efficient spot removal, yes (for creatures); white's spot removal is generally the most versatile. But that versatility counts for less these days since removal options for the other colors have expanded considerably (which also encroaches on black, btw). White's 1 and 2 drops might be slightly more efficient than the ones available in red, but not enough to offset that red also has access to burn and other tools. And its larger drops get outclassed by green, a color with absurd amounts of card advantage and mana resources. This doesn't have to be some hyperbolic crisis to nevertheless be a balance issue. The value of what white has to offer is overall less than any one other color, particularly in the Commander format. It needs to excel in more areas instead of being across the board second or third best. Right now, it has a slight edge on certain kinds of board wipes, but that's not enough for an entire color. It's the most defensive color, so inherently what it most critically needs are ways to win and get ahead in the game, which is where it struggles. And it's not at all an easy problem to solve or, apparently, even discuss with any clarity.
WotC has been working on it but adjustment to the color pie is typically quite conservative. Cards like Skyclave Apparition or Sigrid, God Favored show some promise through their combination of threat and answer, which I think is one part of a good direction to take the color in. And expanding white's access to scry, which is what got this whole dumpster fire of a discussion going in the first place, makes complete sense since white it's supposed to be the color of planning ahead per MaRo. But what white still needs is to be casting more spells than it currently does. Still, after seeing how they reinvented red these past few years, I'm hopeful for the progress white will make (then we can start talking about black).
My playgroup is very similar in that regard though ive never thought about it until reading your post. I feel its a natural progression of any playgroup, or even a deck over time, to favor those sorts of answers over generic board wipes for exactly what youve described. I also feel most arent actively aware of that shift as they move board wipes out of their decks or spot removal in.
--- I'll stop you right here. As you admit, that is your meta, but your meta is not equal to what is a card potential in a vacuum and how can be used in other EDH playgroups worldwide. My personal experience contradicts yours for example. And that confirm what I'm saying : that whoever says that black mass removals are always useless, it's only because have a limited game experience playing with the same cards and against the same people and judging a card in base of that bias.
lol can't say "you people" anymore?
This forum gets more and more silly by the thread. I need to stop wasting my life.
PREACH. World's biggest wind factory....quite depressing what it's turned into. It just keeps getting worse.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
That Dragon reprint yay! now I will have one for 'Whoops, no Friends!'
Same couple of people every time.
Same couple of people responding to the same maladaptive, antagonistic attitudes from members both new and entrenched. I applaud them.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Same couple of people every time that need to complain that people are talking about Magic on a Magic forum. Conversations? What's that?