I just received a survey from wizards about secret lairs and they are considering a subscription and/or membership model.
Salient points:
The subscription would basically be an auto purchase of each secret lair or bundle at time of release with immediate or at least first priority shipment. Was vague about whether you could effectively opt out of ones you didn't want without cancelling the subscription.
The membership would be an annual fee (149 or 99 depending on perks) that offered thins like early access to purchase drops, automatic free shipping, a 10% discount (on the 149 option), exclusive drops, merch, etc.
Also asked about interest in an app for drop alerts and purchasing.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The thing that stood out for me is the 4 exclusive secret lairs for members, that would make the FOMO big for many people.
I don't live in the US, and I have bought 2 secret lairs so far, one the first one I got help from a friend who brought me the goods from the US, the second I got was secretversary, I spent 100 on shipping of two non foil bundles. I am not a store but my intention was to sell 5 drops and keep 3 that I really wanted and come out without loosing money. I sold 5 and covered all my expenses, the 3 I kept were basically free. So now I am considering to dedicate my self to importing secret lairs to my country and make some bucks so maybe this subscription offers something interesting, but it will depend a lot on the secret lairs, so far I think I have good "eye" to choose the most desirable ones, but if they flood the market it is going to be more difficult.
I’m still confused as to how people believe FOMO is a thing that exists with an extensive secondary market. Besides, with these types of subscription models you can usually buy in after they announce something you like or want; you don’t have to subscribe blindly in the off chance something you’d be interested in drops later in the year.
Whether you like it or not, vote with your wallets.
For people who do not believe in secret lairs, I would still advise that people who receive the e-mail fill them out.
People bought a lot of the initial secret lairs so we're getting a lot of secret lairs.
People bought a lot of Secret Lair: The Walking Dead and now we have Universes Beyond.
This is an opportunity to directly tell wizards that you would not purchase a Secret Lair subscription/membership program. If the only people who complete this survey are the people who REALLY like secret lairs and you just ignore it, you are going to live in a world where the best value reprints of the year end up being locked behind a $250 FOMO gate.
A good number of Secret Lairs are not even worth buying, why would I ever want a subscription so I can get a playset of Lightning Bolt, mana rocks, basic lands, etc? Secret Lairs are already a niche product and with a subscription they are going even more niche with this.
I’m still confused as to how people believe FOMO is a thing that exists with an extensive secondary market. Besides, with these types of subscription models you can usually buy in after they announce something you like or want; you don’t have to subscribe blindly in the off chance something you’d be interested in drops later in the year.
Whether you like it or not, vote with your wallets.
I think the FOMO here is less about "I won't be able to get it" and more "If I change my mind later and want it, how much more money will I have to spend."
As someone trying to backfill some Pokémon games I missed, I really wish I'd gotten some games earlier, for example.
I’m still confused as to how people believe FOMO is a thing that exists with an extensive secondary market. Besides, with these types of subscription models you can usually buy in after they announce something you like or want; you don’t have to subscribe blindly in the off chance something you’d be interested in drops later in the year.
Whether you like it or not, vote with your wallets.
I think the FOMO here is less about "I won't be able to get it" and more "If I change my mind later and want it, how much more money will I have to spend."
As someone trying to backfill some Pokémon games I missed, I really wish I'd gotten some games earlier, for example.
Fair point, but I think it's a bit different with a limited run product, versus something they have a full print run of. Plus there's the whole "any normal card has a chance to be reprinted" but there's even less guarantee we'll ever see these variants ever again.
Every product is limited run. Standard sets rotate out and, depending on demand, spike in price. Even the commander precons often double in value after only 1 or 2 years. People feel the same thing over not being able to buy Urza's Sage singles as they do over the supposed FOMO of SL; "how dare you not print what I want, Wizards, at an affordable price."
Every product is limited run. Standard sets rotate out and, depending on demand, spike in price. Even the commander precons often double in value after only 1 or 2 years. People feel the same thing over not being able to buy Urza's Sage singles as they do over the supposed FOMO of SL; "how dare you not print what I want, Wizards, at an affordable price."
The scale is a bit different though and that, unfortunately, matters. Something that gets printed for a year straight in multiple languages, in stores everywhere, with a chance to be reprinted any time that world is revisited or a new set comes out, has a significantly larger pool than a set printed to demand, with that demand only noted during a week or weekend, only in English, and only shipped to one part of the world.
It's akin to the Reserved List. We don't know for sure yet that it is, because they haven't really said one way or the other if any of this will be reprinted, but the smaller the quantity of available cards, the quicker and easier it is to get priced out down the line.
And I totally get that there are a lot of Magic players who complain about Wizards not printing to their specific needs or price range, and it can get massively annoying, but that's them literally talking about how they missed out, even on the secondary market.
It's the same reason LGS's will buy up singles that seem like they'll be of value from pre-releases (or at least did, I haven't been to any in a while, for uh, obvious reasons.)
did I understand that correctly: you pay $99 annually so you automatically buy each secret lair for full price, or $149 to automatically buy them at a 10% discount? How does that make any sense?
A subscription model that entitles me to pay for the thing I probably don't want twice, while having no option to pass on one you don't want without forfeiting the entire subscription without refund for remaining time? Yea.... sod that idea.
The movement of this into 'live services' mindsets of subscription models and loot boxes, that offer nothing tangible except the 'ability' to spend money buying the same thing as everyone else, are nothing more than means to financially exploit insecure people and I strongly suggest against endorsing it, funding it or promoting it, less Hasbro pushes ever more anti-consumer nonsense at people...
For $12.50 a month? The 10% off alone would cover the entry fee. I hope they do this.
Ahahahah, 21,50 a month to receive like 5 cards a month. What a bargain!
They really found a way to print money and now they don't even need to sell, people will pay passively.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
For $12.50 a month? The 10% off alone would cover the entry fee. I hope they do this.
Ahahahah, 21,50 a month to receive like 5 cards a month. What a bargain!
They really found a way to print money and now they don't even need to sell, people will pay passively.
Works for the video game industry with all the battle/season passes where people pay for the promise that the 10 year road map that will totally definitely will happen and the game won't stop in 3-5 years. Magic players will get to learn how much of a mistake it is buying into these things now.
For $12.50 a month? The 10% off alone would cover the entry fee. I hope they do this.
Ahahahah, 21,50 a month to receive like 5 cards a month. What a bargain!
They really found a way to print money and now they don't even need to sell, people will pay passively.
I mean, that's still less than I currently spend on Magic. I've spent 20 times that for single cards. -shrug-
For $12.50 a month? The 10% off alone would cover the entry fee. I hope they do this.
Ahahahah, 21,50 a month to receive like 5 cards a month. What a bargain!
They really found a way to print money and now they don't even need to sell, people will pay passively.
Works for the video game industry with all the battle/season passes where people pay for the promise that the 10 year road map that will totally definitely will happen and the game won't stop in 3-5 years. Magic players will get to learn how much of a mistake it is buying into these things now.
Magic players have been shelling out for loot boxes since '93.
If you don't want it, don't buy it. Easy. There's so many terrible things going on in the world to worry about. Why do you people care so much how other people spend their money? I like Secret Lair. I'm going to spend more money on it in the future. I indicated some interest in the membership program when I took the survey and I'm sure many other's did too.
I think most likely it's going to happen. People who want this will overwhelmingly respond to the survey, and if it's made it this far inside the company for them to survey it, they're probably already leaning towards a subscription model. The only way this may not happen is if they got an overwhelming negative response in the survey, or social media, but considering all the other things in the world, probably not a lot of energy will go to this.
I was curious how much you’d “save” with the 10% off, so I took a look at 2020 as a base.
Here are the sets available during that time period, as well as their price and the number of cards included:
Year of the Rat; $39.99; 8 cards
Theros Stargazing Volumes I-V; $39.99 each or $149.99 for all five; between 3 and 15 cards
International Women’s Day; $49.99; 5 cards
Thalia – Beyond the Helvault; $29.99; 4 cards
April Fools; $0.00; 4 cards (only game stores could get these, but those were gifts too)
The Godzilla Lands; $29.99; 5 cards
*Full Sleeves: The Tattoo Pack; $29.99; 5 cards
*Can You Feel with a Heart of Steel?; $39.99; 3 cards
*The Path Not Traveled; $39.99; 4 cards
*Mountain, Go; $29.99; 4 cards
*Ornithological Studies; $29.99; 5 cards
(* These sets were part of the Summer Superdrop, and thus could be combined for $169.95, which gives 1 random fetch land from the Secret Lair Ultimate Edition)
Prime Slime; $29.99; 5 cards
Every Dog Has Its Day; $29.99 (non-foil), or $39.99 (foil); 4 cards
Happy Yargle Day!; $29.99 (non-foil), or $39.99 (foil); 5 cards
Showcase: Zendikar Revisited; $29.99 (non-foil), or $39.99 (foil); 5 cards
(** These sets were part of the Secret Lair Secretversary, and thus could be bundled in one of three ways: $99.99 for all non-foil sets; $139.99 for all foil sets; $229.99 for all sets)
So, to get absolutely everything from the 2020 Secret Lairs, bundling where possible and not accounting for taxes and shipping, you spend $1,049.81. This nets you 156 cards, in a mix of foils and non-foils, and not counting “secrets” like the Stained-Glass Planeswalkers.
If you weren’t getting both version of the sets available in foil and non-foil, this lowers to either $899.83 (for foils) or $839.83 (for non-foils) and 123 cards.
Now, we don’t know exactly what WotC is going to do as far as the subscription goes. They could choose to bundle things up, or they could choose to do it individually. They may charge for both foil and non-foil, or they may just leave it at one. They may force subscribers to buy everything, or they may allow you to skip on Secret Lairs you don’t want. We don’t know.
Let’s assume the worst: signing up for this charges you the highest amount I listed. It bundles some together, but double dips on foils and non-foils.
A 10% discount saves you…$104.98.
Assuming the 4 “subscriber only” secret lairs cost $39.99 a piece, that 10% discount jumps up to…$120.98.
Now, to be excessively fair, free shipping will likely drive those numbers a little closer to the cost of the subscription. But as it stands, paying $149 ($12.42 a month) for a 10% discount does not pay for itself. Not unless WotC prints more Secret Lairs this year than they did last year, and signs aren’t looking great there. By this time last year, we’d already had 2 more Secret Lairs than the current count.
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Salient points:
The subscription would basically be an auto purchase of each secret lair or bundle at time of release with immediate or at least first priority shipment. Was vague about whether you could effectively opt out of ones you didn't want without cancelling the subscription.
The membership would be an annual fee (149 or 99 depending on perks) that offered thins like early access to purchase drops, automatic free shipping, a 10% discount (on the 149 option), exclusive drops, merch, etc.
Also asked about interest in an app for drop alerts and purchasing.
HARD PASS
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Sell directly to the customers and put them in a subscription model so they pay money passively.
There are for sure people that will buy any no matter what, even if they lose money buying them.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I don't live in the US, and I have bought 2 secret lairs so far, one the first one I got help from a friend who brought me the goods from the US, the second I got was secretversary, I spent 100 on shipping of two non foil bundles. I am not a store but my intention was to sell 5 drops and keep 3 that I really wanted and come out without loosing money. I sold 5 and covered all my expenses, the 3 I kept were basically free. So now I am considering to dedicate my self to importing secret lairs to my country and make some bucks so maybe this subscription offers something interesting, but it will depend a lot on the secret lairs, so far I think I have good "eye" to choose the most desirable ones, but if they flood the market it is going to be more difficult.
Whether you like it or not, vote with your wallets.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
People bought a lot of the initial secret lairs so we're getting a lot of secret lairs.
People bought a lot of Secret Lair: The Walking Dead and now we have Universes Beyond.
This is an opportunity to directly tell wizards that you would not purchase a Secret Lair subscription/membership program. If the only people who complete this survey are the people who REALLY like secret lairs and you just ignore it, you are going to live in a world where the best value reprints of the year end up being locked behind a $250 FOMO gate.
I hate Secret Lairs so very much.
I think the FOMO here is less about "I won't be able to get it" and more "If I change my mind later and want it, how much more money will I have to spend."
As someone trying to backfill some Pokémon games I missed, I really wish I'd gotten some games earlier, for example.
Sure, but that's literally all of Magic.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Fair point, but I think it's a bit different with a limited run product, versus something they have a full print run of. Plus there's the whole "any normal card has a chance to be reprinted" but there's even less guarantee we'll ever see these variants ever again.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
The scale is a bit different though and that, unfortunately, matters. Something that gets printed for a year straight in multiple languages, in stores everywhere, with a chance to be reprinted any time that world is revisited or a new set comes out, has a significantly larger pool than a set printed to demand, with that demand only noted during a week or weekend, only in English, and only shipped to one part of the world.
It's akin to the Reserved List. We don't know for sure yet that it is, because they haven't really said one way or the other if any of this will be reprinted, but the smaller the quantity of available cards, the quicker and easier it is to get priced out down the line.
And I totally get that there are a lot of Magic players who complain about Wizards not printing to their specific needs or price range, and it can get massively annoying, but that's them literally talking about how they missed out, even on the secondary market.
It's the same reason LGS's will buy up singles that seem like they'll be of value from pre-releases (or at least did, I haven't been to any in a while, for uh, obvious reasons.)
The movement of this into 'live services' mindsets of subscription models and loot boxes, that offer nothing tangible except the 'ability' to spend money buying the same thing as everyone else, are nothing more than means to financially exploit insecure people and I strongly suggest against endorsing it, funding it or promoting it, less Hasbro pushes ever more anti-consumer nonsense at people...
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
Ahahahah, 21,50 a month to receive like 5 cards a month. What a bargain!
They really found a way to print money and now they don't even need to sell, people will pay passively.
Works for the video game industry with all the battle/season passes where people pay for the promise that the 10 year road map that will totally definitely will happen and the game won't stop in 3-5 years. Magic players will get to learn how much of a mistake it is buying into these things now.
I mean, that's still less than I currently spend on Magic. I've spent 20 times that for single cards. -shrug-
Magic players have been shelling out for loot boxes since '93.
The survey is just a means to get people talking and to drive hype.
Here are the sets available during that time period, as well as their price and the number of cards included:
If you weren’t getting both version of the sets available in foil and non-foil, this lowers to either $899.83 (for foils) or $839.83 (for non-foils) and 123 cards.
Now, we don’t know exactly what WotC is going to do as far as the subscription goes. They could choose to bundle things up, or they could choose to do it individually. They may charge for both foil and non-foil, or they may just leave it at one. They may force subscribers to buy everything, or they may allow you to skip on Secret Lairs you don’t want. We don’t know.
Let’s assume the worst: signing up for this charges you the highest amount I listed. It bundles some together, but double dips on foils and non-foils.
A 10% discount saves you…$104.98.
Assuming the 4 “subscriber only” secret lairs cost $39.99 a piece, that 10% discount jumps up to…$120.98.
Now, to be excessively fair, free shipping will likely drive those numbers a little closer to the cost of the subscription. But as it stands, paying $149 ($12.42 a month) for a 10% discount does not pay for itself. Not unless WotC prints more Secret Lairs this year than they did last year, and signs aren’t looking great there. By this time last year, we’d already had 2 more Secret Lairs than the current count.