Too slow? Even if you found a way to accelerate Niv-Mizzet into play, you would still need a Mindmoil as well. Teferi's Puzzle Box is a little cheaper, but you can't do as much per turn.
I was considering trying Niv in a BU reanimator type deck (with Goryo's Vengeance), but I don't think it'll work :slant:
you could go for another combo by throwing in the izzet guildmage. i believe there was a thread to explain the combo and build a deck around it but i'll save you the time:
guildmage plus lavaspike with desperate ritual spliced onto it. for six mana you copy the lavaspike and hit for infinite damage cause it pays for itself.
this should fit since your already running two thirds of the combo (rituals andspikes).
you might also want to run gelectrode to play even more with the guild mage.
Too slow? Even if you found a way to accelerate Niv-Mizzet into play, you would still need a Mindmoil as well.
I was considering trying Niv in a BU reanimator type deck (with Goryo's Vengeance), but I don't think it'll work :slant:
I thought about that too, I just wanted to see If we could get a mindmoil/Niv-Izzet deck running...
Its gets crazy how fast you can deal damage once that is out. *shock, draw 3, deal 3, lava spike, draw 2, deal 2, compulsive research discarding a land, draw 1, deal 1, volcanic hammer, draw 2, deal 2...ect...* You get the point.
At one point I also considered gelectrode but that is WAY to fragile for its cost.
EDIT: I actually had more trouble getting Niv-Izzet into play than mind moil as mindmoil is in seething song range.
I would consider running Ideas Unbound over Research, despite the greater discard and UU cost. It costs less (for when you already have the Niv), gives you more possible spells for the turn (which matters once the Niv is out), and is Arcane for splicing.
I also think the Hammer is suboptimal for this type of deck. You might want to consider running something like Tops instead.
Right now, I'm playing a slightly similar deck, except it relies a lot more on cheap cantrips and the Gigi guy (pinger). Sure, it's not the most consistent thing in the world, but it is fun as hell when you pull the combo off. Just know how to hold a few cards when keeping defensive, and watch the fireworks!
Now, this is a REALLY primitive draft, but it seems to do OK against random, non-top-tier stuff. When this goes off, you're bound to turn some heads. But how could I make it better?
Maybe you can try ethereal usher as Niv-Mizzets 5-8 for consistency? Run lots of cheap burn/draw, but I think your build is fine. Might want to try the puzzle box, just for some extra points of damage, and its colourless.
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It was just a suggestion. I haven't done playtesting, but it seemed like a decent possibility because 1) it helps you find the combo pieces, and 2) it's cheap (only 1 colorless) and counts as an extra draw for Niv.
It was just a suggestion. I haven't done playtesting, but it seemed like a decent possibility because 1) it helps you find the combo pieces, and 2) it's cheap (only 1 colorless) and counts as an extra draw for Niv.
I hear that, i'll do some goldfishing and get back to you.
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Jushi Apprentice is a card that shouldn't be overlooked in this deck. When he is flipped and you have Niv in play he really deals some serious damage. Yet unlike Mindmoil he is good without Niv as well.
It was just a suggestion. I haven't done playtesting, but it seemed like a decent possibility because 1) it helps you find the combo pieces, and 2) it's cheap (only 1 colorless) and counts as an extra draw for Niv.
Not only that, in the mid-late game with Niv-Mizzet out, having two tops gives you:
:1mana:: PING
By having both tops out.....use one to draw.....there's a ping.....then you use the other top to draw the first top.....ping.....play the first top again.....rinse and repeat. This is similar to the strategy used by players on MTGO using the Serra Angel Avatar to gain lots of life in one turn while waiting around for a win condition [usually mill].
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I also don't think we should be relying on Niv too much. What do you think?
Well.....the OP was trying to figure out a deck around Niv-Mizzet, so true we shouldn't rely on him entirely for the win, but it's the focus of the deck, and running anything less than 4 of defeats the casual purpose.
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind :2mana::symu::symu::symr::symr:
Legendary Creature - Dragon Wizard
Flying
Whenever you draw a card, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
:symtap:: Draw a card.
4/4 "(Z->)90° - (E-N²W)90°t=1"
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Anyway, I think the Ethereal Usher tutor is good, but if you get the Mindmoil out, you don't really need to tutor for anything.
Between the signets, Seething Songs, and Desperate Rituals you should be able to just play it like a storm deck while searching for Niv, if you need to. Play the accelerators to float mana, puzzle-box with the Mind Moil, rinse, repeat. A lot of mana burn if you don't find one, but with 4-of, it shouldn't be a concern in the first place.
But this means that you *NEED* a Mind Moil for most games. With that being the case, I would probably add in Teferi's Puzzle Box just to add in redundancy, and searching.
Summary:
1) Shouldn't need tutoring for Niv with a Mindmoil out.
2) You seem to NEED a Mindmoil. Add Puzzle Box for redundancy and searching, due to a lack of enchantment/5CC tutors for these colours
3) Good Luck, I look forward to seeing a deck like this one get up and operating
soooo summary on my goldfishing... ( i used my build slightly upper but added top.. )
niv-mizzet + mindmoil = win in that or next turn
mindmoil out = find mizzet with it
umm so all you need is get mindmoil out fast.. easy? HELL NO we really need freakin tutor for mindmoil. the deck has very little if any consistency without tutor, if you dont draw mindmoil or find it fast (at least on turn 4) you.. lose. all 4cc transmutes are at least partly black so no transmute for it.. gosh.
tops proved to be fine once when i got top + mindmoil out i could play top, respond to mindmoil's effect by putting top on top of ur library then drawing it with mindmoil. effectively 1; deal X damage divided between any number of target creatures and players, where X is the number of cards in your hand
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I was considering trying Niv in a BU reanimator type deck (with Goryo's Vengeance), but I don't think it'll work :slant:
maybe in a BG reanimator with greater good and NIv as the kill, reanimate it, then another fatty sac the fat for around 8 damage and some cards and repeat
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Amadi: How much card draw are you running in your version?
pollolacandon: Hm, that's an interesting thought. But I don't think BG can fill its graveyard fast enough (even with Dredge), and BU gives you Splicing options... But in any case, I'm going to be trying all different kinds of Reanimator builds with all the new Legends in Rav block. It's too bad the Yore-Tiller isn't a legend
Well, maybe it's just me, but... if you're already paying 6 mana for a 4/4 with flying... you're probably gonna be beating face with your 4/4 with flying. I mean, his ability if done right will get rid of some annoyances you'll face or up his damage, but... assuming he's gonna stay in play for a while, I think the 4/4 flying part should be doing at least half the damage. I mean, the only way I think the draw=damage ability will be that amazingly relevant is if you can either prevent both sides from attacking, or you draw at least four cards a turn or so... neither being an easy feat.
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Amadi: How much card draw are you running in your version?
umm not too much but some, mainly 4 ideas unbound and few random spells
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
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Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Espically if you run the Ritual and Song can add the Tron to make your Invoke the Firemind to be very deadly. But with all of the tough casting cost of the spells there should SIgnets in the deck to.
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I was thinking mabey mindmoil and a bunch of 1cc and 2cc spells.
Also, what way should we go about getting Niv Izzet into play? I have tried the standard casting but its just too slow.
Any suggestions?
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The build I am currently testing is...
4 Lava Spike
4 Shock
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Glacial Ray
4 Mindmoil
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 compulsive research
4 reach through mists
4 R/U painland
3 island
10 mountain
I know it can use alot of work but thats why I brought it here.
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I was considering trying Niv in a BU reanimator type deck (with Goryo's Vengeance), but I don't think it'll work :slant:
guildmage plus lavaspike with desperate ritual spliced onto it. for six mana you copy the lavaspike and hit for infinite damage cause it pays for itself.
this should fit since your already running two thirds of the combo (rituals andspikes).
you might also want to run gelectrode to play even more with the guild mage.
good luck!
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I thought about that too, I just wanted to see If we could get a mindmoil/Niv-Izzet deck running...
Its gets crazy how fast you can deal damage once that is out. *shock, draw 3, deal 3, lava spike, draw 2, deal 2, compulsive research discarding a land, draw 1, deal 1, volcanic hammer, draw 2, deal 2...ect...* You get the point.
At one point I also considered gelectrode but that is WAY to fragile for its cost.
EDIT: I actually had more trouble getting Niv-Izzet into play than mind moil as mindmoil is in seething song range.
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I also think the Hammer is suboptimal for this type of deck. You might want to consider running something like Tops instead.
4x Gelectrode
2x Niv-Mizzet
4x Eye of the Storm
3x Mindmoil
4x Peer through Depths
4x Remand
4x Mana Leak
3x Reach Through Mists
3x Telling Time
4x Steam Vents
15x Island
4x Mountain
Now, this is a REALLY primitive draft, but it seems to do OK against random, non-top-tier stuff. When this goes off, you're bound to turn some heads. But how could I make it better?
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
I might actually try the izzet signet in the place of the hammer as it helps make sure I have the blue for Niv.
EDIT: YAY Another list! ^
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It was just a suggestion. I haven't done playtesting, but it seemed like a decent possibility because 1) it helps you find the combo pieces, and 2) it's cheap (only 1 colorless) and counts as an extra draw for Niv.
I hear that, i'll do some goldfishing and get back to you.
I hear.
I touch.
I speak.
Do you?
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
"lame with mizzet"
I hope you are being sarcastic with that.
Anyway, i'll try this version too.
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1x Minamo, School at Water’s Edge
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Nivix, Aerie of the Firemind
11x Island
8x Mountains
Creatures –13
3x Jushi Apprentice
3x Drifts of Phantasm
3x Gelectrode
3x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1x Hunted Dragon
4x Boomerang
4x Hinder
4x Mana Leak
3x Compulsive Research
3x Electrolyze
2x Pyroclasm
2x Remand
2x Invoke the Firemind
3x Evacuation
3x Thieving Magpie
3x Genju of the Cedars
2x Confiscate
2x Pyroclasm
1x Drifts of Phantasm
Jushi Apprentice is a card that shouldn't be overlooked in this deck. When he is flipped and you have Niv in play he really deals some serious damage. Yet unlike Mindmoil he is good without Niv as well.
Not only that, in the mid-late game with Niv-Mizzet out, having two tops gives you:
:1mana:: PING
By having both tops out.....use one to draw.....there's a ping.....then you use the other top to draw the first top.....ping.....play the first top again.....rinse and repeat. This is similar to the strategy used by players on MTGO using the Serra Angel Avatar to gain lots of life in one turn while waiting around for a win condition [usually mill].
Well.....the OP was trying to figure out a deck around Niv-Mizzet, so true we shouldn't rely on him entirely for the win, but it's the focus of the deck, and running anything less than 4 of defeats the casual purpose.
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Closest thing to a card tag available right now...
Anyway, I think the Ethereal Usher tutor is good, but if you get the Mindmoil out, you don't really need to tutor for anything.
Between the signets, Seething Songs, and Desperate Rituals you should be able to just play it like a storm deck while searching for Niv, if you need to. Play the accelerators to float mana, puzzle-box with the Mind Moil, rinse, repeat. A lot of mana burn if you don't find one, but with 4-of, it shouldn't be a concern in the first place.
But this means that you *NEED* a Mind Moil for most games. With that being the case, I would probably add in Teferi's Puzzle Box just to add in redundancy, and searching.
Summary:
1) Shouldn't need tutoring for Niv with a Mindmoil out.
2) You seem to NEED a Mindmoil. Add Puzzle Box for redundancy and searching, due to a lack of enchantment/5CC tutors for these colours
3) Good Luck, I look forward to seeing a deck like this one get up and operating
Extendo
Also as for the counter suggestions, Im really trying to steer away from a reactive deck unless absolutly nessecary to make it work.
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niv-mizzet + mindmoil = win in that or next turn
mindmoil out = find mizzet with it
umm so all you need is get mindmoil out fast.. easy? HELL NO we really need freakin tutor for mindmoil. the deck has very little if any consistency without tutor, if you dont draw mindmoil or find it fast (at least on turn 4) you.. lose. all 4cc transmutes are at least partly black so no transmute for it.. gosh.
tops proved to be fine once when i got top + mindmoil out i could play top, respond to mindmoil's effect by putting top on top of ur library then drawing it with mindmoil. effectively 1; deal X damage divided between any number of target creatures and players, where X is the number of cards in your hand
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
maybe in a BG reanimator with greater good and NIv as the kill, reanimate it, then another fatty sac the fat for around 8 damage and some cards and repeat
Leche de cabra, azucar, glucosa, carbonato.
(no contiene colorantes ni saborizantes artificiales).
:spirit2:
pollolacandon: Hm, that's an interesting thought. But I don't think BG can fill its graveyard fast enough (even with Dredge), and BU gives you Splicing options... But in any case, I'm going to be trying all different kinds of Reanimator builds with all the new Legends in Rav block. It's too bad the Yore-Tiller isn't a legend
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
umm not too much but some, mainly 4 ideas unbound and few random spells
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Thanks Gary for the Avatar and thanks Topher for the Banner at Aether