As I said, he is good but not format braking, so 20+ is to much, look at lili's price and then tell me if this isn't absurdly overpriced at the moment.
Sure, Jace's price is a bit inflated but I don't think it's that far off. Lili is a better overall card but Jace is better in today's standard, thanks to his +1 which gives him some game against swarmy aggro decks, whereas Liliana is terrible against swarms. Plus Liliana is in a metagame full of Flashback, Snapcaster Mage, Loxodon Smiter, Gravecrawler and much more (graveyard block, yo).
So while Liliana is better overall, Jace is better in standard; and standard is a huge determinant in a card's pricetag. I could see Jaces losing $5, maaaybe $10 max when supply is at its highest, but I don't think it's outrageous.
He dulls aggro, draws like a brainstorm. really? dont understand?
He's a 5 mana walker, can't really do much againt aggro with a 5 mana walker. Aggro shoud've killed you by then.
The draw ability is cool - but cost 2, you can only use twice before he dies. Probably once since walkers with 2 counters are not famous for living long.
He's not good. People are just addicted into thinking "if it's Jace, it must break formats".
Also, if you're really gonna use a 5 mana walker in control, Tamyio makes this guy look even lamer.
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Alea iacta est
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
Its worth so much because people are afraid that every PW that comes out will be the next JTMS. So everyone panics and buys them for a lot more than they are worth on the off chance it shoots up to $100. This is especially true for this card because not only it is Jace, it also has some similarities with JTMS.
No it doesnt. This is a 20 dollar planeswalker. It has applications. People will not start playing blue because of this, but if they are, they will likely play some number of copies.
Liliana of the Veil was much better than this one is.
I started playing blue because I understood how good this Jace is. I got one out of my pre-order box, built a UW Miracle deck for the first week of new Standard, went 3-1. Every game I played my Jace I won easily. So I bought two more, built an American Control deck and 4-0'd FNM at my LGS, winning an entire box of RTR. Pretty good investment, no?
So yes, players like me that never played blue before may go over to the dark side. Happily.
As for your second assertion, let's compare.
Jace +1 -1/0 to each attacking creature vs. Lily Each player discards
Both are applicable to what blue and black want to do. Lily's +1 sometimes hurts the owner as much as the opponent. I know because I own a playset and used her extensively in Scars-Inn Standard. Blunting your opponent's attack with Jace is nice, but rarely a difference-maker. So edge to Lily.
Jace -2 mini Fact or Fiction vs. Lily -2 Target player sacs a creature
This is the reason to play either 'walker. Lily's -2 sometimes hits their best guy, sometimes sets you up for morbid, but sometimes isn't worth using. Jace's -2 is always useful and better. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game.
Jace -8 Select two cards to cast for free vs. Lily -6 Cut opponent's permanents in half.
I've used Lily's ultimate a few times, but for the most part, it's rarely relevant. Black is good at keeping things off the board, and killing land almost never matters. The vast majority of the time, Lily cycles up and down keeping your opponent's hand and board as empty as possible. Pretty good in the right deck.
I've tried Jace's ultimate exactly once so far. I was up against a Golgari Ramp deck. I used Jace's ultimate to cast my opponent's Griselbrand and snagged a Detention Sphere from my own deck to exile his Liliana of the Dark Realms for free. Then I replaced the Jace I just used with the one in my hand and got another 2 cards. And then I got 7 more cards from Griselbrand.
Which do you think is better?
Thought so.
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My Decks:
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
[CARD]Jace, Architect of Thought
[/CARD]
I must be missing something, but why is the RTR Jace already fetching $50+? Are people just jumping to conclusions or does he have a home in other formats? I've re-read his abilities a few times and can't figure out what is making him so valuable.
The old "Yawgmoth's Mox Lotus" Rule. Having the name "jace" increases value for no reason upon release.
And most walkers start at $50 now. It's why smart people don't purchase new walkers for about 6 months.
He's a 5 mana walker, can't really do much againt aggro with a 5 mana walker. Aggro shoud've killed you by then.
The draw ability is cool - but cost 2, you can only use twice before he dies. Probably once since walkers with 2 counters are not famous for living long.
He's not good. People are just addicted into thinking "if it's Jace, it must break formats".
Also, if you're really gonna use a 5 mana walker in control, Tamyio makes this guy look even lamer.
First, he's a 4 mana walker. Second, his -2 is extremely effective against aggro. What kind of deck do you think is playing him? Go look at some deck lists. See all the sweepers? See all the counters? That stops aggro cold.
I haven't dropped a match to an aggro deck since I switched to blue two weeks ago, and can count the number of games I've lost (in practice or tournament play) on one hand.
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My Decks:
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
He is way too expensive and how does everyone already know todays standard? Rotation just happened and states just happened. I think once "todays standard" is figured out he will drop. I know he goes in control decks that sweep boards and all that but if you have an army of 3/3's, 4/4's and greater his +1 wont hurt anything . He is a cool planes walker dont get me wrong but I dont think anyone knows "todays standard" yet and for some reason it seems people want another overpriced Card.
He's a 5 mana walker, can't really do much againt aggro with a 5 mana walker. Aggro shoud've killed you by then.
The draw ability is cool - but cost 2, you can only use twice before he dies. Probably once since walkers with 2 counters are not famous for living long.
He's not good. People are just addicted into thinking "if it's Jace, it must break formats".
Also, if you're really gonna use a 5 mana walker in control, Tamyio makes this guy look even lamer.
See this is why i can't take a lot of posters comments seriously, you couldn't make it anymore obvious that you have never played with the card.
The old "Yawgmoth's Mox Lotus" Rule. Having the name "jace" increases value for no reason upon release.
And most walkers start at $50 now. It's why smart people don't purchase new walkers for about 6 months.
Most Walkers start at $50? Have you not paid attention at all over the past month? I ordered 12 Jaces for under $20 a piece (plus another 4 for under $25). He certainly was not a $50 Planeswalker to start.
He is way too expensive and how does everyone already know todays standard? Rotation just happened and states just happened. I think once "todays standard" is figured out he will drop. I know he goes in control decks that sweep boards and all that but if you have an army of 3/3's, 4/4's and greater his +1 wont hurt anything . He is a cool planes walker dont get me wrong but I dont think anyone knows "todays standard" yet and for some reason it seems people want another overpriced Card.
You don't think his +1 is good against 3/3s? You should play him and see if you still think that. Also, what cards are actually 3/3s or 4/4s in this format?
Well we got Olivia,thragtusk,cetaur tokens,angel tokens, falkenrath aristocrat,loxodon smiter,armada wurm+token,sublime archangel and all her buffed up dudes,restoration angel, sigarda and the list goes on and on, and as far as control decks are concerned with jace and all its sweepers, im pretty sure that the junk tokens deck that placed 1st didnt have too many issues with it. I personally pulled a couple of jace 4 out of booster boxes and was very happy to see it so expensive but only because I was able to trade them for shock lands and all sorts of other good stuff. As far as arguing that a card should be 40+ seems really strange to me seeing that alot of people quit this game because of outlandish prices and the total loss of creativity when they see everyone playing net decks. I know that if you want to win you have to fight fire with fire but arguing that a card should be overpriced is just silly.
If anyone is overestimating it, they haven't actually played him. There was not a single game I played him this weekend that I did not win.
Meh. I saw Jace constantly this weekend as everyone rushed out with various control decks after it won last weekend. UWR control, Bant control with jace (a much better list imo), etc.
Jace was a solid play but not a huge deal. I had him played against me 10+ times this weekend and never lost a match to control. One match I killed him and tamiyo simultaneously. Hellkite eats planeswalkers alive and then ALSO has to be removed.
Good card? Yes. Probably one of the best planeswalkers in standard now. $50 or $60 card? Hell no. I was super glad to trade the one I ripped for 3 shocks I needed.
Meh. I saw Jace constantly this weekend as everyone rushed out with various control decks after it won last weekend. UWR control, Bant control with jace (a much better list imo), etc.
Jace was a solid play but not a huge deal. I had him played against me 10+ times this weekend and never lost a match to control. One match I killed him and tamiyo simultaneously. Hellkite eats planeswalkers alive and then ALSO has to be removed.
Good card? Yes. Probably one of the best planeswalkers in standard now. $50 or $60 card? Hell no. I was super glad to trade the one I ripped for 3 shocks I needed.
Lol. Can't wait to see all the states lists with hellkite in 1st. I don't mean to troll you but seriously? You did NOT play against a control deck that let you land Hellkite. Either the deck was terrible or the player was.
Lol. Can't wait to see all the states lists with hellkite in 1st. I don't mean to troll you but seriously? You did NOT play against a control deck that let you land Hellkite. Either the deck was terrible or the player was.
Not many decks are running coutnerspells. Its completely believeable that he killed many a walkers with hellkite.
You don't think his +1 is good against 3/3s? You should play him and see if you still think that. Also, what cards are actually 3/3s or 4/4s in this format?
Most Walkers start at $50? Have you not paid attention at all over the past month? I ordered 12 Jaces for under $20 a piece (plus another 4 for under $25). He certainly was not a $50 Planeswalker to start.
Vraska was $50 so that was half the walkers in this set at $50+. Sorin and Liliana were both $60+ so there is 40% of the walkers in that set.
Not many decks are running coutnerspells. Its completely believeable that he killed many a walkers with hellkite.
This is very true. Control has been very tap-out, dropping walkers, Thragtusks, Angels. The only time my control deck doesn't want to tap out is late-late game when I'm hoping to Revelation for a million, so that I can tap-out again the next turn. Next week, however, I think I will be running counterspells, since no counterspells leads people to play cards you might want to counter, like Rakdo's Return. I don't like pitching my hand in control. If that starts creeping up in price, you might see less greedy control decks.
I started playing blue because I understood how good this Jace is. I got one out of my pre-order box, built a UW Miracle deck for the first week of new Standard, went 3-1. Every game I played my Jace I won easily. So I bought two more, built an American Control deck and 4-0'd FNM at my LGS, winning an entire box of RTR. Pretty good investment, no?
....
Which do you think is better?
Thought so.
Thank you for explaining why Liliana is a better planeswalker. People on this site who insist Jace is better were starting to get on my nerves.
Modern - RUG Delver RUG - Splinter Twin UR - Jund BRG
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
Thank you for explaining why Liliana is a better planeswalker. People on this site who insist Jace is better were starting to get on my nerves.
I see what you did there.
Please don't misunderstand. I love Lily of the Veil. She's a fantastic walker, one of the best in Standard right now. But only in the right deck. Almost every blue deck lives and dies on card draw and card advantage. Which is what the new Jace does. That's why he's a better walker, why he's so expensive, and likely to stay that way.
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My Decks:
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
I got 1 of him in my RTR PR on MTGO. Didn't help me any, but I don't think I had the right cards to compliment him. With different cards in my deck, but playing the same opponents I could see him being helpful. Not game-changing, but helpful for sure.
Lol. Can't wait to see all the states lists with hellkite in 1st. I don't mean to troll you but seriously? You did NOT play against a control deck that let you land Hellkite. Either the deck was terrible or the player was.
almost none of the bant control lists are running counters, and the uwr control might have a few but tends to burn them up quickly on things like thrag. If too many sit around in the GY for snapcaster they can just be slaughtered.
hellkite isn't some miracle card like thragtusk, but 1 can be very nice vs many decks and hellkite vs control was awesome. I ran 1 main and 1 board which felt great, and from what I understand there were 3 jund midrange decks in our top 8 running hellkite and 0 decks running jace that made it.
I got 1 of him in my RTR PR on MTGO. Didn't help me any, but I don't think I had the right cards to compliment him. With different cards in my deck, but playing the same opponents I could see him being helpful. Not game-changing, but helpful for sure.
sell him asap, before he tankd, MTGOtraders has nonfoil at just under $50, and foils at $75.
Ask 40 and double your thing, wait for him to drop and rebuy him if needed. When i saw his price i was dumbfounded. Yes, he's good, but he's not worth $48 dollars a piece.. MAYBE $30. (which is about $20ish on MTGO)
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His name is Jace, he costs 4, and he poops miniature Fact or Fictions. It seems pretty self-explanatory to me. I've noticed Tamiyos are back up to 20 bucks too. Blue-white control is pretty much guaranteed to be a deck as it has the most efficient sweeper in the format, so don't expect Jace the 4th to go down anytime soon. I'll worry if he becomes good in Modern, because then I'll have to get at least one.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Well we got Olivia,thragtusk,cetaur tokens,angel tokens, falkenrath aristocrat,loxodon smiter,armada wurm+token,sublime archangel and all her buffed up dudes,restoration angel, sigarda and the list goes on and on, and as far as control decks are concerned with jace and all its sweepers, im pretty sure that the junk tokens deck that placed 1st didnt have too many issues with it. I personally pulled a couple of jace 4 out of booster boxes and was very happy to see it so expensive but only because I was able to trade them for shock lands and all sorts of other good stuff. As far as arguing that a card should be 40+ seems really strange to me seeing that alot of people quit this game because of outlandish prices and the total loss of creativity when they see everyone playing net decks. I know that if you want to win you have to fight fire with fire but arguing that a card should be overpriced is just silly.
Jace will still be worth the same number of shocklands in 6 months time. It's unlikely he'll be $50 but then it's unlikely shocks will be $15-20 either.
[CARD]Jace, Architect of Thought
[/CARD]
I must be missing something, but why is the RTR Jace already fetching $50+? Are people just jumping to conclusions or does he have a home in other formats? I've re-read his abilities a few times and can't figure out what is making him so valuable.
From the reports I've read so far, he's a 4-of in every Miracle Control deck right now, and a lot of those decks are winning so it's probably popular.
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*Looks at Liliana of the Veil's price, tells you Jace, Architect of Thought isn't absurdly overpriced at the moment.*
Sure, Jace's price is a bit inflated but I don't think it's that far off. Lili is a better overall card but Jace is better in today's standard, thanks to his +1 which gives him some game against swarmy aggro decks, whereas Liliana is terrible against swarms. Plus Liliana is in a metagame full of Flashback, Snapcaster Mage, Loxodon Smiter, Gravecrawler and much more (graveyard block, yo).
So while Liliana is better overall, Jace is better in standard; and standard is a huge determinant in a card's pricetag. I could see Jaces losing $5, maaaybe $10 max when supply is at its highest, but I don't think it's outrageous.
He's a 5 mana walker, can't really do much againt aggro with a 5 mana walker. Aggro shoud've killed you by then.
The draw ability is cool - but cost 2, you can only use twice before he dies. Probably once since walkers with 2 counters are not famous for living long.
He's not good. People are just addicted into thinking "if it's Jace, it must break formats".
Also, if you're really gonna use a 5 mana walker in control, Tamyio makes this guy look even lamer.
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
I started playing blue because I understood how good this Jace is. I got one out of my pre-order box, built a UW Miracle deck for the first week of new Standard, went 3-1. Every game I played my Jace I won easily. So I bought two more, built an American Control deck and 4-0'd FNM at my LGS, winning an entire box of RTR. Pretty good investment, no?
So yes, players like me that never played blue before may go over to the dark side. Happily.
As for your second assertion, let's compare.
Jace +1 -1/0 to each attacking creature vs. Lily Each player discards
Both are applicable to what blue and black want to do. Lily's +1 sometimes hurts the owner as much as the opponent. I know because I own a playset and used her extensively in Scars-Inn Standard. Blunting your opponent's attack with Jace is nice, but rarely a difference-maker. So edge to Lily.
Jace -2 mini Fact or Fiction vs. Lily -2 Target player sacs a creature
This is the reason to play either 'walker. Lily's -2 sometimes hits their best guy, sometimes sets you up for morbid, but sometimes isn't worth using. Jace's -2 is always useful and better. If you think otherwise, you might be playing the wrong game.
Jace -8 Select two cards to cast for free vs. Lily -6 Cut opponent's permanents in half.
I've used Lily's ultimate a few times, but for the most part, it's rarely relevant. Black is good at keeping things off the board, and killing land almost never matters. The vast majority of the time, Lily cycles up and down keeping your opponent's hand and board as empty as possible. Pretty good in the right deck.
I've tried Jace's ultimate exactly once so far. I was up against a Golgari Ramp deck. I used Jace's ultimate to cast my opponent's Griselbrand and snagged a Detention Sphere from my own deck to exile his Liliana of the Dark Realms for free. Then I replaced the Jace I just used with the one in my hand and got another 2 cards. And then I got 7 more cards from Griselbrand.
Which do you think is better?
Thought so.
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
RTR - Theros
RDW 6-0 1 TNM Win-A-Box
Esper Control 7-4
Boros Burn 3-1
RW Devotion 3-1
Monoblack Devotion 8-4
The old "Yawgmoth's Mox Lotus" Rule. Having the name "jace" increases value for no reason upon release.
And most walkers start at $50 now. It's why smart people don't purchase new walkers for about 6 months.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013First, he's a 4 mana walker. Second, his -2 is extremely effective against aggro. What kind of deck do you think is playing him? Go look at some deck lists. See all the sweepers? See all the counters? That stops aggro cold.
I haven't dropped a match to an aggro deck since I switched to blue two weeks ago, and can count the number of games I've lost (in practice or tournament play) on one hand.
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
RTR - Theros
RDW 6-0 1 TNM Win-A-Box
Esper Control 7-4
Boros Burn 3-1
RW Devotion 3-1
Monoblack Devotion 8-4
See this is why i can't take a lot of posters comments seriously, you couldn't make it anymore obvious that you have never played with the card.
Most Walkers start at $50? Have you not paid attention at all over the past month? I ordered 12 Jaces for under $20 a piece (plus another 4 for under $25). He certainly was not a $50 Planeswalker to start.
You don't think his +1 is good against 3/3s? You should play him and see if you still think that. Also, what cards are actually 3/3s or 4/4s in this format?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Meh. I saw Jace constantly this weekend as everyone rushed out with various control decks after it won last weekend. UWR control, Bant control with jace (a much better list imo), etc.
Jace was a solid play but not a huge deal. I had him played against me 10+ times this weekend and never lost a match to control. One match I killed him and tamiyo simultaneously. Hellkite eats planeswalkers alive and then ALSO has to be removed.
Good card? Yes. Probably one of the best planeswalkers in standard now. $50 or $60 card? Hell no. I was super glad to trade the one I ripped for 3 shocks I needed.
Lol. Can't wait to see all the states lists with hellkite in 1st. I don't mean to troll you but seriously? You did NOT play against a control deck that let you land Hellkite. Either the deck was terrible or the player was.
Not many decks are running coutnerspells. Its completely believeable that he killed many a walkers with hellkite.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Dreg Mangler is a 3/3. Geralf's Messenger is a 3/2. Falkenrath Aristocrat is a 4/1. Those cards tend to appear together in similar decks.
Not to mention Geist of Saint Traft, Thragtusk, Silverblade Paladin Soulbonded with anything...
Vraska was $50 so that was half the walkers in this set at $50+. Sorin and Liliana were both $60+ so there is 40% of the walkers in that set.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
This is very true. Control has been very tap-out, dropping walkers, Thragtusks, Angels. The only time my control deck doesn't want to tap out is late-late game when I'm hoping to Revelation for a million, so that I can tap-out again the next turn. Next week, however, I think I will be running counterspells, since no counterspells leads people to play cards you might want to counter, like Rakdo's Return. I don't like pitching my hand in control. If that starts creeping up in price, you might see less greedy control decks.
Thank you for explaining why Liliana is a better planeswalker. People on this site who insist Jace is better were starting to get on my nerves.
Legacy - RUG Delver RUG - Maverick GW - SI BG
Foreigning out SI, currently 33/75. The only thing better than a T1 kill is doing it with cards no one has ever heard of and/or can't read. If anyone has any of the usual pieces, PM me. I'm willing to buy/trade.
I see what you did there.
Please don't misunderstand. I love Lily of the Veil. She's a fantastic walker, one of the best in Standard right now. But only in the right deck. Almost every blue deck lives and dies on card draw and card advantage. Which is what the new Jace does. That's why he's a better walker, why he's so expensive, and likely to stay that way.
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
RTR - Theros
RDW 6-0 1 TNM Win-A-Box
Esper Control 7-4
Boros Burn 3-1
RW Devotion 3-1
Monoblack Devotion 8-4
Irrelevant. The person quoted said all PW are $50, and that is 100% not true since the best PW in this most recent set was under $20.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
almost none of the bant control lists are running counters, and the uwr control might have a few but tends to burn them up quickly on things like thrag. If too many sit around in the GY for snapcaster they can just be slaughtered.
hellkite isn't some miracle card like thragtusk, but 1 can be very nice vs many decks and hellkite vs control was awesome. I ran 1 main and 1 board which felt great, and from what I understand there were 3 jund midrange decks in our top 8 running hellkite and 0 decks running jace that made it.
sell him asap, before he tankd, MTGOtraders has nonfoil at just under $50, and foils at $75.
Ask 40 and double your thing, wait for him to drop and rebuy him if needed. When i saw his price i was dumbfounded. Yes, he's good, but he's not worth $48 dollars a piece.. MAYBE $30. (which is about $20ish on MTGO)
The Merciless Lord of Torture, Permanently Bound To: ">[THE PACK] 11/5/63 - 11/25/09 Goodbye mom, i'll always love you...
Tibalt & His Devils vs. Avacyn's Inquisitors
My EDH decklists
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
Jace will still be worth the same number of shocklands in 6 months time. It's unlikely he'll be $50 but then it's unlikely shocks will be $15-20 either.
From the reports I've read so far, he's a 4-of in every Miracle Control deck right now, and a lot of those decks are winning so it's probably popular.