I never said anything about strictly better, that was the other guy. My point was BBE at uncommon is a lot better than this at mythic.
Also I never said I wanted said card to cost UG. 2/4 at UG is way out of line but I think these were meant to be competitive and they got nerfed before being released. Imagine if this guy was a 2/1 with his current ability for 2? He'd have been glorious and extremely powerful but not likely broken. Further, think of Seer should have been just UB, that way the damage dealt for would have made a difference. As it is now, its nothing.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The Biomancer effect isn't a trigger, it's a replacement effect, so it simply causes them to come in with that many counters. That means the scenario would go like this:
Cast Elvish Promenade -> all tokens enter with counters equal to current power of Biomancer at resolution (Coat of Arms + 4 other elves = Biomancer is 6/8, so six counters) -> you now have five 10/10 elf tokens with six +1/+1 counters on each. This means you've just paid four mana to get five 16/16 creatures and grow all your other stuff :3
Edit: Incidentally, Coat of Arms is now making your Biomancer an 11/13. You should probably play some more elves.
Can someone please clarify whether this would enter the battlefield with 2 +1/+1 counters because of it's own effect? The card doesn't specify other creatures. Does it hit the board as a 4/6 for 4 mana?
Can someone please clarify whether this would enter the battlefield with 2 +1/+1 counters because of it's own effect? The card doesn't specify other creatures. Does it hit the board as a 4/6 for 4 mana?
It specifies on the card each other creature. So its a 2/4.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Ok. The Finks half of the combo is beaten by Splinter Twin, Kiki Pod, and Melira Pod. Do those see play?
So it doesn't beat a couple of decks in modern. Splinter Twin, Kiki Pod, Melira Pod and Poison. That's what sideboards are for. Think of all the matchups that getting the infinite life combo would win. Jund, Bogle, Valakut.. pretty much everything else. No deck in the format has 100% good matchups. Its a one of in Pod to give it more reach, that all I was sayin'.
This guy is severely disappointing. Corpsejack Menace does his job way, way better.
Comparing this to Corpsejack Menace
- Corpsejack don't improve your top draw. (making your small evolve dudes ETB stronger)
- Corpsejack don't place counters by himself. So you need a source for the counters.
- Corpsejack ins't very relevant to evolve, since all it will make is that the evolved creature get 1 extra counter only.
Corpsejack in fact don't compete in function with this guy.
This guy is used to create counters where it don't exist. Improving every play you do after you cast it.
Corpsejack is used to make an already existing counter generation stronger, but don't create the counters by himself. He don't improve in anyway anything played after him directly. Unless that thing is placing counters on itself or other creatures.
Biomancer is only relevant if your in a position you don't want to be in to begin with, is unexciting by himself, and does nothing the turn he hits the field. Corpsejack immediately pumps your already in-play evolve dudes twice when he hits the field. I am going to continue with my pre-existing plans of playing a BUG evolve deck with Corpsejack as the top of my curve, as much as I wish we had gotten a better card to play in place of him, there's no benefit to playing this guy over Corpsejack in an evolve deck.
Biomancer is only relevant if your in a position you don't want to be in to begin with, is unexciting by himself, and does nothing the turn he hits the field. Corpsejack immediately pumps your already in-play evolve dudes twice when he hits the field. I am going to continue with my pre-existing plans of playing a BUG evolve deck with Corpsejack as the top of my curve, as much as I wish we had gotten a better card to play in place of him, there's no benefit to playing this guy over Corpsejack in an evolve deck.
The Biomancer can pump some evolve creatures... those with low toughness, specifically.
And additionally, he helps evolve on the top end, as all your creatures ETB with counters, which can help evolve your lower creatures. Corpsejack can pump up your existing creatures but won't get them any higher than 4/4.
That's going to be the fun part of building the Simic deck... balancing evolvers and fatties, power and toughness.
Also I never said I wanted said card to cost UG. 2/4 at UG is way out of line but I think these were meant to be competitive and they got nerfed before being released. Imagine if this guy was a 2/1 with his current ability for 2? He'd have been glorious and extremely powerful but not likely broken. Further, think of Seer should have been just UB, that way the damage dealt for would have made a difference. As it is now, its nothing.
All I can say is I am glad you're not the person developing these cards. If you would look at back at comparable examples at those costs, Bramblewood Paragon only gave +1/+1 and only affected Elves and was still a tournament quality card, and Bob is one of the best creatures ever printed, so making him a 2/2 flyer would be probably be worth the card parity he creates. Your ideas are insane.
This card is perfectly fine as is. It's an easy turn 3 play off of Rampant Growth, and has a big enough back end to stop an attacking early in the game. Ya, he might die to a trick or some post combat removal, but in the early game those tempo games can be huge and, if you're under no threat, then he makes subsequent creatures monstrous.
Cards that promote some over extension can often be hard to evaluate, especially in a format with an uncounterable sweeper. There are some creatures that work very well with this card. It might end up being a totally casual thing, but dismissing it as unplayable because it doesn't stack up to the card you think it should be is folly and hubris.
I just realized what an incredibly awesome target this is for The Mimeoplasm-
If you can also grab something like Lord of Extinction or Consuming Aberration,
you can cast a 20/20+ Llanowar Elves, BoP, Invisible Stalker, Fathom Mage, etc.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Biomancer is only relevant if your in a position you don't want to be in to begin with
Yeah, and your opponents will be always trying to put you in that position. Because if they let you play as you wish, you will win.
Biomancer is in fact quite good to help to recover from a sweeper, one of the main enemies of this deck.
Your opponent just used a sweeper, luckly you had a Experiment One on the field and regenerated it.
Now with 5 manas you can cast this guy and any 1 mana creature (arbor elf or another experiment one).
Done!
Now you have two 3/3 and a 2/4. Just after a board wipe. And this is in fact a very likely scenario.
And even without the first Experiment One, you still have 2 bodies, a 2/4 and a 3/3 for 5. Not a thragtusk, but you can't play with 8 thragtusks can you? So having a backup plan is good.
Biomancer also adds flexibility. Pair him with Ooze Flux and you have a powerful token generation engine. Great to create board presence without overextending.
Corpsejack just add a small plus, making your evolvers +1/+1 bigger 1 turn sooner. So if you played on curve and only evolve creatures, you will gain 3 extra power in the end.
But go ahead with your plan, it's not a bad plan, specially when both don't fill the same role.
Corpsejack add value to what was played before. Biomancer adds value for what is played after.
Corpsejack add value to what was played before. Biomancer adds value for what was played after.
This is what it boils down to - you don't want value added to what you play after your 4 drop because it shouldn't need it. This guy only helps you if you're behind and doesn't even do a very good job of it. I promise you this guy is bad and won't see any serious play.
This is what it boils down to - you don't want value added to what you play after your 4 drop because it shouldn't need it.
Don't forget, you're not playing alone, and assuming you will be always ahead is a big mistake.
Your opponet will try to put you in a worse situation. He can even don't do it and simply grow faster than you.
Also your assumption that "you will be behind" is wrong. You can cast him easly at T3, and then start poping your dudes.
T1 > Arbor Elf
T2 > Zameck Guildmage
T3 > Biomancer
Better your opponent kill the biomancer or you will have a powerful CA generation engine.
I promise you this guy is bad and won't see any serious play.
As would Corpsejack? And if he see no serious play it's not because of what you think.
Corpsejack is just a win more on this strategy, just making your 3/3's become 4/4's.
And hope your opponent don't supreme veredict you after...
Also relying only on elvove might be your end. Undying is also a great ally of the simic. Specially the Strangleroot Geist
It's very good when everything goes according to the plan. But it don't happens always, and when it don't happen, Corpsejack won't save you.
I'm not saying Corpsejack is any good. Right now he isn't, but I think Evolve has a chance to change that. There is a HUGE difference between pumping your already existing board and pumping dudes you play later. Worst case, Corpsejack is a vanilla 4/4 for 4. In the same scenario this guy is a 2/4 for the same cost and doesn't do anything immediately.
I'm not saying Corpsejack is any good. Right now he isn't, but I think Evolve has a chance to change that. Biomancer doesnt' give any card advantage, I don't know where you're getting that from.
Biomancer + Zameck Guildmage.
Anything you cast will come with two counters ready to be eaten by the Guildmage.
Also i don't get one thing, you said "you don't want value added to what you play after your 4 drop because it shouldn't need it."
So you don't need to add value to anything you drop after turn 3?
Against who would you be playing to have such dominance over the game at turn 3 to not need to gain more value from your plays?
Your plays on turn 4 and 5 should be strong enough without the help of another card. It's clear that you don't understand what I'm trying to get at here, and that I am doing a poor job of explaining it. You can just keep thinking that this card isn't terrible and we'll leave it at that.
All I can say is I am glad you're not the person developing these cards. If you would look at back at comparable examples at those costs, Bramblewood Paragon only gave +1/+1 and only affected Elves and was still a tournament quality card, and Bob is one of the best creatures ever printed, so making him a 2/2 flyer would be probably be worth the card parity he creates. Your ideas are insane.
This card is perfectly fine as is. It's an easy turn 3 play off of Rampant Growth, and has a big enough back end to stop an attacking early in the game. Ya, he might die to a trick or some post combat removal, but in the early game those tempo games can be huge and, if you're under no threat, then he makes subsequent creatures monstrous.
Cards that promote some over extension can often be hard to evaluate, especially in a format with an uncounterable sweeper. There are some creatures that work very well with this card. It might end up being a totally casual thing, but dismissing it as unplayable because it doesn't stack up to the card you think it should be is folly and hubris.
Actually paragon is nastier than my incarnation of Biomancer. Only reason mine could be considered better is that its in blue. This guy doesn't grant evasion. Paragon does at uncommon mind you...
As for the Seer. I'm hearing lots of hype from the pros saying that this is standard playable. What the hell does that mean? It certainly doesn't make this a $15 card. Sure it 's good enough for standard but that's a pretty low bar. Its like saying I'd take it in a draft... I'm still not seeing what the fuss is about for this 4/4 flyer for 4 cause really that's all it is. People are talking about well it'll work well in tempo and I don't play tempo but I don't think filling you opponent's hand has ever been a part of its strategy.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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Maybe Elves will become a thing again? Simic Elves? Simic Mutant Elves?
Teenage Mutant Simic Elves.
...Is it bad that I kind of want to make that deck just for the name?
Also I never said I wanted said card to cost UG. 2/4 at UG is way out of line but I think these were meant to be competitive and they got nerfed before being released. Imagine if this guy was a 2/1 with his current ability for 2? He'd have been glorious and extremely powerful but not likely broken. Further, think of Seer should have been just UB, that way the damage dealt for would have made a difference. As it is now, its nothing.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
sure will! i play gyre sage...
Not Kitchen Finks. That would just be infinite life, which can still be beaten. With stuff like Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood.
It specifies on the card each other creature. So its a 2/4.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Last I checked, neither of these see play in modern.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Ok. The Finks half of the combo is beaten by Splinter Twin, Kiki Pod, and Melira Pod. Do those see play?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
I didn't say it was perfect, but someone was trying to argue against it with cards that don't see play.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
So it doesn't beat a couple of decks in modern. Splinter Twin, Kiki Pod, Melira Pod and Poison. That's what sideboards are for. Think of all the matchups that getting the infinite life combo would win. Jund, Bogle, Valakut.. pretty much everything else. No deck in the format has 100% good matchups. Its a one of in Pod to give it more reach, that all I was sayin'.
Comparing this to Corpsejack Menace
- Corpsejack don't improve your top draw. (making your small evolve dudes ETB stronger)
- Corpsejack don't place counters by himself. So you need a source for the counters.
- Corpsejack ins't very relevant to evolve, since all it will make is that the evolved creature get 1 extra counter only.
Corpsejack in fact don't compete in function with this guy.
This guy is used to create counters where it don't exist. Improving every play you do after you cast it.
Corpsejack is used to make an already existing counter generation stronger, but don't create the counters by himself. He don't improve in anyway anything played after him directly. Unless that thing is placing counters on itself or other creatures.
The Biomancer can pump some evolve creatures... those with low toughness, specifically.
And additionally, he helps evolve on the top end, as all your creatures ETB with counters, which can help evolve your lower creatures. Corpsejack can pump up your existing creatures but won't get them any higher than 4/4.
That's going to be the fun part of building the Simic deck... balancing evolvers and fatties, power and toughness.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
All I can say is I am glad you're not the person developing these cards. If you would look at back at comparable examples at those costs, Bramblewood Paragon only gave +1/+1 and only affected Elves and was still a tournament quality card, and Bob is one of the best creatures ever printed, so making him a 2/2 flyer would be probably be worth the card parity he creates. Your ideas are insane.
This card is perfectly fine as is. It's an easy turn 3 play off of Rampant Growth, and has a big enough back end to stop an attacking early in the game. Ya, he might die to a trick or some post combat removal, but in the early game those tempo games can be huge and, if you're under no threat, then he makes subsequent creatures monstrous.
Cards that promote some over extension can often be hard to evaluate, especially in a format with an uncounterable sweeper. There are some creatures that work very well with this card. It might end up being a totally casual thing, but dismissing it as unplayable because it doesn't stack up to the card you think it should be is folly and hubris.
If you can also grab something like Lord of Extinction or Consuming Aberration,
you can cast a 20/20+ Llanowar Elves, BoP, Invisible Stalker, Fathom Mage, etc.
Must.get.building!
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Biomancer is in fact quite good to help to recover from a sweeper, one of the main enemies of this deck.
Your opponent just used a sweeper, luckly you had a Experiment One on the field and regenerated it.
Now with 5 manas you can cast this guy and any 1 mana creature (arbor elf or another experiment one).
Done!
Now you have two 3/3 and a 2/4. Just after a board wipe. And this is in fact a very likely scenario.
And even without the first Experiment One, you still have 2 bodies, a 2/4 and a 3/3 for 5. Not a thragtusk, but you can't play with 8 thragtusks can you? So having a backup plan is good.
Biomancer also adds flexibility. Pair him with Ooze Flux and you have a powerful token generation engine. Great to create board presence without overextending.
Corpsejack just add a small plus, making your evolvers +1/+1 bigger 1 turn sooner. So if you played on curve and only evolve creatures, you will gain 3 extra power in the end.
But go ahead with your plan, it's not a bad plan, specially when both don't fill the same role.
Corpsejack add value to what was played before. Biomancer adds value for what is played after.
This is what it boils down to - you don't want value added to what you play after your 4 drop because it shouldn't need it. This guy only helps you if you're behind and doesn't even do a very good job of it. I promise you this guy is bad and won't see any serious play.
Your opponet will try to put you in a worse situation. He can even don't do it and simply grow faster than you.
Also your assumption that "you will be behind" is wrong. You can cast him easly at T3, and then start poping your dudes.
T1 > Arbor Elf
T2 > Zameck Guildmage
T3 > Biomancer
Better your opponent kill the biomancer or you will have a powerful CA generation engine.
As would Corpsejack? And if he see no serious play it's not because of what you think.
Corpsejack is just a win more on this strategy, just making your 3/3's become 4/4's.
And hope your opponent don't supreme veredict you after...
Also relying only on elvove might be your end. Undying is also a great ally of the simic. Specially the Strangleroot Geist
It's very good when everything goes according to the plan. But it don't happens always, and when it don't happen, Corpsejack won't save you.
Anything you cast will come with two counters ready to be eaten by the Guildmage.
Also i don't get one thing, you said "you don't want value added to what you play after your 4 drop because it shouldn't need it."
So you don't need to add value to anything you drop after turn 3?
Against who would you be playing to have such dominance over the game at turn 3 to not need to gain more value from your plays?
Actually paragon is nastier than my incarnation of Biomancer. Only reason mine could be considered better is that its in blue. This guy doesn't grant evasion. Paragon does at uncommon mind you...
As for the Seer. I'm hearing lots of hype from the pros saying that this is standard playable. What the hell does that mean? It certainly doesn't make this a $15 card. Sure it 's good enough for standard but that's a pretty low bar. Its like saying I'd take it in a draft... I'm still not seeing what the fuss is about for this 4/4 flyer for 4 cause really that's all it is. People are talking about well it'll work well in tempo and I don't play tempo but I don't think filling you opponent's hand has ever been a part of its strategy.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.