I may be in the minority here, but does anyone else feel like more recent multicolor-themed sets aren't 'gold' enough? Looking at Guilds of Ravnica, only like 85/250 cards are multicolor, and that feels way too small to me. Maybe it's because I started playing magic with Alara block, and I loved the 5-color stuff in Conflux and Alara Reborn being all gold, but it feels like we haven't had anything like that in a long time.
I'm not saying a gold set has to be ALL gold, like ARB, but it seems to me like a gold set should at the very least be half multicolor, something like 125/250ish. Or more! Do you think we'll ever get another set like that?
This feels like a false perception. In Return to Ravnica, 84 out of 274 cards were multicolor, which is not only almost exactly the same number but a slightly lower ratio of cards. The original Ravnica: City of Guilds contained over 300 cards, of which only 64 were multicolor. There were some cards with things like off-color activation costs and the enhanced spells, plus guild artifact and land cycles, to make up the difference, but even factoring things like that in, the number of cards with a "multicolor connection" still seems to be greater in the most recent Ravnica sets.
Ravnica block sets have many times more multicolor cards than the average set, but they don't completely dominate the card count because multicolor isn't the block theme; the guilds and their mechanical identities are the block theme.
There's definitely fewer hybrid-mana cards in Guilds compared to past Ravnica outings, but it seems as though R&D just wanted to focus on traditional multicolor this go-around, with things like the pushed uncommon cycle for MMNN. There are also design space considerations, as hybrid is much harder to design for than straight multicolor for the simple reason that multicolor is additive (can do things color A can do and/or things color B can do, usually in combination) and hybrid is subtractive (can do only things color A AND color B can do).
EDIT: Invasion, the original set to be marketed as "the multicolor set", had 71 out of 350 of its cards multicolor. Shards of Alara had 57 out of 249 multicolor cards.
This feels like a false perception. In Return to Ravnica, 84 out of 274 cards were multicolor, which is not only almost exactly the same number but a slightly lower ratio of cards. The original Ravnica: City of Guilds contained over 300 cards, of which only 64 were multicolor. There were some cards with things like off-color activation costs and the enhanced spells, plus guild artifact and land cycles, to make up the difference, but even factoring things like that in, the number of cards with a "multicolor connection" still seems to be greater in the most recent Ravnica sets.
Ravnica block sets have many times more multicolor cards than the average set, but they don't completely dominate the card count because multicolor isn't the block theme; the guilds and their mechanical identities are the block theme.
There's definitely fewer hybrid-mana cards in Guilds compared to past Ravnica outings, but it seems as though R&D just wanted to focus on traditional multicolor this go-around, with things like the pushed uncommon cycle for MMNN. There are also design space considerations, as hybrid is much harder to design for than straight multicolor for the simple reason that multicolor is additive (can do things color A can do and/or things color B can do, usually in combination) and hybrid is subtractive (can do only things color A AND color B can do).
EDIT: Invasion, the original set to be marketed as "the multicolor set", had 71 out of 350 of its cards multicolor. Shards of Alara had 57 out of 249 multicolor cards.
Okay, fair enough, I guess I was leaning harder towards Alara Reborn than I thought. So let me rephrase, then: Do you think we'll ever have a set that's similar to ARB again? I actually loved the whole set being gold, and would love to see something like that, or close to it, come back.
There is never going to be an all-multicolor set again. Never say never in Magic, but if there's a set-theme scale (let's call it the Torment Scale because "unbalanced colors" is a 10) similar to the Storm and Rabiah Scales, "every card is multicolor" has got to be a 9.
I could see it happening, maybe, if every card were hybrid and not traditional multicolor or there were at least a very large number of hybrid cards, but with every set meant to be drafted on its own, everything requiring at least two colors of mana is just unworkable.
A set like this would be fun, but I think multicolor set shouldn’t be absolutely multicolored. Like, it is a lot hard for limited play and that is a big thing. Imo, sets with 20%-30% pure multicolored and 15-20% with hybrid mana is good, maybe with off colours activations and abilities do the mix more appealing (for exemple, shadowmoor is a multicolor/colormatter set and it has almost 0 pure multicolor cards, most of them are hybrids and cards that care about color. I like a lot this aspect of multicolored and hope it returns)
Multicolered sets don’t need to be all gold, and that is always a good thing cause designers have to be way more creative in the creation and balance of sets
The present distribution they have is fine, because anything greater than half is or would be too much. ARB was a cluster**** of epic proportions because the curve started at 2 cmc and you were forced to go 2, sometimes 3+ colours with limited fixing options. (Yes I understand you had Shards to work with but this is a different situation).
What I'd like to see personally is an emphasis on hybrid like in Shadowmoor/Eventide. That way you can have 1 cmc multicolour cards without breaking the bank...or mana pool in this sense. As sets are now standalone, there would have to be a ton of mana fixing in order for it to function properly in all formats including limited.
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It did sorta bother me that each guild this time around has 1 fewer gold rare than usual, and the hybrid and split card cycles got mashed together, making it feel like the guilds got even fewer cards.
I think they did get more uncommons, which helps. Also, each guild does now have at least one monocolored rare in each of that guild's colors (in most cases anyway), which probably says something important about the ideal ratio of gold-to-monocolor cards in a 2-3 color draft for optimal playability. It would probably end up being a bit less flexible with any more gold cards.
On the bright side, it does conserve design space too, for the next inevitable trip to Ravnica, which I'm looking forward to very much based on something MaRo said recently in a spoiler article about how he wanted to experiment more with a Ravnica set. This time around, he was told to basically give us what we would expect out of Ravnica, so that when we get to the third set which won't be focused on the guilds, we don't feel cheated out of those expectations. He was, however, told that during our 4th visit, he could change things up however he wants, which is very exciting to me.
There is never going to be an all-multicolor set again. Never say never in Magic, but if there's a set-theme scale (let's call it the Torment Scale because "unbalanced colors" is a 10) similar to the Storm and Rabiah Scales, "every card is multicolor" has got to be a 9.
I could see it happening, maybe, if every card were hybrid and not traditional multicolor or there were at least a very large number of hybrid cards, but with every set meant to be drafted on its own, everything requiring at least two colors of mana is just unworkable.
I would say these "gimmick sets" (See also Antiquities and Legions.) are all either a 9 or a 10. It's cute, once.
But with modern multicolor, you have factions, which have a mechanic and a play style, which should be obvious. Note that monochrome cards should be able to fit into at least two, preferably more, factions with those colors; in the original Ravnica, Doubling Season had synergy with three different green guilds. (And of course, these days, guild synergy is more emphasized than it was in just the original Ravnica block.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think the thing you might be noticing is that there are a lot of fine, playable or even great mono-colored cards in the current set. One of the things about multicolor cards is that they have very niche appeal. A single colored card can be played in any deck which has mana sources for that color. Hybrid cards are even more widely aplicable (even if Commander rules make them equal to multicolored). Multicolored cards are only playable in certain decks. So if you've got a lot of multicolored cards in a set, many of them will be unplayable and uninteresting by default to anyone not looking to play those colors. Too many multicolored cards in a set means too few cards individual players are interested in opening.
I mean, I play mono red in Commander, and have several mono-red Commander decks. And also it in pauper. That's a bit extreme, but it's not that different from most people who're all looking for whatever fits their color combination that they're already invested in. I got all the cards I wanted from the Guilds of Ravnica on the night of the prerelease, and had no real reason to even attend any more prereleases even though I had the opportunity. It's simply, there's nothing in the set I need, as it's loaded with multicolored cards. There were great mono-colored cards in it for me, sure, more than great, but the set hadn't even been out and I already had no reason to crack a single pack. I've got nothing to even trade for with people who do open packs or draft. With a regular set this isn't nearly as bad as it is with a multicolored set. And it's been fine with me as red did get incredible stuff, but folks playing other mono-colors aren't nearly as happy. What's there for me in a pack of all-multicolored?
It's not that much different for folks who routinely play 2 colors, either. Especially if they play the "wrong" ones, when it comes to Guilds of Ravnica. The only cards which are useful to them are the mono ones. "Multicolor" is a weird penalty/restriction for cards. For folks who'd put multicolored cards in decks, the strong ones are really great. But for folks not in those colors they literally don't do anything unless they're really valuable and sought after.
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"Masques Block is the worst block ever! There's not one decent card in there! The whole internet say's so, you're literally the only person who ever said it was good!" - random noob in a conversation with an Eldrazi.
I was actually wondering the other day if the 3rd set of the current Ravnica storyline, the one in which the current Bolas storyline will conclude, will do a lot more playing around with colors. I don’t mean I think it will be a 100% multicolor set, but perhaps it will be a tri-color set as certain guilds team up to either fight for or against Bolas.
I was actually wondering the other day if the 3rd set of the current Ravnica storyline, the one in which the current Bolas storyline will conclude, will do a lot more playing around with colors. I don’t mean I think it will be a 100% multicolor set, but perhaps it will be a tri-color set as certain guilds team up to either fight for or against Bolas.
That was how Dragon's Maze went.
I'm sure colorless matters will play a role, both because Ugin will be involved and because Infernal Reckoning. Maybe a sort of inverse Mirrodin, where Fifth Dawn was all about five colors after two sets all about zero colors.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm sure colorless matters will play a role, both because Ugin will be involved and because Infernal Reckoning. Maybe a sort of inverse Mirrodin, where Fifth Dawn was all about five colors after two sets all about zero colors.
Ugin does tend to bring colorless themes wherever he goes, but Infernal Reckoning was just part of M19's cycle of rare hate cards. Goblin Cratermaker makes for a better tip-off, if the colorless hate exists for any reasons pertaining to future sets. Historically, support tends to precede set themes, while hate follows behind, but they could be trying to mix things up.
I don't know that set 3 will be colorless, although we may see some pushed artifacts if they decide to bring tez in.
I think the issue with the lack of multicolor feel is that in limited many of the premium cards in the guilds are just good and do not have a major upside to play the guild rather then the card. This could be that the mechanics do not synergize with themselves but rather other cards synergize with them. This makes the guild seem more fluid and less defined making the set seem like there a less multi color cards due to the mono color cards being more widely playable.
I don't know that set 3 will be colorless, although we may see some pushed artifacts if they decide to bring tez in.
I think the issue with the lack of multicolor feel is that in limited many of the premium cards in the guilds are just good and do not have a major upside to play the guild rather then the card. This could be that the mechanics do not synergize with themselves but rather other cards synergize with them. This makes the guild seem more fluid and less defined making the set seem like there a less multi color cards due to the mono color cards being more widely playable.
And Dimir's mechanic, surveil, is synergistic with the mechanics of the other blue and black guilds in GRN: Undergrowth and jumpstart. I don't think jumpstart is particularly synergistic with mentor, but undergrowth and convoke play a lot of creatures, and that "play a lot of creatures" goes well with mentor because you'll have a creature smaller.
In general, Dimir and Golgari have always played well together, just because mill and graveyard.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm not saying a gold set has to be ALL gold, like ARB, but it seems to me like a gold set should at the very least be half multicolor, something like 125/250ish. Or more! Do you think we'll ever get another set like that?
Ravnica block sets have many times more multicolor cards than the average set, but they don't completely dominate the card count because multicolor isn't the block theme; the guilds and their mechanical identities are the block theme.
There's definitely fewer hybrid-mana cards in Guilds compared to past Ravnica outings, but it seems as though R&D just wanted to focus on traditional multicolor this go-around, with things like the pushed uncommon cycle for MMNN. There are also design space considerations, as hybrid is much harder to design for than straight multicolor for the simple reason that multicolor is additive (can do things color A can do and/or things color B can do, usually in combination) and hybrid is subtractive (can do only things color A AND color B can do).
EDIT: Invasion, the original set to be marketed as "the multicolor set", had 71 out of 350 of its cards multicolor. Shards of Alara had 57 out of 249 multicolor cards.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Okay, fair enough, I guess I was leaning harder towards Alara Reborn than I thought. So let me rephrase, then: Do you think we'll ever have a set that's similar to ARB again? I actually loved the whole set being gold, and would love to see something like that, or close to it, come back.
I could see it happening, maybe, if every card were hybrid and not traditional multicolor or there were at least a very large number of hybrid cards, but with every set meant to be drafted on its own, everything requiring at least two colors of mana is just unworkable.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Multicolered sets don’t need to be all gold, and that is always a good thing cause designers have to be way more creative in the creation and balance of sets
What I'd like to see personally is an emphasis on hybrid like in Shadowmoor/Eventide. That way you can have 1 cmc multicolour cards without breaking the bank...or mana pool in this sense. As sets are now standalone, there would have to be a ton of mana fixing in order for it to function properly in all formats including limited.
'buster
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I think they did get more uncommons, which helps. Also, each guild does now have at least one monocolored rare in each of that guild's colors (in most cases anyway), which probably says something important about the ideal ratio of gold-to-monocolor cards in a 2-3 color draft for optimal playability. It would probably end up being a bit less flexible with any more gold cards.
On the bright side, it does conserve design space too, for the next inevitable trip to Ravnica, which I'm looking forward to very much based on something MaRo said recently in a spoiler article about how he wanted to experiment more with a Ravnica set. This time around, he was told to basically give us what we would expect out of Ravnica, so that when we get to the third set which won't be focused on the guilds, we don't feel cheated out of those expectations. He was, however, told that during our 4th visit, he could change things up however he wants, which is very exciting to me.
I would say these "gimmick sets" (See also Antiquities and Legions.) are all either a 9 or a 10. It's cute, once.
But with modern multicolor, you have factions, which have a mechanic and a play style, which should be obvious. Note that monochrome cards should be able to fit into at least two, preferably more, factions with those colors; in the original Ravnica, Doubling Season had synergy with three different green guilds. (And of course, these days, guild synergy is more emphasized than it was in just the original Ravnica block.)
On phasing:
I mean, I play mono red in Commander, and have several mono-red Commander decks. And also it in pauper. That's a bit extreme, but it's not that different from most people who're all looking for whatever fits their color combination that they're already invested in. I got all the cards I wanted from the Guilds of Ravnica on the night of the prerelease, and had no real reason to even attend any more prereleases even though I had the opportunity. It's simply, there's nothing in the set I need, as it's loaded with multicolored cards. There were great mono-colored cards in it for me, sure, more than great, but the set hadn't even been out and I already had no reason to crack a single pack. I've got nothing to even trade for with people who do open packs or draft. With a regular set this isn't nearly as bad as it is with a multicolored set. And it's been fine with me as red did get incredible stuff, but folks playing other mono-colors aren't nearly as happy. What's there for me in a pack of all-multicolored?
It's not that much different for folks who routinely play 2 colors, either. Especially if they play the "wrong" ones, when it comes to Guilds of Ravnica. The only cards which are useful to them are the mono ones. "Multicolor" is a weird penalty/restriction for cards. For folks who'd put multicolored cards in decks, the strong ones are really great. But for folks not in those colors they literally don't do anything unless they're really valuable and sought after.
That was how Dragon's Maze went.
I'm sure colorless matters will play a role, both because Ugin will be involved and because Infernal Reckoning. Maybe a sort of inverse Mirrodin, where Fifth Dawn was all about five colors after two sets all about zero colors.
On phasing:
Ugin does tend to bring colorless themes wherever he goes, but Infernal Reckoning was just part of M19's cycle of rare hate cards. Goblin Cratermaker makes for a better tip-off, if the colorless hate exists for any reasons pertaining to future sets. Historically, support tends to precede set themes, while hate follows behind, but they could be trying to mix things up.
I think the issue with the lack of multicolor feel is that in limited many of the premium cards in the guilds are just good and do not have a major upside to play the guild rather then the card. This could be that the mechanics do not synergize with themselves but rather other cards synergize with them. This makes the guild seem more fluid and less defined making the set seem like there a less multi color cards due to the mono color cards being more widely playable.
And Dimir's mechanic, surveil, is synergistic with the mechanics of the other blue and black guilds in GRN: Undergrowth and jumpstart. I don't think jumpstart is particularly synergistic with mentor, but undergrowth and convoke play a lot of creatures, and that "play a lot of creatures" goes well with mentor because you'll have a creature smaller.
In general, Dimir and Golgari have always played well together, just because mill and graveyard.
On phasing: