Why would you want to intruduce new players to commander? Edh is one of the most complex formats and people who are just starting with mtg shouldn't really play it first.
That is also true...
I think mtg still lacks a good intro format. Standard is easier to learn, but there's no "casual standard" really. Eternal formats have enormous card pools that are impossible to follow. Limited is probably the best option, but it has a lot of skills to master that don't exist in other formats, so it's kind of overkill if you're trying to graduate to standard or commander.
I think that's what brawl is supposed to be - commander casualness but with a lower barrier to entry.
Every year's precons to date - and I highly doubt this years will be different - are perfectly capable of winning at a 75% table.
I know for a fact that isn't true because I've owned and tried every single Commander deck vs other precons and multiple LGS' casual tables on release.
Edgar, Meren, Freyalise and Daretti had a semblance of a fair game. Arahbo, Atraxa, Breya, Ydris, Ob and Mimeoplasm could win but they were notoriously disadvantaged. The rest couldn't win even a pdh table unless they were pitied or ignored. The sultai and jeskai decks this year look like they're joining that club.
As much as some people whine about C16/C17 and their "many flaws", the people who got into EDH with those precons had a much easier time fitting into a playgroup's ecosystem. This year the only one that looks to have a clear and relatively easy path to LGS playable is the BR one. If you want to take a couple years to slowly make your deck playable while cementing your role as the local punching bag or are starting the game with three friends who all pick a deck and will not play outside of your kitchen table, the other three decks are perfectly fine. But I doubt the people in those situations make a much larger slice of the community than cEDH players. So why not make the ONE product a year the EDH community gets actually fit the needs to the larger EDH community?
"It's not for you" stops meaning ***** when it's said about every product and to what seems to be every player.
Why would you want to intruduce new players to commander? Edh is one of the most complex formats and people who are just starting with mtg shouldn't really play it first.
Most of my friends that I got into magic started with commander. But we started on a $60 budget with no MLD or combo. Its actually not too far away from the lvl of these precons and ya, it worked as far as getting them hooked.
It may still be nothing compared to all the decks before C18 but they did much better new cards and reprints that both newbies and pro players can get
And I do want to mention the fact that they are aimed at newbies rather than pros the pro factor is changing a deck to their prospective and certain reprints
Minor prediction I think K’rrick might end up as the second mono commander to hit the 1000 zone you can easily do a quick win with him
That or just scrap precons down to 1 per year and do a commander booster set with its release so that the market can be tamed more, because some of these staples are ridiculous for new players to acquire (I doubt this will be a popular opinion).
It may not amount to much, but Maro did ask people on his Tumblr if they were interested in a draft set designed with Commander in mind. We might see something like this next year, or maybe the year after if the idea was well received.
Honestly Precons are always targeted at new players. More enfranchised players see value in the reprints typically (as this thread proves), but keep in mind that these decks are also designed for what is supposed to be a casual format. In my experience most (not all) commander precons are, on a power level scale of 1-10 with 1 being the weakest and 10 being the strongest (i.e. cEDH), in the range of 5-7 so about mid level. This is good for introducing new players to the format and usually there are some cheap upgrades that can be made (around $25 or less) to make the decks function better.
With that being said the people arguing for more valuable reprints in these precons do have a point, putting in a better set of staples that fit the theme of the deck (ex. signets over lockets) and 1-2 mid value reprints and 1-2 higher value ($20 range) cards that fit the themes of the decks would be a welcome addition especially for newer players when those cards may be out of their reach when starting. That doesn't mean that everything put in the deck that is a reprint should be a staple. Basic staples that should be included in any precon are sol ring, commander sphere for 2+ color decks, lightning greaves for decks that want to focus on either attacking or commander damage, command tower for 2+ color decks, signets for 2+ color decks, and some (2-3) staples of each color for those decks that help fit the theme of the precon they are going in.
As for the whole new player being the punching bag argument the way I see it is this: those players are new to the game and just learning and it is common knowledge that they are using a premade product that is about mid level in terms of power and they may not have made any upgrades to it yet and I'm not saying take it easy on them, but the other players should adjust accordingly instead of being jerks and just wailing on them with their tuned/cEDH decks because that kills enthusiasm for the game for those players. Its also important for older players to foster an environment where people understand this, granted its not always possible, but it should be attempted. I know at my lgs there are quite a few people that like to build over powered decks and like to think of themselves as cEDH palyers and I don't like playing with them because they are not interested in playing just a 6-8 power level deck and having a casual game. They are in it to win it and win as fast as possible and that is boring to me, but its fun to them, that being said there aren't any other local play groups in the area that play more casually so my options are to either stick with them and adjust (which I can't because of cost, its just very out of my price range) or to just not play with them and attempt to find a new play group. That being said that lgs is not very friendly towards newer players most of the time, especially younger players interested in starting the game. It is pretty much an assumption that if you sit down to play mtg in any format at that store that you are an experienced player unless you are playing with all new players that you either brought with you are met recently, unless someone specifically says this is so and so and they just learned how to play commander and wanted to join us tonight then the expectation changes to: this is a newer player so they aren't very experienced and are likely going to make mistakes, but we will help them when we see it (though not always in the nicest way) and we won't go all out right from the start (except for like 2 people and thats just because they are hyper competitive and even they aren't very well liked in any of the playgroups at the LGS).
With all of that being said I think more experienced/established players should keep in mind that this product is not specifically aimed at them and that it is basically an assumption by WoTC at this point that you're either going to buy the precons or you're going to buy singles of the new cards and the reduced costed reprints that you want out of them and that newer players (the group the product is aimed towards) are going to be more likely to buy this product and use it as a starting point for getting into the format/game. Yes you have some valid complaints, but at the same time if money is the issue then you could just buy the decks and turn around and sell the reprints and new cards and make a profit and then spend that money on something that you want. If the precon with the most value is $40 msrp (about $45 after tax is added to it) and the value of the reprints alone is $75 you just made a $30 profit off the reprints alone, not including the new cards who's values will be highest (most likely) upon release or soon there after and will go up if they are highly sought after or valued cards because they will not be reprinted and as the market changes and their use either increases or decreases will stabilize somewhere between their most expensive value reached and their lowest or upper middle value reached (an example of price fluctuation would be atraxa preator's voice which started out being worth about $8 and reached peak value at around $53 and has reduced in price to a more stable $30-$40 depending on condition according to mtggoldfish.).
You have to keep in mind that WoTC doesn't know what the exact value of the new cards will be upon release or how those card prices will fluctuate in the next few months, they have an estimated value of those cards and that's all they have upon release so it would be fair to reason that the reason they don't include the more high value staples and reprints (i.e. $10-$20 range) is because of the estimated value of the newer cards and they are already providing you with a product (in most cases) that is worth more than the msrp of the product. They are also aware that LGSs are notorious for price gouging products once they know that there are very expensive reprints in precons. Look at the cost of some of the previous commander precons as an example, the cost of the atraxa deck doubled just a few months after release (granted it was because of it being a limited printing and super popular at the time) or even the Frealise or Kalia decks both of which are valued at more than double what they were at the time of release. So yes WoTC very likely does take into consideration what LGSs tend to do with high value products soon after release in order to increase their profits, some overcharge on the msrp right away pricing the product at $45 before tax which just proves my point on this.
So while complaining to WoTC can be helpful, you really shouldn't expect much from them (this is a capitalist society after all and profits come first). You should also take into consideration at who the product's target demographic is. Reprints are included for more than just adding value to the precons they are added because its cheaper and more efficient than designing a whole new set of brand new cards for 4 new decks and putting in very few reprints. They include certain reprints in order to help entice more established players into buying these products by picking cards that they think people will want, and this doesn't always work out very well for them, but keep in mind they will want to choose cards that match the theme of the deck and don't feel forced into it in order to keep their target demographic happy. Anyone who knows anything about marketing will likely tell you that when making a product to be placed on the market the needs/wants or perceived needs/wants of the target demographic come first.
I feel that I should also note that the people that designed these precons are likely not the exact same group as the ones that did the previous precons. There maybe some members that are still the same, but likely they have swapped personnel out to work on these. It should also be mentioned that of the list of things that the WoTC rep or whatever he was said likely had an order or prioritization and making the decks more on theme appears to have taken top priority. This is clearly the easiest way to make the most people happy about this years product, or at least lower the amount of disappointment overall, because again they are looking at the target demographic's reactions to last year's product.
I think the point is that when the new player sits down for the first time and gets steamrolled, they're going to be unpleasantly surprised to find how exorbitant the costs can be to upgrade their deck (Cyclonic Rift is how much?!). Filling these commander products with needed reprints helps everyone trying to cultivate an EDH collection do so w/o having to apply for a line of credit. For example:
Seedborn Muse is a format staple that makes virtually every deck containing green better by its inclusion. Not long ago it was a $30 card. That's a LOT of money for a card that isn't played in any sort of competitive environment. This new reprint is preselling for under $10 and it's only going to go down.
The new player needs as many of these reprints as they can get. They don't need, nor do they want, 15 cent cards like Pristine Skywise when they're dolling out $40.
Cyclonic Rift is a bad example. It’s on the fence for banning as is for being casually problematic.
Wait wait wait
That’s a Citation needed in so many levels where’s your proof they are highly considering banning the rift?
If it was at gen con I wasn’t paying attention due to just for the preview cards
(In my defense safe bet it wasn’t just me)
I think everyone should stop and remember what their first experience of EDH was when thinking of who these decks are for. I'm not sure how many started with 2011, but I started there. My first deck was Zedruu (exchange.dec) which won with Storm Herd. I didn't have to worry about getting beatdown by cEDH decks because there was no such thing. Fast forward a few years, and it's easy to see how newer players are denied the experience of playing a deck out of the box and slowly tuning it to their liking. I think the best remedy as someone mentioned earlier would be to communicate what type of playgroup / playstyle you're sitting with and adjust accordingly. Don't play cEDH decks against new players.
I'm very curious to see how everyone ranks the Commander products. I'm sure as a community we'd be all over the map. It seems like reprints are the thing that people consider the most when deciding whether a product is successful. That's interesting, since I've always felt like the commanders and new cards were the most important (and I know this is just my opinion). Perhaps that's why 2018 is viewed with such a negative lens? I felt that set was 4th best behind 2011, 2013 and 2016.
You literally just said it was on the fence for being banned... implying such.
Feel free to back up and reiterate.
“On the fence” is “highly considering”? Hard to see how those to things are anywhere close to each other. Spin it how you want, I guess, but that is certainly not what I said, or implied. No need to reiterate at all.
I mean, just to clarify here. On the fence would be 50/50, no? “Highly considering” would imply there is a significantly greater than 50% chance, no? Yeah, makes sense.
I got a question regarding a card if it will ever get banned. Its about cyclonic rift. The card seems to me very powerfull being instant speed and only your opponents. There are a number of other options you have if it ever gets banned
There's some support for banning Rift among the RC/CAG, but there wasn't enough to ban it this time around.
I think everyone should stop and remember what their first experience of EDH was when thinking of who these decks are for. I'm not sure how many started with 2011, but I started there. My first deck was Zedruu (exchange.dec) which won with Storm Herd. I didn't have to worry about getting beatdown by cEDH decks because there was no such thing. Fast forward a few years, and it's easy to see how newer players are denied the experience of playing a deck out of the box and slowly tuning it to their liking. I think the best remedy as someone mentioned earlier would be to communicate what type of playgroup / playstyle you're sitting with and adjust accordingly. Don't play cEDH decks against new players.
I'm very curious to see how everyone ranks the Commander products. I'm sure as a community we'd be all over the map. It seems like reprints are the thing that people consider the most when deciding whether a product is successful. That's interesting, since I've always felt like the commanders and new cards were the most important (and I know this is just my opinion). Perhaps that's why 2018 is viewed with such a negative lens? I felt that set was 4th best behind 2011, 2013 and 2016.
The issue is that the game has enough cards as is that people need for commander decks and reprinting cards that are basically replaceable bulk is not helping the commander community. Commander players love new cards, but they also want old cards that are not readily available. Every single blasted reprint in this set felt like it was from some massively opened set in the last two years, when the cards people need are things like Cyclonic Rift, Chromatic Lantern, allied pain lands, Mana Echoes, Sylvan Tutor, Cruel Tutor, etc.
Basically, they are saving anything with even the smell of a high secondary market price now for premium products. That is what is killing everything else.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think everyone should stop and remember what their first experience of EDH was when thinking of who these decks are for. I'm not sure how many started with 2011, but I started there. My first deck was Zedruu (exchange.dec) which won with Storm Herd. I didn't have to worry about getting beatdown by cEDH decks because there was no such thing. Fast forward a few years, and it's easy to see how newer players are denied the experience of playing a deck out of the box and slowly tuning it to their liking. I think the best remedy as someone mentioned earlier would be to communicate what type of playgroup / playstyle you're sitting with and adjust accordingly. Don't play cEDH decks against new players.
I'm very curious to see how everyone ranks the Commander products. I'm sure as a community we'd be all over the map. It seems like reprints are the thing that people consider the most when deciding whether a product is successful. That's interesting, since I've always felt like the commanders and new cards were the most important (and I know this is just my opinion). Perhaps that's why 2018 is viewed with such a negative lens? I felt that set was 4th best behind 2011, 2013 and 2016.
The issue is that the game has enough cards as is that people need for commander decks and reprinting cards that are basically replaceable bulk is not helping the commander community. Commander players love new cards, but they also want old cards that are not readily available. Every single blasted reprint in this set felt like it was from some massively opened set in the last two years, when the cards people need are things like Cyclonic Rift, Chromatic Lantern, allied pain lands, Mana Echoes, Sylvan Tutor, Cruel Tutor, etc.
Basically, they are saving anything with even the smell of a high secondary market price now for premium products. That is what is killing everything else.
Tutors, specifically the good ones, are never going to find their way into a precon, expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for disappointment. And why would we get Mana Echoes? Any particular reason to include a tribal card in a set without tribal support? And I already said my piece on C.Rift.
I mean, this is a premium product. Getting reprinted here isn’t going drive prices down anymore than they would if they were printed in a masters set. Beyond that, people will just buy these and re-sell them way over the MSRP, robbing the target audience of getting their hands on the “needed reprints to compete”, which is just so damn funny that people actually think that.
I know I wasn't expecting a full morph deck. Then again, it would have been wasted on me as I already own a full morph deck, so I will just buy the new morph singles.
Private Mod Note
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Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I think everyone should stop and remember what their first experience of EDH was when thinking of who these decks are for. I'm not sure how many started with 2011, but I started there. My first deck was Zedruu (exchange.dec) which won with Storm Herd. I didn't have to worry about getting beatdown by cEDH decks because there was no such thing. Fast forward a few years, and it's easy to see how newer players are denied the experience of playing a deck out of the box and slowly tuning it to their liking. I think the best remedy as someone mentioned earlier would be to communicate what type of playgroup / playstyle you're sitting with and adjust accordingly. Don't play cEDH decks against new players.
I'm very curious to see how everyone ranks the Commander products. I'm sure as a community we'd be all over the map. It seems like reprints are the thing that people consider the most when deciding whether a product is successful. That's interesting, since I've always felt like the commanders and new cards were the most important (and I know this is just my opinion). Perhaps that's why 2018 is viewed with such a negative lens? I felt that set was 4th best behind 2011, 2013 and 2016.
The issue is that the game has enough cards as is that people need for commander decks and reprinting cards that are basically replaceable bulk is not helping the commander community. Commander players love new cards, but they also want old cards that are not readily available. Every single blasted reprint in this set felt like it was from some massively opened set in the last two years, when the cards people need are things like Cyclonic Rift, Chromatic Lantern, allied pain lands, Mana Echoes, Sylvan Tutor, Cruel Tutor, etc.
Basically, they are saving anything with even the smell of a high secondary market price now for premium products. That is what is killing everything else.
Tutors, specifically the good ones, are never going to find their way into a precon, expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for disappointment. And why would we get Mana Echoes? Any particular reason to include a tribal card in a set without tribal support? And I already said my piece on C.Rift.
I mean, this is a premium product. Getting reprinted here isn’t going drive prices down anymore than they would if they were printed in a masters set. Beyond that, people will just buy these and re-sell them way over the MSRP, robbing the target audience of getting their hands on the “needed reprints to compete”, which is just so damn funny that people actually think that.
They are examples, not hardline includes in the decks, of what constitutes a good reprint.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
these things do push prices down, not to believe that is a little ridiculous.
those were some good examples of things in need of reprints, there's even more out there. there's just so much thats reprintable in the 20-40 dollar range that just isn't being printed. players don't necessarily NEED these cards to succeed, but at least try to find things to include that are similar.
these things are nowhere near competitive. i don't mean table crushing when i say competitive. i mean they struggle in casual pods. every time these release we have a few kids show up with them right out of box. we pick our most casual decks, we pull our punches, we give them the game... they still lose. then they never come back. these things really need to have a fighting chance right out of the box. every single year now its the same collection of generic reprints that we've seen every year. the real meat goes higher in price. no one is asking for more thran dynamos. these things shouldn't be built for turns 1-5, but they also shouldn't be built for turns 10-15 either. they're never cohesive enough, never strong enough, the reprints are no longer enticing enough. the big game winning spells that they're crammed full of are very easily stopped.
every year we see a bunch of high costed stuff either created for these, or jammed into them. stop and think about how often you actually see any of those cards ever get played. ever. even in your more casual groups.
think to yourself, if these didn't have any new cards in them at all, would you even bother? would you recommend them to anyone looking to get into edh? the answer is most likely no. that makes it a trash product instead of a good way to get into the format, or supplement your collection.
honestly, i think they should just discontinue these and stop going out of their way to design cards for edh. just design cards for standard sets. edh will figure it out. that's what use to make it fun anyway.
They are examples, not hardline includes in the decks, of what constitutes a good reprint.
If they're not hardline includes, then their exclusion shouldn't be a very big deal.
At least most of the disappointed folks actually care about the presence or absence of reasonable cards to see in this caliber of product, unlike the poor fools who pinned their hopes and dreams for fetchland reprints on this product as some sort of modern vehicle.
This argument is why infect is so good in Commander and why so many people want the EDH-infect rules to change.
I think since most of you are Americans, I will try the “Founding Fathers” angle:
The first EDH decks ran the five Elder Dragon Legends. A few of them weren’t even considered good by 1994 standards, let alone today’s standards. Yet decks were still made. When 2011 gave us the first Commander decks, people who wanted original commanders probably didn’t have Legends or Chronicles cards, they might have had Kamigawa block, and we all remember how many of those legends were. Others used Anowon, the Ruin Sage, an oppressive vampire tribal commander.
Would Anowon roflstomp most of the five Elder Dragon Legends and Gen 1 WotC Commanders from the first Commander set? Yes. Would it be fair to throw a Anowon tribal deck with Damnation, No Mercy, and Nirkana Revenant? Of course not.
Would you have a proper duel with a flintlock pistol and an ingram (automatic pistol)? No.
That was back then. It has been eight years. The creatures are even more powerful, legends especially. That would mean every set, from Commander 2011 all the way to Commander 2019 would need to be stronger than the previous release, because eight years of collective research has been made. Just look at Command Zone, Commander’s Quarters (we’ll come back to that one), and EDHRec.
The problem with creating precons that much stronger than the last set means causal people with those decks can’t play without substantially modifying those decks to stand a chance against THE NEW PRECONS. Which means all the great decks will 100% NEED to take pieces of the newest precons to remain viable. Constantly printing cards that are strictly better is the definition of power creep.
To step away from this example and assuming Americans still watch anime, take Goku from the original Dragon Ball series. Master Roshi trained Goku so well that he knew Goku would probably win his first World Martial Arts tournament. If Goku did this, there would be nowhere else Goku would feel he would need to go in this part of his life, so his quest to become a better fighter would end there, in his first year. Thus Roshi disguises himself as “Jackie Chun” and defeats Goku, preserving that drive to become better.
Which gets us back to EDHRec and commanders quarters. A fresh new player who has never played a game of ____ should seldom have a chance of playing a tournament-regular-player. This isn’t poker. This is not candy land. I have watched kids botch moves in Magic, checkers, chess, poker, chopsticks, connect four, tic tac toe, etc. I know tricks, tactics, maneuvers, bluffs, etc, that they do not know, that are not in the basic rules. The issue with magic is that is longer than a game of poker, so giving newbies a game or two with kiddie gloves and then testing their might for real is not typically something we, nor they can afford timewise.
What we can do is:
Not play our best deck.
Telegraph correct actions to/for them. For example “I am attacking, before you block do you have a spell you can use to kill my creature?” Or “I end my turn, leaving 9 islands untapped in case I need to respond to anything with instants on other people’s turns.” And especially “I do X, which triggers your card that has a ‘may’ ability. Are you going to do it?”
Let the newbie, if trustworthy, use one of your decent decks instead.
Point them towards EDHRec, Commander’s Quarters (budget is important for new players), and even offering to go through their deck and collection to see what should be swapped in and out. Do note that you should never use this opportunity to trade with the person, use the allure of trade for next time.
It was hard for me to get into Commander. I first made my deck with conspiracies, and then it sat and did nothing (it had no ramp or card draw). After seeing me suck heartedly one of the players told me “so and so over there also has a Jund deck, you should talk to them and see what they recommend. It turns out my trade binder had a lot of what my deck needed and I had overlooked utility for my theme. I now have over ten Commander decks and it all started because my precon that I tried to tweak was even worse than the precon and an experienced player took five minutes to point me in the right direction.
So point newbies in the right direction. Be it tactics or cards or cards on a budget. We as players also have the power to help keep other players playing by being good sports. The Newbies don’t have to win, they only have to believe they can.
If you don’t believe me, ask yourself how casinos work.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Eternal witness has been reprinted. A lot.
Rhystic Study slows games down too much but is not game breaking enough to ban, thus will never probably be reprinted. Aura shards is actually REALLY powerful and powerful one Mycosynth Lattice away from being degenerate. I think the power level of Toxic Deluge is kind of high too, which is why they may be on the fence about reprinting it.
Honestly not sure why all the talismans weren’t reprinted at once instead of selectively.
I think Thought Vessel was supposed to be replaced by Reliquary Tower. Yes, I understand the importance of mana rocks, I am just saying from an R&D standpoint. It is the same reason we will never get another printing of spellbook.
Honestly, I'm thinking about getting both the Morph and Madness decks (something I did not think I'd be saying when these were released), stripping the Madness deck for parts as I've NEVER had a rakdos deck and then using the morph deck either entirely precon as is or slightly upgraded to be my low power tables deck.
I got the whole set on pre-order before the spoilers were sent out. Right now the initial supply is really low for some reason so prices are climbing to 160-170 a set with people getting orders cancelled. I don't see this set doing better than commander 2018, so if anyone wants to buy the set, please look at the prices on the secondary market for the majority of the cards in those sets now. I'm 100% sure if people just sit and wait, the prices are going to basically collapse on all the commander decks except maybe two cards or something. It's really bad.
The thing is people can argue all they want on the side of justifying the lack of proper value cards. There has to be value based cards in the set that are a known quantity for a commander product to be successful. Commander 2015 and 2016 were excellent sets and they kept selling to the point of being very scarce late season. Commander 2018 was stuck on the shelves for up to probably 2 months ago. Think about that before stepping into buying a commander 2019 deck at inflated prices because WoTC and distributors screwed up.
This really is complete crap. Sorry, but WoTC basically carted Gavin out to showcase Seedborn Muse, knowing that people would then assume they would have at least something on par with commander 2017 this season, and then they gave us absolute garbage after pre-orders were already done. No one should trust Wizards of the Coast on anything they say about a product after this point. They've done this way too much and they do know about the secondary market and the value the cards have on a product. Otherwise, they wouldn't have ever made the Modern Masters series and created the concept that "modern" means "premium" as a product.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This set has been a disappointment but at least the nonlegendary exclusives are better than last year. :/
Also on the matter of Staples, I play plenty of blue decks without Rift and green without seedborn, black without tutors, etc. Imo a powerful, synergistic deck doesn't need color Staples to succeed but it may take a bit of knowledge and skill that most new players don't have. Giving them staples like Rift will allow them to swing the board out of nowhere because people downplayed their/deck's ability. They might help compensate for their mistakes but that isn't technically a solution as I've seen Staples played incorrectly an innumerable amount of times.
Anyways, I want to get at least one of these so I can play with my friend brand new to the game bc my decks are too powerful for him and he has few playable cards. (not necessarily competitive cards) This will help him understand the importance of a mana base and interaction as well as drawing cards and synergies. I will admit a solo player may find this hard to play with against non preconsm
I think everyone should stop and remember what their first experience of EDH was when thinking of who these decks are for.
Buying the Kaalia precon and getting manhandled by Erayo because cEDH already existed in 2011.
Then I bought Mimeoplasm for an all precons tournament, won and afterwards won a casual table because the power of that deck was heads and shoulders above the rest with multiple ways to have a 2-3HK Mimeoplasm, good fixing, good removal, good card advantage, and a couple functional alternative wincons everything C18 and C19 lack. Some of that power were in the awesome new cards, but a lot of it were on the reprints that were at the time (relatively, MtG in general was cheaper back then) expensive because they hadn't been reprinted in a while like Grave Pact, Eternal Witness, Solemn Simulacrum, Lightning Greaves, Living Death and of course the $20 Sol Ring. Yes, with CMD they gave us a vintage staple that was among the most expensive non-standard, non-rl cards at the time. Now we have to be grateful they reprinted one $8 card they had just reprinted a couple months ago in Seedborn Muse.
If I had come back to MtG with C18 instead of CMD, I would not have hanged on. And C19 doesn't look much better for new players. Losing to learn is part of gaming, but realizing you got fooled into buying a product that was supossedly meant to let you get into the game but instead 80% of it is useless crap that stores have in their penny bins by the ton is not encouraging.
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I think mtg still lacks a good intro format. Standard is easier to learn, but there's no "casual standard" really. Eternal formats have enormous card pools that are impossible to follow. Limited is probably the best option, but it has a lot of skills to master that don't exist in other formats, so it's kind of overkill if you're trying to graduate to standard or commander.
I think that's what brawl is supposed to be - commander casualness but with a lower barrier to entry.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Edgar, Meren, Freyalise and Daretti had a semblance of a fair game. Arahbo, Atraxa, Breya, Ydris, Ob and Mimeoplasm could win but they were notoriously disadvantaged. The rest couldn't win even a pdh table unless they were pitied or ignored. The sultai and jeskai decks this year look like they're joining that club.
As much as some people whine about C16/C17 and their "many flaws", the people who got into EDH with those precons had a much easier time fitting into a playgroup's ecosystem. This year the only one that looks to have a clear and relatively easy path to LGS playable is the BR one. If you want to take a couple years to slowly make your deck playable while cementing your role as the local punching bag or are starting the game with three friends who all pick a deck and will not play outside of your kitchen table, the other three decks are perfectly fine. But I doubt the people in those situations make a much larger slice of the community than cEDH players. So why not make the ONE product a year the EDH community gets actually fit the needs to the larger EDH community?
"It's not for you" stops meaning ***** when it's said about every product and to what seems to be every player.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Is it a bust
Not even close
It may still be nothing compared to all the decks before C18 but they did much better new cards and reprints that both newbies and pro players can get
And I do want to mention the fact that they are aimed at newbies rather than pros the pro factor is changing a deck to their prospective and certain reprints
Minor prediction I think K’rrick might end up as the second mono commander to hit the 1000 zone you can easily do a quick win with him
It may not amount to much, but Maro did ask people on his Tumblr if they were interested in a draft set designed with Commander in mind. We might see something like this next year, or maybe the year after if the idea was well received.
With that being said the people arguing for more valuable reprints in these precons do have a point, putting in a better set of staples that fit the theme of the deck (ex. signets over lockets) and 1-2 mid value reprints and 1-2 higher value ($20 range) cards that fit the themes of the decks would be a welcome addition especially for newer players when those cards may be out of their reach when starting. That doesn't mean that everything put in the deck that is a reprint should be a staple. Basic staples that should be included in any precon are sol ring, commander sphere for 2+ color decks, lightning greaves for decks that want to focus on either attacking or commander damage, command tower for 2+ color decks, signets for 2+ color decks, and some (2-3) staples of each color for those decks that help fit the theme of the precon they are going in.
As for the whole new player being the punching bag argument the way I see it is this: those players are new to the game and just learning and it is common knowledge that they are using a premade product that is about mid level in terms of power and they may not have made any upgrades to it yet and I'm not saying take it easy on them, but the other players should adjust accordingly instead of being jerks and just wailing on them with their tuned/cEDH decks because that kills enthusiasm for the game for those players. Its also important for older players to foster an environment where people understand this, granted its not always possible, but it should be attempted. I know at my lgs there are quite a few people that like to build over powered decks and like to think of themselves as cEDH palyers and I don't like playing with them because they are not interested in playing just a 6-8 power level deck and having a casual game. They are in it to win it and win as fast as possible and that is boring to me, but its fun to them, that being said there aren't any other local play groups in the area that play more casually so my options are to either stick with them and adjust (which I can't because of cost, its just very out of my price range) or to just not play with them and attempt to find a new play group. That being said that lgs is not very friendly towards newer players most of the time, especially younger players interested in starting the game. It is pretty much an assumption that if you sit down to play mtg in any format at that store that you are an experienced player unless you are playing with all new players that you either brought with you are met recently, unless someone specifically says this is so and so and they just learned how to play commander and wanted to join us tonight then the expectation changes to: this is a newer player so they aren't very experienced and are likely going to make mistakes, but we will help them when we see it (though not always in the nicest way) and we won't go all out right from the start (except for like 2 people and thats just because they are hyper competitive and even they aren't very well liked in any of the playgroups at the LGS).
With all of that being said I think more experienced/established players should keep in mind that this product is not specifically aimed at them and that it is basically an assumption by WoTC at this point that you're either going to buy the precons or you're going to buy singles of the new cards and the reduced costed reprints that you want out of them and that newer players (the group the product is aimed towards) are going to be more likely to buy this product and use it as a starting point for getting into the format/game. Yes you have some valid complaints, but at the same time if money is the issue then you could just buy the decks and turn around and sell the reprints and new cards and make a profit and then spend that money on something that you want. If the precon with the most value is $40 msrp (about $45 after tax is added to it) and the value of the reprints alone is $75 you just made a $30 profit off the reprints alone, not including the new cards who's values will be highest (most likely) upon release or soon there after and will go up if they are highly sought after or valued cards because they will not be reprinted and as the market changes and their use either increases or decreases will stabilize somewhere between their most expensive value reached and their lowest or upper middle value reached (an example of price fluctuation would be atraxa preator's voice which started out being worth about $8 and reached peak value at around $53 and has reduced in price to a more stable $30-$40 depending on condition according to mtggoldfish.).
You have to keep in mind that WoTC doesn't know what the exact value of the new cards will be upon release or how those card prices will fluctuate in the next few months, they have an estimated value of those cards and that's all they have upon release so it would be fair to reason that the reason they don't include the more high value staples and reprints (i.e. $10-$20 range) is because of the estimated value of the newer cards and they are already providing you with a product (in most cases) that is worth more than the msrp of the product. They are also aware that LGSs are notorious for price gouging products once they know that there are very expensive reprints in precons. Look at the cost of some of the previous commander precons as an example, the cost of the atraxa deck doubled just a few months after release (granted it was because of it being a limited printing and super popular at the time) or even the Frealise or Kalia decks both of which are valued at more than double what they were at the time of release. So yes WoTC very likely does take into consideration what LGSs tend to do with high value products soon after release in order to increase their profits, some overcharge on the msrp right away pricing the product at $45 before tax which just proves my point on this.
So while complaining to WoTC can be helpful, you really shouldn't expect much from them (this is a capitalist society after all and profits come first). You should also take into consideration at who the product's target demographic is. Reprints are included for more than just adding value to the precons they are added because its cheaper and more efficient than designing a whole new set of brand new cards for 4 new decks and putting in very few reprints. They include certain reprints in order to help entice more established players into buying these products by picking cards that they think people will want, and this doesn't always work out very well for them, but keep in mind they will want to choose cards that match the theme of the deck and don't feel forced into it in order to keep their target demographic happy. Anyone who knows anything about marketing will likely tell you that when making a product to be placed on the market the needs/wants or perceived needs/wants of the target demographic come first.
I feel that I should also note that the people that designed these precons are likely not the exact same group as the ones that did the previous precons. There maybe some members that are still the same, but likely they have swapped personnel out to work on these. It should also be mentioned that of the list of things that the WoTC rep or whatever he was said likely had an order or prioritization and making the decks more on theme appears to have taken top priority. This is clearly the easiest way to make the most people happy about this years product, or at least lower the amount of disappointment overall, because again they are looking at the target demographic's reactions to last year's product.
Wait wait wait
That’s a Citation needed in so many levels where’s your proof they are highly considering banning the rift?
If it was at gen con I wasn’t paying attention due to just for the preview cards
(In my defense safe bet it wasn’t just me)
That’s not what I said.
You literally just said it was on the fence for being banned... implying such.
Feel free to back up and reiterate.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Dude.
You literally said it
So you may want to edit your message if this is not what you meant to say
I'm very curious to see how everyone ranks the Commander products. I'm sure as a community we'd be all over the map. It seems like reprints are the thing that people consider the most when deciding whether a product is successful. That's interesting, since I've always felt like the commanders and new cards were the most important (and I know this is just my opinion). Perhaps that's why 2018 is viewed with such a negative lens? I felt that set was 4th best behind 2011, 2013 and 2016.
“On the fence” is “highly considering”? Hard to see how those to things are anywhere close to each other. Spin it how you want, I guess, but that is certainly not what I said, or implied. No need to reiterate at all.
I mean, just to clarify here. On the fence would be 50/50, no? “Highly considering” would imply there is a significantly greater than 50% chance, no? Yeah, makes sense.
Thanks though.
From here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/812222-july-2019-ban-list-update?page=2#c37
Feel free to edit your replies accordingly.
The issue is that the game has enough cards as is that people need for commander decks and reprinting cards that are basically replaceable bulk is not helping the commander community. Commander players love new cards, but they also want old cards that are not readily available. Every single blasted reprint in this set felt like it was from some massively opened set in the last two years, when the cards people need are things like Cyclonic Rift, Chromatic Lantern, allied pain lands, Mana Echoes, Sylvan Tutor, Cruel Tutor, etc.
Basically, they are saving anything with even the smell of a high secondary market price now for premium products. That is what is killing everything else.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Tutors, specifically the good ones, are never going to find their way into a precon, expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for disappointment. And why would we get Mana Echoes? Any particular reason to include a tribal card in a set without tribal support? And I already said my piece on C.Rift.
I mean, this is a premium product. Getting reprinted here isn’t going drive prices down anymore than they would if they were printed in a masters set. Beyond that, people will just buy these and re-sell them way over the MSRP, robbing the target audience of getting their hands on the “needed reprints to compete”, which is just so damn funny that people actually think that.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
They are examples, not hardline includes in the decks, of what constitutes a good reprint.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
those were some good examples of things in need of reprints, there's even more out there. there's just so much thats reprintable in the 20-40 dollar range that just isn't being printed. players don't necessarily NEED these cards to succeed, but at least try to find things to include that are similar.
these things are nowhere near competitive. i don't mean table crushing when i say competitive. i mean they struggle in casual pods. every time these release we have a few kids show up with them right out of box. we pick our most casual decks, we pull our punches, we give them the game... they still lose. then they never come back. these things really need to have a fighting chance right out of the box. every single year now its the same collection of generic reprints that we've seen every year. the real meat goes higher in price. no one is asking for more thran dynamos. these things shouldn't be built for turns 1-5, but they also shouldn't be built for turns 10-15 either. they're never cohesive enough, never strong enough, the reprints are no longer enticing enough. the big game winning spells that they're crammed full of are very easily stopped.
every year we see a bunch of high costed stuff either created for these, or jammed into them. stop and think about how often you actually see any of those cards ever get played. ever. even in your more casual groups.
think to yourself, if these didn't have any new cards in them at all, would you even bother? would you recommend them to anyone looking to get into edh? the answer is most likely no. that makes it a trash product instead of a good way to get into the format, or supplement your collection.
honestly, i think they should just discontinue these and stop going out of their way to design cards for edh. just design cards for standard sets. edh will figure it out. that's what use to make it fun anyway.
If they're not hardline includes, then their exclusion shouldn't be a very big deal.
At least most of the disappointed folks actually care about the presence or absence of reasonable cards to see in this caliber of product, unlike the poor fools who pinned their hopes and dreams for fetchland reprints on this product as some sort of modern vehicle.
I think since most of you are Americans, I will try the “Founding Fathers” angle:
The first EDH decks ran the five Elder Dragon Legends. A few of them weren’t even considered good by 1994 standards, let alone today’s standards. Yet decks were still made. When 2011 gave us the first Commander decks, people who wanted original commanders probably didn’t have Legends or Chronicles cards, they might have had Kamigawa block, and we all remember how many of those legends were. Others used Anowon, the Ruin Sage, an oppressive vampire tribal commander.
Would Anowon roflstomp most of the five Elder Dragon Legends and Gen 1 WotC Commanders from the first Commander set? Yes. Would it be fair to throw a Anowon tribal deck with Damnation, No Mercy, and Nirkana Revenant? Of course not.
Would you have a proper duel with a flintlock pistol and an ingram (automatic pistol)? No.
That was back then. It has been eight years. The creatures are even more powerful, legends especially. That would mean every set, from Commander 2011 all the way to Commander 2019 would need to be stronger than the previous release, because eight years of collective research has been made. Just look at Command Zone, Commander’s Quarters (we’ll come back to that one), and EDHRec.
The problem with creating precons that much stronger than the last set means causal people with those decks can’t play without substantially modifying those decks to stand a chance against THE NEW PRECONS. Which means all the great decks will 100% NEED to take pieces of the newest precons to remain viable. Constantly printing cards that are strictly better is the definition of power creep.
To step away from this example and assuming Americans still watch anime, take Goku from the original Dragon Ball series. Master Roshi trained Goku so well that he knew Goku would probably win his first World Martial Arts tournament. If Goku did this, there would be nowhere else Goku would feel he would need to go in this part of his life, so his quest to become a better fighter would end there, in his first year. Thus Roshi disguises himself as “Jackie Chun” and defeats Goku, preserving that drive to become better.
Which gets us back to EDHRec and commanders quarters. A fresh new player who has never played a game of ____ should seldom have a chance of playing a tournament-regular-player. This isn’t poker. This is not candy land. I have watched kids botch moves in Magic, checkers, chess, poker, chopsticks, connect four, tic tac toe, etc. I know tricks, tactics, maneuvers, bluffs, etc, that they do not know, that are not in the basic rules. The issue with magic is that is longer than a game of poker, so giving newbies a game or two with kiddie gloves and then testing their might for real is not typically something we, nor they can afford timewise.
What we can do is:
Not play our best deck.
Telegraph correct actions to/for them. For example “I am attacking, before you block do you have a spell you can use to kill my creature?” Or “I end my turn, leaving 9 islands untapped in case I need to respond to anything with instants on other people’s turns.” And especially “I do X, which triggers your card that has a ‘may’ ability. Are you going to do it?”
Let the newbie, if trustworthy, use one of your decent decks instead.
Point them towards EDHRec, Commander’s Quarters (budget is important for new players), and even offering to go through their deck and collection to see what should be swapped in and out. Do note that you should never use this opportunity to trade with the person, use the allure of trade for next time.
It was hard for me to get into Commander. I first made my deck with conspiracies, and then it sat and did nothing (it had no ramp or card draw). After seeing me suck heartedly one of the players told me “so and so over there also has a Jund deck, you should talk to them and see what they recommend. It turns out my trade binder had a lot of what my deck needed and I had overlooked utility for my theme. I now have over ten Commander decks and it all started because my precon that I tried to tweak was even worse than the precon and an experienced player took five minutes to point me in the right direction.
So point newbies in the right direction. Be it tactics or cards or cards on a budget. We as players also have the power to help keep other players playing by being good sports. The Newbies don’t have to win, they only have to believe they can.
If you don’t believe me, ask yourself how casinos work.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Rhystic Study slows games down too much but is not game breaking enough to ban, thus will never probably be reprinted. Aura shards is actually REALLY powerful and powerful one Mycosynth Lattice away from being degenerate. I think the power level of Toxic Deluge is kind of high too, which is why they may be on the fence about reprinting it.
Honestly not sure why all the talismans weren’t reprinted at once instead of selectively.
I think Thought Vessel was supposed to be replaced by Reliquary Tower. Yes, I understand the importance of mana rocks, I am just saying from an R&D standpoint. It is the same reason we will never get another printing of spellbook.
The thing is people can argue all they want on the side of justifying the lack of proper value cards. There has to be value based cards in the set that are a known quantity for a commander product to be successful. Commander 2015 and 2016 were excellent sets and they kept selling to the point of being very scarce late season. Commander 2018 was stuck on the shelves for up to probably 2 months ago. Think about that before stepping into buying a commander 2019 deck at inflated prices because WoTC and distributors screwed up.
This really is complete crap. Sorry, but WoTC basically carted Gavin out to showcase Seedborn Muse, knowing that people would then assume they would have at least something on par with commander 2017 this season, and then they gave us absolute garbage after pre-orders were already done. No one should trust Wizards of the Coast on anything they say about a product after this point. They've done this way too much and they do know about the secondary market and the value the cards have on a product. Otherwise, they wouldn't have ever made the Modern Masters series and created the concept that "modern" means "premium" as a product.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This set has been a disappointment but at least the nonlegendary exclusives are better than last year. :/
Also on the matter of Staples, I play plenty of blue decks without Rift and green without seedborn, black without tutors, etc. Imo a powerful, synergistic deck doesn't need color Staples to succeed but it may take a bit of knowledge and skill that most new players don't have. Giving them staples like Rift will allow them to swing the board out of nowhere because people downplayed their/deck's ability. They might help compensate for their mistakes but that isn't technically a solution as I've seen Staples played incorrectly an innumerable amount of times.
Anyways, I want to get at least one of these so I can play with my friend brand new to the game bc my decks are too powerful for him and he has few playable cards. (not necessarily competitive cards) This will help him understand the importance of a mana base and interaction as well as drawing cards and synergies. I will admit a solo player may find this hard to play with against non preconsm
Then I bought Mimeoplasm for an all precons tournament, won and afterwards won a casual table because the power of that deck was heads and shoulders above the rest with multiple ways to have a 2-3HK Mimeoplasm, good fixing, good removal, good card advantage, and a couple functional alternative wincons everything C18 and C19 lack. Some of that power were in the awesome new cards, but a lot of it were on the reprints that were at the time (relatively, MtG in general was cheaper back then) expensive because they hadn't been reprinted in a while like Grave Pact, Eternal Witness, Solemn Simulacrum, Lightning Greaves, Living Death and of course the $20 Sol Ring. Yes, with CMD they gave us a vintage staple that was among the most expensive non-standard, non-rl cards at the time. Now we have to be grateful they reprinted one $8 card they had just reprinted a couple months ago in Seedborn Muse.
If I had come back to MtG with C18 instead of CMD, I would not have hanged on. And C19 doesn't look much better for new players. Losing to learn is part of gaming, but realizing you got fooled into buying a product that was supossedly meant to let you get into the game but instead 80% of it is useless crap that stores have in their penny bins by the ton is not encouraging.