Well, unless the caster has a card on top that the opponent can never beat, the opponent just flips through his/her deck until he/she hits a card that at least ties it and breaks the cycle, winning the game in the process. If, however, the caster has a card on top like, say, Plague Wind, and the opponent is playing a weenie deck that has no cards over CMC 2, then the caster could basically send the game into a state where the spell effect would never resolve, resulting in a draw.
Wouldn't the "Game State" be checked in between Clashes thus the "Fatal Clash" would resolve and the last known game state would be checked realizing that the conditions have been met to "Reclash" while similtaniously realizing that a Player reached "Fatal Life"?
Wouldn't the "Game State" be checked in between Clashes thus the "Fatal Clash" would resolve and the last known game state would be checked realizing that the conditions have been met to "Reclash" while similtaniously realizing that a Player reached "Fatal Life"?
Nope. State-based conditions are only checked while nothing is resolving.
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Wouldn't the "Game State" be checked in between Clashes thus the "Fatal Clash" would resolve and the last known game state would be checked realizing that the conditions have been met to "Reclash" while similtaniously realizing that a Player reached "Fatal Life"?
Hoarder's Greed is resolving. It doesn't recur triggered abilities or anything; it just... keeps doing something. SBEs don't bud in.
"Repeat this process" abilities all act like that.
Also, Hivemaster, you may have misread Rebellion of the Flamekin. You get the token only if you pay :1mana:; it has haste if you won (the clash).
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Wouldn't the "Game State" be checked in between Clashes thus the "Fatal Clash" would resolve and the last known game state would be checked realizing that the conditions have been met to "Reclash" while similtaniously realizing that a Player reached "Fatal Life"?
Game state is not checked during the resolution of a spell. In the example, game state would only be checked when Hoarder's Greed finishes resolving, which in such case it never will.
I don't believe it'd result in a draw though, as it's not a truely definative infinite repeating cycle. The movements may repeat, but the outcome is not set and changes may occur within the resolution (like the card revealed, and whether a player puts a card underneath or ontop of their deck).
I'm not fully clear on the exact specific wording for the infinite loop draw clause, so if an actual judge would care to comment... or I can just go grab it from the binder of comprehensive rules sitting on my desk.
It's not a matter of the infinite loop rules. As you correctly pointed out, there is a potentially variable decision made in each iteration. However, there is no point where the person who played Hoarder's Greed is forced to put the top card of his library on the bottom. So if his top card is greater in CMC than any card in his opponent's deck, then by keeping it there he has guaranteed that the spell can never resolve. Once the opponent's deck has been fully revealed by enough clashes and this is confirmed, or if the opponent decides to forever leave his less-CMC card on top, then it is 100% certain that the spell will never resolve. As such, there's nothing that can be done except declare it a draw.
Once you've gone through the entire opponent's deck, showing they can no longer win, I would think would be covered under 421.2:
421.2. If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.
You have an infinite loop that will continue indefinitely so long as Player A continues to take the same optional action. As such, I would think this would apply. Then, as soon as they flip over the next card on a clash, you would cycle through Player B's deck again and either lose at some point or reach the same point again.
The reason why I use the "one player controls them all" portion is because once you've revealed your opponent's entire deck, they effectively have no more input on the loop, and need only state that every clash they will simply put the revealed card back on top of their library.
Even after the caster hits 0 life, the game can't end due to state-based effects until the Greed finishes resolving by the caster not winning a clash.
Do the action loop rules apply here, given that there's hidden information involved?
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Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Malaren of the Mornsong
Hoarder's Greed
Rebellion of the Flame-Kin
Angel's Grace
Flame-Kin Harbinger (to topdeck an 8-drop)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
Nope. State-based conditions are only checked while nothing is resolving.
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Hoarder's Greed is resolving. It doesn't recur triggered abilities or anything; it just... keeps doing something. SBEs don't bud in.
"Repeat this process" abilities all act like that.
Also, Hivemaster, you may have misread Rebellion of the Flamekin. You get the token only if you pay :1mana:; it has haste if you won (the clash).
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Game state is not checked during the resolution of a spell. In the example, game state would only be checked when Hoarder's Greed finishes resolving, which in such case it never will.
I'm not fully clear on the exact specific wording for the infinite loop draw clause, so if an actual judge would care to comment... or I can just go grab it from the binder of comprehensive rules sitting on my desk.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
421.2. If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.
You have an infinite loop that will continue indefinitely so long as Player A continues to take the same optional action. As such, I would think this would apply. Then, as soon as they flip over the next card on a clash, you would cycle through Player B's deck again and either lose at some point or reach the same point again.
The reason why I use the "one player controls them all" portion is because once you've revealed your opponent's entire deck, they effectively have no more input on the loop, and need only state that every clash they will simply put the revealed card back on top of their library.
If you have a Lich out though...
R Supa' Fly Crusha' Sligh R
B Suicide Black B
H/W LIST
Angel's Grace anyone?
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