Lets say you play a instant or sorcery for its prowl cost, say like Notorious Throng. If i use a copying effect like Twincast or Sigil Tracer's effect will the spell be 'prowled' or not, that is to say would i get the bonus effects of the spell being played for its prowl cost?
My position is NO.
Here's why:
similairly to how you can't have paid a W for Court Hussar if it is somehow played without playing it's mana cost, the twincast doesn't play the copy with prowl, heck, the copy doesn't even get played, much less through prowl.
well, one distinct difference between prowl and kicker, is that one is an alternative cost and the other is an additional cost, respectively. Also be careful about calling kicker modal. Modal means something specific in Magic:
Quote from CompRules »
Modal, Mode
A spell or ability is modal if it is written “Choose one —,” “Choose two —,” or “[a specified player]
chooses one —.” Modal spells and abilities offer a choice of effects. A modal spell or ability’s controller
must choose the mode(s) as part of playing the spell or ability or as part of putting the ability on the stack
(in the case of triggered abilities); see rule 409.1b. If a mode has targets, a player can’t choose that mode
unless all of its targets can be chosen. A modal replacement effect’s mode is chosen as it’s applied; see rule
419.6g.
to expand further:
Quote from Also the CompRules »
503.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics (name, mana cost, color, card type, supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text,
power, toughness, loyalty) and, for an object on the stack, choices made when playing it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will affect multiple targets, and so
on). The “copiable values” are the values that are printed on the object, as modified by other copy
effects, by “as . . . comes into play” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics,
and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and
text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
Note that "being played through some alternate cost" is not listed there.
But both say " if you paid the ~ cost" respectively, and i believe if you copy a kicked spell you get the whole deal too, so is that the same with prowl?
the point i am trying to make, is that because the copy is put directly onto the stack, it was never "prowled," and that having been "prowled" is not a copiable value. I do not dispute the fact that the copy will have the ability, "If the prowl cost was paid do X"
I have to agree- copying a Prowled spell will get you any variable bonuses you might net from playing a prowled spell (such as Notorious Throng), providing that the mechanism that copied the spell puts your copy directly onto the stack (such as with Twincast, Sigil Tracer, etc) and the copy target has been successfully played by paying its Prowl cost. Part of copying a spell is that you copy any copyable effects specific to the card so long as nothing you do would change one of those elements. Part B of this is that if an opponent plays a spell with a variable Prowl benefit, but has not dealt damage with an appropriate creature type this turn, you do not gain the Prowl benefit even if you have. This is due to the specific wording of Prowl- the additional effect of the card is triggered when the alternate casting cost is paid, which is before anyone has priority to copy it. Thus, by the time either player receives priority, the "Prowl" alternate condition has been met and that part of the card effect is set in stone.
Accordingly, if whatever effect you use to copy the spell (such as Panoptic Mirror) requires you to play the spell, pr generates a copy to go onto the stack with no original that has had its Prowl cost paid (i.e., "Copy target/imprinted spell. You may play it without paying it's mana cost."), you have no opportunity to gain the benefit from Prowl, even if you have successfully dealt damage with an appropriate creature type this turn.
The average lion is approximately 190 cm long and 60 cm wide = 11400 cm2 = 0.00000114 km2
Now, if we take that times a trillion we get 11,400,000 km2 of lion.
This may not quite be related, but what if I had thrumming stone in play and played a spell with storm? Would all of the storm copies also have Ripple? It seems like they would, because they are copying the spell,. which is now modified to have ripple.
I do, however, see why the copy wouldn't have the prowled extra ability.
Valonus, the answer to your question is no. Thrumming Stone is a triggered effect that triggers when you play a spell. When the Storm trigger resolves, it puts copies of itself directly on the stack. Thus, those copies do not trigger the Stone.
The average lion is approximately 190 cm long and 60 cm wide = 11400 cm2 = 0.00000114 km2
Now, if we take that times a trillion we get 11,400,000 km2 of lion.
if you could see that thrumming stone would modify your spell with ripple and that each copy would in turn have ripple(which it won't since you are not "playing" those spells) how can a prowled spell not have its bonus effect when copied? From the rules it states it copies all parts, including which way the spell was played( as in paying kicker or buyback), so a Twincasted Prowled Throng should net you tokens plus the turn, right?
* Some prowl cards have comes-into-play abilities or additional effects if their prowl costs were paid. You'll get them if you played the card by paying its prowl cost rather than its normal mana cost.
emphasis mine
Notorius Throng is an example of one of these cards.
since twincast puts a copy on the stack and does not play it, no extra effects.
I'm given to understand that a copy of a spell remembers a lot of things. However, it does not remember what kind of mana was spent to play the original spell, and how that spell was played. It's like the ravnica "enhanced" spells (seed spark, for example). When twincast, it doesn't remember that you paid W for the original copy, the twincasted copy was payed for free.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
since twincast puts a copy on the stack and does not play it, no extra effects.
Under the current rules, if you played a spell with kicker and chose to pay the kicker cost, the copy created by Twincast would be treated as if you chose to pay its kicker cost. The reason being is that whether you pay the kicker cost or not is a choice you make when you play the spell. That choice is copied when the copy is created. In addition to 503.2, you also want to look at 503.10.
It is very possible that instants and sorceries with prowl will function the same. Because prowl represents an alternative cost that you choose to use instead of the normal mana cost. Choosing to use the cost to play the spell is a choice that is likely copied to the copy created by Twincast. Which means the copy would get the "extra effect" from prowl.
It's probably a bit of odd wording within the rules, but paying a certain cost (additional, alternative, etc.) is really part choice to pay that cost and actually paying the cost. It's the choice (which occurs in 413.2b) that's being copied, not whether you actually paid the cost (which really just becomes part of the total cost to play the spell, see 409.1f). Cards like Court Hussar are different, in the actually look at the mana that was spent to play the spell, and aren't a "choice" per se. There's actually a bit of a technical difference there.
503.10. To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell or ability isn't "played." A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made when it was played, including mode, targets, the value of X, and optional additional costs such as buyback. (See rule 409, "Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.") Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player who controlled the spell or ability that created it. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player who put it on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
That line should allow for the prowl effects to be used by the copy as if it'd been played using prowl.
Damn, your right, because I'm not actually playing the copies, the Ripple on each of the copies wouldn't trigger. But each of the copies would have ripple, because they are a copy of a spell that has ripple, it just wont do them any good. Now my decking combo withBrain Freeze won't work.
The copies won't have the extra effect because you can't pay the prowl cost for the copies, only for the effect on the original card itself. The interaction between Prowl/copies and Ripple/copies is similar, but they don't work for different reasons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
So long argument short, Yes a copy of a prowl spell will get the prowl bonus because the additional/"kicker"/replacement/alternate cost was chosen when the prowl spell was played.
So long argument short, Yes a copy of a prowl spell will get the prowl bonus because the additional/"kicker"/replacement/alternate cost was chosen when the prowl spell was played.
I believe that is the general concensus from this thread. But we'll find out for certain after the comprehensive rules update.
If you choose to play a spell for it's "Prowl" cost while the spell is in your hand the game checks for "last known game state" information to make sure that the play is legal, while the spell is on the stack if Mirari is used to copy the spell, again the game checks for "last known game state" information and realizes that the spell on the stack was indeed played with Prowl and thus the copy is created from the "last known game state" information. The same way that if you played Profane Command with X = 10 and choosing Player loses X life, X Creatures gain Fear until EOT modes Mirari will copy X and both modes.
If you choose to play a spell for it's "Prowl" cost while the spell is in your hand the game checks for "last known game state" information to make sure that the play is legal, while the spell is on the stack if Mirari is used to copy the spell, again the game checks for "last known game state" information and realizes that the spell on the stack was indeed played with Prowl and thus the copy is created from the "last known game state" information. The same way that if you played Profane Command with X = 10 and choosing Player loses X life, X Creatures gain Fear until EOT modes Mirari will copy X and both modes.
Wow, this is so totally not an LKI situation. In fact, your answer probably has nothing to do with the situation being discussed. Prowl is not a modal ability, so relating this to Profane Command is just incorrect.
the point i am trying to make, is that because the copy is put directly onto the stack, it was never "prowled," and that having been "prowled" is not a copiable value. I do not dispute the fact that the copy will have the ability, "If the prowl cost was paid do X"
If i'm correct.. Prowl is an alternate cost, which means.. If you play something like Noggin Whackfor it's 1B cost, and play a Twincast, targeting Whack, it copies the spell.. because the 1B was paid. as an alternate cost to the spell. meaning the spell is PLAYED. so it Should be able to be copied, just like any other instant/sorcery
EDIT:
Apparently.. MTGO bugs it, because it's supposed to work as stated above in MageofDancingDragons 's Post with the rules clarification, But when Done in the client.. it Gives you the option to copy it while keeping priority, but with Sigil Tracer, when you get to the point of Tap an untapped wizard it stalls and doesn't allow you to click Ok after tapping....
EDIT: Again!
Tested It Again, With a Different Style of Copy.. Reiterate.. With and Without Buyback... I attacked with a Rogue, Frogtosser Banneret And after Combat Damage was Dealt, I Morsel Thefted Myself, and Reiterated That 3 Times... (i had plenty of mana to do so, it was a bug test in Solitare) And it Copied It perfectly. no issues AT all... So The Answer to the Original Question.. IS YES YOU CAN COPY A PROWLED SPELL!
Ravarshi Kashaku, Ancient Dragon of the Darkened Realms;
The Merciless Lord of Torture, Permanently Bound To: ">[THE PACK] 11/5/63 - 11/25/09 Goodbye mom, i'll always love you...
[/center]
Here's why:
similairly to how you can't have paid a W for Court Hussar if it is somehow played without playing it's mana cost, the twincast doesn't play the copy with prowl, heck, the copy doesn't even get played, much less through prowl.
Legacy:
GNO Elves
GChaos Elves
GBRNicFit ScapeWish
No, Mister Bond. I expect you to die.
[/center]
to expand further:
Note that "being played through some alternate cost" is not listed there.
Legacy:
GNO Elves
GChaos Elves
GBRNicFit ScapeWish
No, Mister Bond. I expect you to die.
[/center]
Legacy:
GNO Elves
GChaos Elves
GBRNicFit ScapeWish
No, Mister Bond. I expect you to die.
[/center]
Legacy:
GNO Elves
GChaos Elves
GBRNicFit ScapeWish
No, Mister Bond. I expect you to die.
Accordingly, if whatever effect you use to copy the spell (such as Panoptic Mirror) requires you to play the spell, pr generates a copy to go onto the stack with no original that has had its Prowl cost paid (i.e., "Copy target/imprinted spell. You may play it without paying it's mana cost."), you have no opportunity to gain the benefit from Prowl, even if you have successfully dealt damage with an appropriate creature type this turn.
Magnificent Quote of the day:
[/center]
I do, however, see why the copy wouldn't have the prowled extra ability.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Magnificent Quote of the day:
[/center]
emphasis mine
Notorius Throng is an example of one of these cards.
since twincast puts a copy on the stack and does not play it, no extra effects.
Legacy:
GNO Elves
GChaos Elves
GBRNicFit ScapeWish
No, Mister Bond. I expect you to die.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Under the current rules, if you played a spell with kicker and chose to pay the kicker cost, the copy created by Twincast would be treated as if you chose to pay its kicker cost. The reason being is that whether you pay the kicker cost or not is a choice you make when you play the spell. That choice is copied when the copy is created. In addition to 503.2, you also want to look at 503.10.
It is very possible that instants and sorceries with prowl will function the same. Because prowl represents an alternative cost that you choose to use instead of the normal mana cost. Choosing to use the cost to play the spell is a choice that is likely copied to the copy created by Twincast. Which means the copy would get the "extra effect" from prowl.
It's probably a bit of odd wording within the rules, but paying a certain cost (additional, alternative, etc.) is really part choice to pay that cost and actually paying the cost. It's the choice (which occurs in 413.2b) that's being copied, not whether you actually paid the cost (which really just becomes part of the total cost to play the spell, see 409.1f). Cards like Court Hussar are different, in the actually look at the mana that was spent to play the spell, and aren't a "choice" per se. There's actually a bit of a technical difference there.
That line should allow for the prowl effects to be used by the copy as if it'd been played using prowl.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
The copies won't have the extra effect because you can't pay the prowl cost for the copies, only for the effect on the original card itself. The interaction between Prowl/copies and Ripple/copies is similar, but they don't work for different reasons.
About Mindslaver rulings:
[/center]
I believe that is the general concensus from this thread. But we'll find out for certain after the comprehensive rules update.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
Wow, this is so totally not an LKI situation. In fact, your answer probably has nothing to do with the situation being discussed. Prowl is not a modal ability, so relating this to Profane Command is just incorrect.
I think that is very definitive.
If i'm correct.. Prowl is an alternate cost, which means.. If you play something like Noggin Whackfor it's 1B cost, and play a Twincast, targeting Whack, it copies the spell.. because the 1B was paid. as an alternate cost to the spell. meaning the spell is PLAYED. so it Should be able to be copied, just like any other instant/sorcery
EDIT:
Apparently.. MTGO bugs it, because it's supposed to work as stated above in MageofDancingDragons 's Post with the rules clarification, But when Done in the client.. it Gives you the option to copy it while keeping priority, but with Sigil Tracer, when you get to the point of Tap an untapped wizard it stalls and doesn't allow you to click Ok after tapping....
EDIT: Again!
Tested It Again, With a Different Style of Copy.. Reiterate.. With and Without Buyback... I attacked with a Rogue, Frogtosser Banneret And after Combat Damage was Dealt, I Morsel Thefted Myself, and Reiterated That 3 Times... (i had plenty of mana to do so, it was a bug test in Solitare) And it Copied It perfectly. no issues AT all... So The Answer to the Original Question.. IS YES YOU CAN COPY A PROWLED SPELL!
The Merciless Lord of Torture, Permanently Bound To: ">[THE PACK] 11/5/63 - 11/25/09 Goodbye mom, i'll always love you...
Tibalt & His Devils vs. Avacyn's Inquisitors
My EDH decklists