Skill Borrower
Artifact Creature - Shapeshifter
You play with the top card of your library revealed.
As long as the top card of your library is an artifact or a creature card, Skill Borrower gains all abilities of that card.
1/3
Question: What happens if I play a skill borrower, and reveal a card with a comes-into-play trigger? Since Skill Borrower's abilities are static, do they come online in time for the CIP ability to be triggered off Skill Borrower's coming into play?
Thanks,
Yaron
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If you're about to pounce on someone who said card A was "strictly better" than card B, and treat them to some convoluted counter-example, please don't.
"Strictly better" does not mean "better in every possible in-game situation."
It means "better in every possible deck, vs. every plausible meta-game."
So if you can't actually think of a deck-building situation where you'd prefer card B to card A, then please spare us the Mindslaver.
No. Skill Borrower will not trigger a comes into play ability.
Thanks for the reply!
Could you explain the reasoning that led you to it?
It seems to me that if it wasn't for that whole business with revealing the top card (say, if it borrowed skills from creatures in play), it actually would work: just like Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifter , it would come into play with those abilities, so CIP triggers would apply.
The only thing that stumps me is revealing the card. When does that happen? It's not a CIP trigger - it's a static abiliy that's always on, so wouldn't that mean it's already revealed when triggers should be put on the stack? I'm not sure how everything is timed.
Thanks again!
Yaron
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If you're about to pounce on someone who said card A was "strictly better" than card B, and treat them to some convoluted counter-example, please don't.
"Strictly better" does not mean "better in every possible in-game situation."
It means "better in every possible deck, vs. every plausible meta-game."
So if you can't actually think of a deck-building situation where you'd prefer card B to card A, then please spare us the Mindslaver.
Thanks for the reply!
Could you explain the reasoning that led you to it?
It seems to me that if it wasn't for that whole business with revealing the top card (say, if it borrowed skills from creatures in play), it actually would work: just like Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifter , it would come into play with those abilities, so CIP triggers would apply.
The only thing that stumps me is revealing the card. When does that happen? It's not a CIP trigger - it's a static abiliy that's always on, so wouldn't that mean it's already revealed when triggers should be put on the stack? I'm not sure how everything is timed.
Thanks again!
Yaron
It has to be in play before it's ability works, which means when its coming into play it won't be working. Once it does work, you've missed your chance.
I believe that Skill Borrower can trigger CITP abilities off the revealed card. When a permanent enters play, it is checked for relevant CITP abilities (after it enters play). At this point the Borrower will have all abilities of the revealed card, due it its continous effect. So if you're running it in a deck with Nekrataal, you might want to be aware of what you might turn up.
Quote from Comp. Rules »
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this object] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
410.1b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Either way, I'm sure that if you had 2 Borrowers out you'd get the CIP ability of the most recent one to enter play, aka (for instance, copied on top also) Bogardan Hellkite.
Thanks for the reply!
Could you explain the reasoning that led you to it?
It seems to me that if it wasn't for that whole business with revealing the top card (say, if it borrowed skills from creatures in play), it actually would work: just like Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifter , it would come into play with those abilities, so CIP triggers would apply.
The only thing that stumps me is revealing the card. When does that happen? It's not a CIP trigger - it's a static abiliy that's always on, so wouldn't that mean it's already revealed when triggers should be put on the stack? I'm not sure how everything is timed.
Thanks again!
Yaron
Simply, for Skill Borrower to trigger a copied CIP ability, its ability would have to work while it was in any zone. It doesn't. It's simply a 1/3 with no abilities while anywhere but in play.
Simply, for Skill Borrower to trigger a copied CIP ability, its ability would have to work while it was in any zone. It doesn't. It's simply a 1/3 with no abilities while anywhere but in play.
That's patently false. All comes-into-play abilities work only from play. Please take a look at the CompRules sections I quoted above.
Due to rule 410.1b, there is no time when the Borrower is in play that your top card would not be revealed, and according to rule 410.1a, it is not until that point that the game checks for comes-into-play abilities.
410.1b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Playing with the top card revealed doesn't modify the characteristics of Skill Borrower.
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this object] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
Skill Borrower doesn't have any triggered abilities since the top card isn't revealed.
EDIT: Jaxal, what version of the Comp Rules are you looking at? I can't find 410.1b
EDIT: nvm.
410.1b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Playing with the top card revealed doesn't modify the characteristics of Skill Borrower.
No, but his other ability does, and it applies immediately as well. There is no timing on the reveal ability. The borrower is in play, therefore it applies.
The relevance of rule 410.1b is that it enters play as modifed by those abilities, not if the abilites themselves exist or not.
Regardless of what the actual answer is, this is a tricky enough wording that I hope some FAQ or addendum to the rules deals with this. Jylichan asked if there was precedence, and I don't believe there is?
No, but his other ability does, and it applies immediately as well. There is no timing on the reveal ability. The borrower is in play, therefore it applies.
The relevance of rule 410.1b is that it enters play as modifed by those abilities, not if the abilites themselves exist or not.
Oh but you see there is timing on the reveal ability.
EDIT: (and your "410.1b" is 410.10b)
I suppose this thread is where my recent discovery about Skill Borrower belongs.
He's broken. He's busted. He needs fixing.
You guys have just scratched the surface of it; you've reacted to the problem (which is kind of neat), but you don't see it made plain.
Check this out:
418.2. Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don’t wait until the permanent is in play and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent comes into play, apply them before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it comes into play.
(This rule would end the current debate were it not for the problem I'm about to reveal.)
Quote from 418.4, "Continuous Effects from Static Abilities" »
418.4b The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is in play or the object generating it is in the appropriate zone.
Quote from 418.5, "Interaction of Continuous Effects" »
418.5k Some continuous effects affect game rules rather than objects. For example, effects may modify a player’s maximum hand size. These effects are applied after all other continuous effects have been applied. Continuous effects that affect the costs of spells or abilities are applied according to the order specified in rule 409.1f. All other such effects are applied in timestamp order. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–g).
The first ability applies after. So we have Skill Borrower gaining abilities before an effect says the top card is revealed, for us to know what it is.
It tells us to look at timestamp order and dependency. But timestamp is irrelevant (both effects have the timestamp of Skill Borrower), and dependency doesn't save us, since the effects aren't dependent:
418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).
However, I do see one fix. And that is if the Future Sight effect actually, somehow, gets inside layer 5, where it can (coincidentally?) get the other effect to depend on it. In my opinion, if you read this rule in a loopholish sort of way, it's already in there. But we know 418.5k says it's not.
So summarily, what I'm saying is, although 418.4 makes the answer to nickolai's exact question "no," what we have is that at the point where any CiP abilities of the Borrower need to know what they are, the top card of the library is still face down. And that's a problem.
I think what it comes down to is that the game is allowed to know the values of the top card even if the players don't.
That is the only viable solution, yes. I can't think of anything particularly insane about that, although I'm sure there's a CIP ability somewhere that will make that not work...
...what if you have Haakon on top of your library? Can you still play Skill Borrower?
The issue is if the second ability is ever applying and the first one is not - possibly because of the second ability.
I'm trying to think of any creatures or artifacts that could be on top that would force the reveal ability to not exist or cease to apply and I'm coming up with nothing. You?
Either the answer to the OP's question is "yes," for the reasons given first in this thread,
or the answer is "yes, after Wizards fixes the problem with it and Crown of Convergence."
depending on whether there is a problem with Crown of Convergence.
Either way, it's yes.
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That's not a doozy at all. Volrath's Shapeshifter's ability is a text changing effect (even though it acts a lot like a copy effect), so it applies in Layer 3. Yixlid Jailer's ability doesn't apply until layer 5 (right after the borrowed Borrower's ability gives the Jailer ability to the Shapeshifter).
Even if the Jailer did apply first, it removes abilities, not text.
The layering system prevents most of these types of shenanigans. Humility and Opalesence aren't bad either.
Still nothing. Everything is in layer 5 now, with the same timestamp (since there is only one object involved), but each is dependant on the other, because the existence of the effect depends on the previous effect.
The pseudo-shapeshifter would gain the Borrower's abilities, which would in turn give it the Jailer's ability. The Borrower in the graveyard would then lose it's abilties, but that doesn't matter anymore.
This isn't the old days where the game got its panties in a bunch because an animated Humility removed it's own ability.
Update 9/25/08:
Now that the borrower is fully spoiled, we know it only gains the activated abilities and this whole discussion was meaningless. See why rulings on spoiled cards are not official?
Skill Borrower
Artifact Creature - Shapeshifter
You play with the top card of your library revealed.
As long as the top card of your library is an artifact or a creature card, Skill Borrower gains all abilities of that card.
1/3
Question: What happens if I play a skill borrower, and reveal a card with a comes-into-play trigger? Since Skill Borrower's abilities are static, do they come online in time for the CIP ability to be triggered off Skill Borrower's coming into play?
Thanks,
Yaron
If you're about to pounce on someone who said card A was "strictly better" than card B, and treat them to some convoluted counter-example, please don't.
"Strictly better" does not mean "better in every possible in-game situation."
It means "better in every possible deck, vs. every plausible meta-game."
So if you can't actually think of a deck-building situation where you'd prefer card B to card A, then please spare us the Mindslaver.
Thank you!
Thanks for the reply!
Could you explain the reasoning that led you to it?
It seems to me that if it wasn't for that whole business with revealing the top card (say, if it borrowed skills from creatures in play), it actually would work: just like Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifter , it would come into play with those abilities, so CIP triggers would apply.
The only thing that stumps me is revealing the card. When does that happen? It's not a CIP trigger - it's a static abiliy that's always on, so wouldn't that mean it's already revealed when triggers should be put on the stack? I'm not sure how everything is timed.
Thanks again!
Yaron
If you're about to pounce on someone who said card A was "strictly better" than card B, and treat them to some convoluted counter-example, please don't.
"Strictly better" does not mean "better in every possible in-game situation."
It means "better in every possible deck, vs. every plausible meta-game."
So if you can't actually think of a deck-building situation where you'd prefer card B to card A, then please spare us the Mindslaver.
Thank you!
It has to be in play before it's ability works, which means when its coming into play it won't be working. Once it does work, you've missed your chance.
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Simply, for Skill Borrower to trigger a copied CIP ability, its ability would have to work while it was in any zone. It doesn't. It's simply a 1/3 with no abilities while anywhere but in play.
That's patently false. All comes-into-play abilities work only from play. Please take a look at the CompRules sections I quoted above.
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Playing with the top card revealed doesn't modify the characteristics of Skill Borrower.
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this object] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
Skill Borrower doesn't have any triggered abilities since the top card isn't revealed.
EDIT: Jaxal, what version of the Comp Rules are you looking at? I can't find 410.1b
EDIT: nvm.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
The relevance of rule 410.1b is that it enters play as modifed by those abilities, not if the abilites themselves exist or not.
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But the result should still be clear.
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Oh but you see there is timing on the reveal ability.
EDIT: (and your "410.1b" is 410.10b)
I suppose this thread is where my recent discovery about Skill Borrower belongs.
He's broken. He's busted. He needs fixing.
You guys have just scratched the surface of it; you've reacted to the problem (which is kind of neat), but you don't see it made plain.
Check this out:
(This rule would end the current debate were it not for the problem I'm about to reveal.)
The first ability applies after. So we have Skill Borrower gaining abilities before an effect says the top card is revealed, for us to know what it is.
It tells us to look at timestamp order and dependency. But timestamp is irrelevant (both effects have the timestamp of Skill Borrower), and dependency doesn't save us, since the effects aren't dependent:
The Future Sight effect isn't in a layer at all.
However, I do see one fix. And that is if the Future Sight effect actually, somehow, gets inside layer 5, where it can (coincidentally?) get the other effect to depend on it. In my opinion, if you read this rule in a loopholish sort of way, it's already in there. But we know 418.5k says it's not.
So summarily, what I'm saying is, although 418.4 makes the answer to nickolai's exact question "no," what we have is that at the point where any CiP abilities of the Borrower need to know what they are, the top card of the library is still face down. And that's a problem.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I think what it comes down to is that the game is allowed to know the values of the top card even if the players don't.
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That is the only viable solution, yes. I can't think of anything particularly insane about that, although I'm sure there's a CIP ability somewhere that will make that not work...
...what if you have Haakon on top of your library? Can you still play Skill Borrower?
Similarly, it won't get Clone's ability, because that ability applies while entering play.
Edit: More specifically, it will get the ability, but it won't do anything.
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You're right it doesn't!!! :o
I'm thinking this.
The issue is if the second ability is ever applying and the first one is not - possibly because of the second ability.
Well that wraps that up.
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I'm trying to think of any creatures or artifacts that could be on top that would force the reveal ability to not exist or cease to apply and I'm coming up with nothing. You?
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So. Just for clarification:
Yes or no?
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Either the answer to the OP's question is "yes," for the reasons given first in this thread,
or the answer is "yes, after Wizards fixes the problem with it and Crown of Convergence."
depending on whether there is a problem with Crown of Convergence.
Either way, it's yes.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Even if the Jailer did apply first, it removes abilities, not text.
The layering system prevents most of these types of shenanigans. Humility and Opalesence aren't bad either.
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The pseudo-shapeshifter would gain the Borrower's abilities, which would in turn give it the Jailer's ability. The Borrower in the graveyard would then lose it's abilties, but that doesn't matter anymore.
This isn't the old days where the game got its panties in a bunch because an animated Humility removed it's own ability.
Update 9/25/08:
Now that the borrower is fully spoiled, we know it only gains the activated abilities and this whole discussion was meaningless. See why rulings on spoiled cards are not official?
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Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game