I'll go ahead and ask what several of us are taking shots at already. Is there ANY way a creature can stick around longer than the end of the turn after its Unearth ability has been used?
If Unearth works the way we think it does (since we don't have the full rules text for it yet), then a blink or flicker effect would work. Also, Pull from Eternity would put it back into your graveyard for another go.
I don't think blinking works since it would be removed by the unearth trigger when you try to remove it with the spell.
If it is a trigger: Blinking will work, because it would return to play before the trigger would stack. Flickering would not work, though. However, if it's a trigger, then it can be responded to and there are much more fun ways to break it.
If it is a replacement effect, which it appears to be: Being RFGed will be replaced by being RFGed. Nothing changes, so blink or flicker would resolve as normal. This is similar to the interaction between Delay and flashback cards.
Of course, the actual Comp Rule entry for Unearth, which we have not seen, may prove me wrong.
Panos, I don't want to get this back into the other thread, but Blink and Flicker effects are almost always a single ability, so there is no 'linking'. (Turn to Mist has a badly-placed linebreak that makes it ambiguous if it's one ability or two.) Spells don't have abilities at all. Instants and sorceries merely have effects.
Replacing something with the same event is the same as not changing the event.
Jaxal, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about blink effects. Delay + flashback works because flashback specifically says that it removes the card from the game if it would go anywhere else. So, if the card would go to the graveyard, flashback steps in and removes it instead. If it would go to a hand, flashback steps in and removes it. If it would be removed from the game, flashback lets it pass - but it is important to note the reason why flashback lets it pass. The fact that both flashback and Delay try to remove the card from the game is NOT why Dealy works. Delay works because the rules of flashback say that it doesn't mess with cards that are already getting RFTG. If this exception were not in the rules, if flashback instead simply said that if the card would leave the stack, remove it from the game instead, then Delaying a flashbacked spell would remove it permanently.
Unearth, however, does not seem to have such an exception (of course, this is partially speculation as the full rules of it are not known). If an Unearthed creature would be removed from the game by a blink effect, Unearth steps in and says "no, you can't remove him. I'M removing him" and the blink effect can't bring him back.
Lord, you are right the Unearth will still try to replace the event. The point is that it doesn't matter. Flashback works exactly the same way:
Quote from CompRules »
502.22a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and the other functions while the card is on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f–h.
what if you (and idk if this is remotely possible using any known cards, but...) tried to counter the RFG that is on the stack (IS it on the stack?) while it was there? if you counter the replacement, would the unearthed card be placed where it was meant to be?
if so im stocking up on isochrons and stifles. lol
Level 3 Magic Judge
Do you know any judges who always impress you with their work ethic, knowledge, or attitude? Nominate them to be the next Judge of the Week!
EDIT: Oh yeah, that. Well, it would (should) trigger at the end of every turn, so you'd have to Stifle the ability every turn.
It'd have to be a delayed triggered ability (since its not static). It can only trigger once. One stifle would do it.
Quote from Lordatog »
If it's already getting removed from the game, then it's not going anywhere else and so this effect doesn't apply.
The event being replaced is 'it would leave the stack'. It is being replaced with 'remove it from the game'. 'Anywhere else' doesn't mean anywhere but the RFG zone, it means anywhere but the stack.
Replace 'stack' with 'play' and you have how Unearth should work.
Yes, "it would leave the stack" is being replaced by "remove it from the game" IF it's leaving the stack for anywhere other than the RFG zone. I can't imagine any way you could parse that sentence that would imply that "anywhere else" means "anywhere but the stack".
I posted this in the other thread, but it looks like the same things are being said here. Keep in mind that all we know right now is unearth's reminder text. Given that we are dealing just with reminder text here, and not Comp Rules text, all of the potential rulings given here are based on assumptions.
Here is what we can assume from the reminder text: Unearth *probably* represents two abilities. 1) is an activated ability that sets up a delayed triggered ability, and 2) is a replacement effect. Based on existing rules templates, the two abilities probably look something like this.
1) [unearth cost]: Put ~this~ into play from your graveyard. It gains haste. At end of turn, remove it from the game.
(The last sentence in the ability sets up a delayed triggered ability that will go on the stack at the beginning of the End of Turn step.)
2) If ~this~ was put into play using its unearth ability, remove it from the game if it would leave play.
The first ability is pretty straightforward. If unearth were just the first ability, and not the second, you would have a great combo with Nantuko Husk and Greater Gargadon. Just make sure the creature doesn't live until the end of turn, and you can swing with it every turn for its unearth cost. It's the second ability that makes that not work, and it's the second ability that's getting everyone really worked up.
The second ability reminds me of Flashback.
Quote from Rule 502.22a »
Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and the other functions while the card is on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Playing a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f–h.
The relevant part of Flashback says "remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." Unearth's rules text could easily say something similar, like "remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave play." Right now, we don't have the rules text, just the reminder text, so we don't know.
However, I believe Flashback is worded the way it is because the rules for replacement effects don't have a method for dealing with replacement effects that replace an event with the same event.
For example, when you target an unearthed creature with Turn to Mist, you have the "Remove target creature from the game" part of Turn to Mist being replaced with "Remove target creature from the game." Is anything being replaced here? It's the same event before the replacement as it is after. I have a hard time concluding that an event was actually replaced.
Consequently, with no rules that tell me how to handle this weird situation, I would predict that the unearth replacement effect will be worded similarly to Flashback.
"If ~this~ was put into play using its unearth ability, remove remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave play."
Again, this is just speculation. We don't have the actual rules text right now. But based on existing rulings and existing rule and card templating, this is what I predict. And if I'm correct, then the unearthed creature would return from Turn to Mist or Momentary Blink.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All warfare is based on deception.
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Kuma, when I woke up this morning and was better rested, I was going to put together a post that says pretty much what yours says. Thank you for saving me the trouble.
And yes, I'll stop arguing about Unearth, if only to minimize the amount of crow I have to eat if it's either worded funny or the CompRules get an overhaul to replacement effects.
To add a bit of fuel to the "blink works" camp, I'd also point out that WotC probably thought of Devour and other sacrifice-mechanics first and foremost with the replacement effect. (Keep saccing the same creature over and over? Maybe find some infinite loop? Don't mind if I Do!) Turn to Mist by comparison is much fairer.
Foxbat, I don't think that Devour was particularly in mind. I think it's just that without the replacement effect, if anything happened to your creature (even combat damage), you'd be able to Unearth it again, since it would have gone to your graveyard.
Yes, that certainly gets more abusive when you go out of your way to get useful sacrifice effects, but even making it where your opponent couldn't block for the kill without giving you another Unearth attempt is bad.
That's the same reason Flashback doesn't just change the resolution event: Can you imagine how crappy it would be if you knew countering a Flashback spell was basically just Remanding it, without the card draw.
502.84a Unearth is an activated ability that functions while the card is in a graveyard. "Unearth [cost]" means "[Cost]: Return this card from your graveyard to play. It gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn. If it would leave play, remove it from the game instead of putting it anywhere else. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery."
It does in fact have the same exception as Flashback, so blinking works. Doesn't answer the question of whether blinking would work if it didn't have that exception, sadly. :-(
It does in fact have the same exception as Flashback, so blinking works. Doesn't answer the question of whether blinking would work if it didn't have that exception, sadly. :-(
As stated above, that isn't an exception, at least not the way you think it is. "Anywhere else" means "Anywhere other than the current zone" which is in play for unearth creatures. This means that if some strange effect tried to place the unearth creature from play directly into play, it wouldn't instead remove it from the game.
Yes, it is wording that exists for a situation that cannot currently happen, but you'll find situations like that all the time in the rules. After all, before Leyline of the Void, you couldn't have a card in the RFG zone try to move to the RFG zone, but once it happened it opened up fun loopholes at the time (Void Maw). Now they just address those ahead of time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Judge GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
Panos, I don't want to get this back into the other thread, but Blink and Flicker effects are almost always a single ability, so there is no 'linking'. (Turn to Mist has a badly-placed linebreak that makes it ambiguous if it's one ability or two.) Spells don't have abilities at all. Instants and sorceries merely have effects.
Replacing something with the same event is the same as not changing the event.
Edit: Fixed a terminology mistake.
Spells have abilities. They *The ones of instants and sorceries* just aren't static, activated, or triggered.
Apparently that's only just now being explicitly acknowledged in the rules, but it was true before (since nothing in the rules implied that they were any one of those 'kinds').
bsushort, you're just wrong. The rules say the same thing for flashback, and I know you know how flashback works. Also, minimal speculation applied to the sentence allows the conclusion that the "if it would leave play" part takes care of the meaning you attribute to "instead of putting it anywhere else" - which is to say, if it was to work the way you say, there's no reason for it to be written the way it is.
EDIT: Also, I am extremely confident that you cannot find any selection of cards that will try to put a permanent in play into play. The rule about an RFG card being put in its own zone, is alone.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Quite all right, I prefer eternal formats.
Stifle may do it if the EOT trip is a trigger but I'm not sure there.
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Minions committed to
forcing Contraptions in YMTC4,
and Resisting The Tyranny of the
Viva La Assembly!
Quotes:
If it is a trigger: Blinking will work, because it would return to play before the trigger would stack. Flickering would not work, though. However, if it's a trigger, then it can be responded to and there are much more fun ways to break it.
If it is a replacement effect, which it appears to be: Being RFGed will be replaced by being RFGed. Nothing changes, so blink or flicker would resolve as normal. This is similar to the interaction between Delay and flashback cards.
Of course, the actual Comp Rule entry for Unearth, which we have not seen, may prove me wrong.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
(Turn to Mist has a badly-placed linebreak that makes it ambiguous if it's one ability or two.)Spells don't have abilities at all. Instants and sorceries merely have effects.Replacing something with the same event is the same as not changing the event.
Edit: Fixed a terminology mistake.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Unearth, however, does not seem to have such an exception (of course, this is partially speculation as the full rules of it are not known). If an Unearthed creature would be removed from the game by a blink effect, Unearth steps in and says "no, you can't remove him. I'M removing him" and the blink effect can't bring him back.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
if so im stocking up on isochrons and stifles. lol
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
EDIT: Oh yeah, that. Well, it would (should) trigger at the end of every turn, so you'd have to Stifle the ability every turn.
Do you know any judges who always impress you with their work ethic, knowledge, or attitude? Nominate them to be the next Judge of the Week!
No, but you can counter the "at end of turn, remove it from the game" trigger.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
If it's already getting removed from the game, then it's not going anywhere else and so this effect doesn't apply.
It'd have to be a delayed triggered ability (since its not static). It can only trigger once. One stifle would do it.
The event being replaced is 'it would leave the stack'. It is being replaced with 'remove it from the game'. 'Anywhere else' doesn't mean anywhere but the RFG zone, it means anywhere but the stack.
Replace 'stack' with 'play' and you have how Unearth should work.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Here is what we can assume from the reminder text: Unearth *probably* represents two abilities. 1) is an activated ability that sets up a delayed triggered ability, and 2) is a replacement effect. Based on existing rules templates, the two abilities probably look something like this.
1) [unearth cost]: Put ~this~ into play from your graveyard. It gains haste. At end of turn, remove it from the game.
(The last sentence in the ability sets up a delayed triggered ability that will go on the stack at the beginning of the End of Turn step.)
2) If ~this~ was put into play using its unearth ability, remove it from the game if it would leave play.
The first ability is pretty straightforward. If unearth were just the first ability, and not the second, you would have a great combo with Nantuko Husk and Greater Gargadon. Just make sure the creature doesn't live until the end of turn, and you can swing with it every turn for its unearth cost. It's the second ability that makes that not work, and it's the second ability that's getting everyone really worked up.
The second ability reminds me of Flashback.
The relevant part of Flashback says "remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." Unearth's rules text could easily say something similar, like "remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave play." Right now, we don't have the rules text, just the reminder text, so we don't know.
However, I believe Flashback is worded the way it is because the rules for replacement effects don't have a method for dealing with replacement effects that replace an event with the same event.
For example, when you target an unearthed creature with Turn to Mist, you have the "Remove target creature from the game" part of Turn to Mist being replaced with "Remove target creature from the game." Is anything being replaced here? It's the same event before the replacement as it is after. I have a hard time concluding that an event was actually replaced.
Consequently, with no rules that tell me how to handle this weird situation, I would predict that the unearth replacement effect will be worded similarly to Flashback.
"If ~this~ was put into play using its unearth ability, remove remove this card from the game instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave play."
Again, this is just speculation. We don't have the actual rules text right now. But based on existing rulings and existing rule and card templating, this is what I predict. And if I'm correct, then the unearthed creature would return from Turn to Mist or Momentary Blink.
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Level 2 DCI Judge
And yes, I'll stop arguing about Unearth, if only to minimize the amount of crow I have to eat if it's either worded funny or the CompRules get an overhaul to replacement effects.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Yes, that certainly gets more abusive when you go out of your way to get useful sacrifice effects, but even making it where your opponent couldn't block for the kill without giving you another Unearth attempt is bad.
That's the same reason Flashback doesn't just change the resolution event: Can you imagine how crappy it would be if you knew countering a Flashback spell was basically just Remanding it, without the card draw.
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
It does in fact have the same exception as Flashback, so blinking works. Doesn't answer the question of whether blinking would work if it didn't have that exception, sadly. :-(
As stated above, that isn't an exception, at least not the way you think it is. "Anywhere else" means "Anywhere other than the current zone" which is in play for unearth creatures. This means that if some strange effect tried to place the unearth creature from play directly into play, it wouldn't instead remove it from the game.
Yes, it is wording that exists for a situation that cannot currently happen, but you'll find situations like that all the time in the rules. After all, before Leyline of the Void, you couldn't have a card in the RFG zone try to move to the RFG zone, but once it happened it opened up fun loopholes at the time (Void Maw). Now they just address those ahead of time.
GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
Spells have abilities.
They*The ones of instants and sorceries* just aren't static, activated, or triggered.Apparently that's only just now being explicitly acknowledged in the rules, but it was true before (since nothing in the rules implied that they were any one of those 'kinds').
bsushort, you're just wrong. The rules say the same thing for flashback, and I know you know how flashback works. Also, minimal speculation applied to the sentence allows the conclusion that the "if it would leave play" part takes care of the meaning you attribute to "instead of putting it anywhere else" - which is to say, if it was to work the way you say, there's no reason for it to be written the way it is.
EDIT: Also, I am extremely confident that you cannot find any selection of cards that will try to put a permanent in play into play. The rule about an RFG card being put in its own zone, is alone.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Thanks to PurpleD from Left Play Designs for the banner:D
'Bad Spirit' banner by Hot Pizza at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
I was a Top 32 Contestant for RPG Superstar 2008!
Come take a look at my custom set, Lost Relics. (To be finished...eventually)
Check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game