"You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game."
Does this mean if my opponent has Abyssal Persecutor down I can immediately concede the game and then what? The complete rules confuse me (104.2a says that a player wins the game if all opponents have left the game but my opponent can't win and 104.3a says since I conceded I lose the game but apparently I can't lose).
With Platinum Angel this isn't a problem because the moment you concede all cards you own leave the game with you but nothing says my opponent's cards don't remain in play and prevent him from winning.
No you win if they scoop. Theres a rule in the CR that states cards take precedence over everything except you can always concede the game. Conceding results in a loss for the person that does it so even if the card says your opponent can't lose, Conceding overrides the card.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
No. If you concede, you condede. Game is over, you forfeit. Losing the game as a state based action is not possible, but forfeiting supercedes card rules.
What about if someone runs out of cards. They can't lose the game so I assume they are still in the game?
Exactly. When that player would draw a card the game would say, "You lose for trying to draw a card off an empty library!" AP, however, steps in and says, "No way! That guy can't lose!" The game then says, "Okay. Just keep playing then."
One could think you are waiting for that removal to come... nothing you can do to kill your persecutor just yet!
This would be subject to a judge's investigation if the opponent so wanted it though. For example, say you get to the 5 minute mark for the round, say "Oh, THERE'S the removal spell", and kill your Persecutor. Your opponent calls judge. I come over and examine the game state, and see you were holding 3 Terminates. I'd be a bit suspicious.
Does this mean if my opponent has Abyssal Persecutor down I can immediately concede the game and then what? The complete rules confuse me (104.2a says that a player wins the game if all opponents have left the game but my opponent can't win and 104.3a says since I conceded I lose the game but apparently I can't lose).
With Platinum Angel this isn't a problem because the moment you concede all cards you own leave the game with you but nothing says my opponent's cards don't remain in play and prevent him from winning.
You must remember that with every new set there is an update to the Comprehensive Rules. So while the rules interactions may seem clunky right now, I'd expect hem to be clearer after the update.
This would be subject to a judge's investigation if the opponent so wanted it though. For example, say you get to the 5 minute mark for the round, say "Oh, THERE'S the removal spell", and kill your Persecutor. Your opponent calls judge. I come over and examine the game state, and see you were holding 3 Terminates. I'd be a bit suspicious.
Don't cheat; you will get caught.
But that wouldn't be stalling the game (in the sense that you're taking 5 minutes per turn). You're opponent still has time to kill you with w/e they draw.
But that wouldn't be stalling the game (in the sense that you're taking 5 minutes per turn). You're opponent still has time to kill you with w/e they draw.
The situation was that the opponent had no library or cards in hand, so they're completely locked out of the game.
What would happen if both players run out of cards in their hand and library, and there are no other creatures on the field other than Abyssal Persecutor, so there's literary no way to remove him. You'd simply go into time and it's a draw. What if it's during a no-time limit round?
It probably won't come up, but it's still something rules relevant.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
What would happen if both players run out of cards in their hand and library, and there are no other creatures on the field other than Abyssal Persecutor, so there's literary no way to remove him. You'd simply go into time and it's a draw. What if it's during a no-time limit round?
It probably won't come up, but it's still something rules relevant.
it would be the same thing with Platinum Angel . Like limited (force picked her) she was out with indestructibility they can't do anything the whole time. Time called. Turns Taken. Ends up a draw even though it says I cant lose/ he can't win. It will just be Visa Versa.. (i cant win/ he cant lose) still a draw regardless.
ON a no time limit round you would run out of cards then you would lose cause you can't draw.
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I play tezzeret, agent of bolas in a non artifact deck... want to fight about it?
The situation was that the opponent had no library or cards in hand, so they're completely locked out of the game.
As I understand it, in the situation outlined, continueing to play the game is NOT stalling. You are not forced to play optimally in order to win the fastest way possible. If that were the case, the people would be disqualified for simple play mistakes that cause games to take longer. Stalling is intentionally taking long pauses between actions for no apparent reason other than to exhaust the remaining time. Not killing someone when you could do so is not stalling. They could always concede.
If neither player can do anything and neither player can win or lose, the game is a draw.
Source? I see the following in the Comprehensive rules
104.4. There are several ways to draw the game.
104.4a If all the players remaining in a game lose simultaneously, the game is a draw.
104.4b If the game somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw.
104.4c An effect may state that the game is a draw.
104.4d In a multiplayer game between teams, the game is a draw if all remaining teams lose simultaneously.
104.4e In a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option, the effect of a spell or ability that states that the game is a draw causes the game to be a draw for that spell or ability's controller and all players within his or her range of influence. Only those players leave the game; the game continues for all other players.
104.4f In a multiplayer game between teams, the game is a draw for a team if the game is a draw for all remaining players on that team.
104.4g In the Emperor variant, the game is a draw for a team if the game is a draw for its emperor. See rule 807.5.
A and C obviously do not apply. D, E, F, and G are only in multiplayer. This leaves B, but that can't apply since there's optional actions (I can still tap whichever lands I want, choose to attack with the Persecutor or not, etc.).
How could you stall in a situation where your opponent has no avenue to victory and knows it? They'll just concede.
I agree here. Having the Persecutor out, being in the first game and holding a Terminate while your opponent is in negative life is not stalling. You are not required to win the game just because you can. However, if your opponent is smart (and really has no way to win) they will concede so they can move to game 2 and hopefully have a better position.
If you were already up 1-0 and in the second game though, your opponent has little recourse; but again, it is not considered stalling.
I agree here. Having the Persecutor out, being in the first game and holding a Terminate while your opponent is in negative life is not stalling. You are not required to win the game just because you can. However, if your opponent is smart (and really has no way to win) they will concede so they can move to game 2 and hopefully have a better position.
If you were already up 1-0 and in the second game though, your opponent has little recourse; but again, it is not considered stalling.
Valid point, and something to consider. However, there would still be an investigation, so the absolute answer can't be given in this venue.
Valid point, and something to consider. However, there would still be an investigation, so the absolute answer can't be given in this venue.
An investigation into what? There is literally no rule being broken as long as the Terminate holding player was playing at a reasonable pace.
This situation comes up all the time, and it's always the same answer. If you're playing within the game rules at a reasonable pace you aren't stalling. It doesn't matter if you're dragging out the game, there is literally zero rules against that.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Of course, the question is, what's really the point. If you're 1-0, your opponent is in the negatives, and you have a terminate, why would you go for the draw, instead of the win?
But I guess it is a good reason to discuss these things.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
Does this mean if my opponent has Abyssal Persecutor down I can immediately concede the game and then what? The complete rules confuse me (104.2a says that a player wins the game if all opponents have left the game but my opponent can't win and 104.3a says since I conceded I lose the game but apparently I can't lose).
With Platinum Angel this isn't a problem because the moment you concede all cards you own leave the game with you but nothing says my opponent's cards don't remain in play and prevent him from winning.
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Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
No you win if they scoop. Theres a rule in the CR that states cards take precedence over everything except you can always concede the game. Conceding results in a loss for the person that does it so even if the card says your opponent can't lose, Conceding overrides the card.
Exactly. When that player would draw a card the game would say, "You lose for trying to draw a card off an empty library!" AP, however, steps in and says, "No way! That guy can't lose!" The game then says, "Okay. Just keep playing then."
I wouldn't suggest that. Intentionally stalling is grounds for disqualification.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
So Abyssal Persecutor leaves play (sort of) when you concede.
This would be subject to a judge's investigation if the opponent so wanted it though. For example, say you get to the 5 minute mark for the round, say "Oh, THERE'S the removal spell", and kill your Persecutor. Your opponent calls judge. I come over and examine the game state, and see you were holding 3 Terminates. I'd be a bit suspicious.
Don't cheat; you will get caught.
on a side note, can someone tell me how and where i can post a deck list for help making it run smoother?
You must remember that with every new set there is an update to the Comprehensive Rules. So while the rules interactions may seem clunky right now, I'd expect hem to be clearer after the update.
New Card Discussion has a few threads going about Persecuter, ranging from control to sacrifice combos to Bazaar Trader shenanigans. Check them out.
But that wouldn't be stalling the game (in the sense that you're taking 5 minutes per turn). You're opponent still has time to kill you with w/e they draw.
The situation was that the opponent had no library or cards in hand, so they're completely locked out of the game.
It probably won't come up, but it's still something rules relevant.
it would be the same thing with Platinum Angel . Like limited (force picked her) she was out with indestructibility they can't do anything the whole time. Time called. Turns Taken. Ends up a draw even though it says I cant lose/ he can't win. It will just be Visa Versa.. (i cant win/ he cant lose) still a draw regardless.
ON a no time limit round you would run out of cards then you would lose cause you can't draw.
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As I understand it, in the situation outlined, continueing to play the game is NOT stalling. You are not forced to play optimally in order to win the fastest way possible. If that were the case, the people would be disqualified for simple play mistakes that cause games to take longer. Stalling is intentionally taking long pauses between actions for no apparent reason other than to exhaust the remaining time. Not killing someone when you could do so is not stalling. They could always concede.
Source? I see the following in the Comprehensive rules
A and C obviously do not apply. D, E, F, and G are only in multiplayer. This leaves B, but that can't apply since there's optional actions (I can still tap whichever lands I want, choose to attack with the Persecutor or not, etc.).
Of course. The question is what happens when one player doesn't want to do this.
Example: I win the first game. Second game we get into this stalemate. By making this game unable to end, I guarantee myself the match win.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I agree here. Having the Persecutor out, being in the first game and holding a Terminate while your opponent is in negative life is not stalling. You are not required to win the game just because you can. However, if your opponent is smart (and really has no way to win) they will concede so they can move to game 2 and hopefully have a better position.
If you were already up 1-0 and in the second game though, your opponent has little recourse; but again, it is not considered stalling.
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Valid point, and something to consider. However, there would still be an investigation, so the absolute answer can't be given in this venue.
An investigation into what? There is literally no rule being broken as long as the Terminate holding player was playing at a reasonable pace.
This situation comes up all the time, and it's always the same answer. If you're playing within the game rules at a reasonable pace you aren't stalling. It doesn't matter if you're dragging out the game, there is literally zero rules against that.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
But I guess it is a good reason to discuss these things.