I've seen a few posts with misconceptions as far as this card is concerned, so I figured I'd do a FYI/Public Service type post to see if it clears everything up. I hope this isn't out of line or condescending, because I'm really trying not to be by posting it. If someone sees anything incorrect here, please tell me too. (Or edit if you're a mod I guess? :p)
0) The Basics
First, let's make sure we're all on the same page:
- This is a colorless creature that is NOT an Artifact. The typeline does not include the word Artifact. Therefore, it isn't by default. This is how Eldrazi Monument is not a colorless Eldrazi spell: it does not have Eldrazi in its typeline.
- This does work in all ways with Eye of Ugin. It is a colorless card of type Eldrazi, so it costs 2 less if you cast it as a spell while you control Eye of Ugin. Additionally, you can pay the 7 and tap Eye of Ugin to find this, because it's a colorless creature. (Unless Painter's Servant is out, at which point it's colored because Painter's Servant affects the library and your hand as well.)
- Cards with protection from a color do not have protection from this (barring the above Painter's Servant caveat). However, "protection from creatures" (Beloved Chaplain) will stop Kozilek from steamrolling 12 points of damage to your critter, blocking that creature, and so on.
- Annihilator circumvents indestructibility, regeneration and protection. If you have four permanents, and this creature attacks you, you will lose those four permanents, period, even if they're all Darksteel Citadel. The short answer why this is, is that you're sacrificing permanents in a non-targetted way. There's no destruction occurring here and so indestructibility and regeneration do not apply.
On to more specific things, based on posts I've read:
1) This does not work with Tinker.
Tinker will only let you grab a card that is an Artifact by type. Barring an effect that changes the type of cards in the library, and I don't know of any cards that do that off the top of my head, this card is not an Artifact while in your library.
2)This is not the same as Darksteel Colossus for the purposes of the graveyard.
When Kozilek dies, is milled, discarded, Pull from Eternity'd, etc., its owner (presumably you) will be shuffling your graveyard into your library. There is a window of opportunity to exile this card (such as Cremate). Darksteel Colossus's effect is a replacement effect, because you reveal it and shuffle INSTEAD of putting it into the graveyard. Here, it's a reaction to actually being putting there, rather than on its way as in the case of Darksteel Colossus.
3) Interaction with discard effects on cards.(e.g. - Frantic Search)
In short, you shuffle Kozilek and Frantic Search together when you finish discarding to Frantic Search.
When Frantic Search resolves, you perform all instructions as printed on the card, then the card leaves the stack and goes to the appropriate zone (by default: battlefield for permanent types, graveyard for non-permanents).
In order of occurrance, for Frantic Search:
- Draw two cards.
- Discard two cards (presumably Kozilek is one of them)
- Kozilek triggers and waits to go on the stack; Frantic Search is not done yet.
- Untap up to three lands.
- Frantic Search finishes resolving and goes into the graveyard.
- Kozilek's trigger goes onto the top of the stack now that Frantic Search is finished.
- Shuffle shuffle shuffle.
In other cases, such as Oona's Prowler, you discard this card to pay the cost of the Prowler's ability. The Prowler's ability then goes on the stack, and THEN Kozilek's trigger goes on top. He and the graveyard will be shuffled before Prowler gets -2/-0.
4) You don't draw cards if you play Cheatyface with this.
This is mostly common sense here. If you use an effect such as Elvish Piper, Oath of Druids or Show and Tell, you did not cast the spell. It did not pass GO and you do not collect four cards for having it bypass the stack on its way to play beatface with permanents and/or life totals.
That said, you DO get to draw if you play it for free via effects such as Brilliant Ultimatum or Maelstrom Archangel. Not paying the mana cost for a spell does not mean you did not cast it.
5) You draw the four cards before he's nukeable by removal.
I don't think much more needs said here. You announce him as a spell, you pay costs, he goes on the stack, and his "draw four" ability triggers. He's still currently a spell waiting to resolve (at which point he'll go onto the battlefield). It doesn't matter if he is countered as a spell for any reason. Only Stifle type cards will prevent the drawing of the four cards if he goes onto the stack as a spell.
6) Annihilator happens before damage.
Self-explanatory. The moment Kozilek is declared as an attacker, you choose an opponent (or opponent's planeswalker) as the attacked party, at which point he/she is the defending player. Annihilator will trigger and resolve (short of Stifle or Humility type cards lurking around). The player on the receiving end will lose the specified number of permanents. THEN, we continue on with the typical combat steps of blockers (if any), and combat damage.
7) Progenitus is special and does and doesn't die to this guy.
- Progenitus can't be blocked by Kozilek, and all damage Kozilek (Cosi?!) would deal to Progenitus is prevented, barring active effects such as from Unstable Footing or Everlasting Torment. (In the latter case, -1/-1 counters end up on the Hydra.)
- If you have Mr. I'm Too WUBRG For You (see what I did there?) on the table with up to three other permanents, that hydra is taking a trip to Frowntown and getting shuffled. Annihilator does not deal damage or target Kozilek (or anything else for that matter). Protection from everything does not mean "protection from getting destroyed, sacrificed, the foiling process of cards, eaten by babies, or angry tentacle monsters with Annihilator and me the only permanent of the defending player halp".
Either my brain is asweep or I don't know what you're getting at with the mention of Lattice. It doesn't really influence anything off the top of my head... unless we want to get into the whole Eye + Lattice + Changeling bit which isn't really what I was getting at here.
Either my brain is asweep or I don't know what you're getting at with the mention of Lattice. It doesn't really influence anything off the top of my head... unless we want to get into the whole Eye + Lattice + Changeling bit which isn't really what I was getting at here.
Nah, your brain's working. I guess it's not really worth mentioning in your post. Although I've mentioned it in mine, and you replied to that, and I replied to that, so my Lattice mention will live forever regardless!
It really only matters with Eye, and your thread isn't directly about Eye, so nevermind.
You could probably clarify the draw ability a little.
It's a triggered ability that triggers when Koz is cast, so it will go on the stack above Koz and resolve before Koz does.
Countering Koz will not remove this ability from the stack, but it can be countered itself (by something like stifle)
And maybe a few other interactions I'm not thinking of right now. Hopefully people remember Demigod of Revenge, since this ability works the same way, but it isn't something that comes up very often, so I can see it causing confusion.
It is worth pointing out that if you manage to hit them with a Kozilek, Proggy can be subject to the Annhilator effect...as in, if you only have 4 permanents left, he gets sacked like any other permanent. He can block Kozilek all day long, sure, but he can still conceivably cause a problem for them if he can find a way through.
Maybe clarify that as soon as you declare him an attacker. annhilator triggers, so if you dont want to get annhialated then kill him before the attack phase... right?
Yeah I think the line about countering is important, since a counterspell doesn't stop the draw-4 trigger.
Also there are some confusing stack issues involving a counter:
The spell goes on the stack and so does the trigger (I assume the spell itself goes 'under' the draw). Now, if you counter it before the draw resolves, then the reshuffle option will shuffle the library before the draw resolves. Right? But if you let the trigger resolve, you can still counter and trigger the shuffle after your opponent has drawn. I guess this could matter in case they pre-rigged their deck with Halimar Depths or Jace. You can mess up their planned draw. Right?
Also, I think it might be pertinent to list the ways to "cheat" him into play AND get the draw 4 effect, at least in Standard. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Djinn of Wishes and Maelstrom Angel.
If you expand outside Standard, there still isn't much. Mind's Desire works. You could suspend him with Jhoira of the Ghitu. Or play him off the top with Intet, the Dreamer. What else? Temporal Aperture? I miss any others? There is a surprisingly small number of ways to get his full effect without actually paying for him.
Yeah I think the line about countering is important, since a counterspell doesn't stop the draw-4 trigger.
Also there are some confusing stack issues involving a counter:
The spell goes on the stack and so does the trigger (I assume the spell itself goes 'under' the draw). Now, if you counter it before the draw resolves, then the reshuffle option will shuffle the library before the draw resolves. Right? But if you let the trigger resolve, you can still counter and trigger the shuffle after your opponent has drawn. I guess this could matter in case they pre-rigged their deck with Halimar Depths or Jace. You can mess up their planned draw. Right?
Also, I think it might be pertinent to list the ways to "cheat" him into play AND get the draw 4 effect, at least in Standard. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Djinn of Wishes and Maelstrom Angel.
If you expand outside Standard, there still isn't much. Mind's Desire works. You could suspend him with Jhoira of the Ghitu. Or play him off the top with Intet, the Dreamer. What else? Temporal Aperture? I miss any others? There is a surprisingly small number of ways to get his full effect without actually paying for him.
This thread is for rules concerns over Kozilek and, by association, Eldrazi in general. It is NOT for discussion of strategy or storyline significance. Keep posts on topic.
I realized I forgot something kind of important for Annihilator, but I'm not 100% sure on how it's ruled, so I'd appreciate commentary. That being: 2HG interaction specifically.
I imagine it's the same as with Rakdos the Defiler which is that you choose who gets the nuking when the trigger resolves? I've never really paid much attention to the multiplayer rules when cards have combat terminology (not to mention the subtlety behind the presence/absence of the word "each" on cards, e.g. Luminarch Ascension versus Bloodchief Ascension; the point being the former gets you 2 counters, the latter gets you 1).
You choose which member of the opposing team to attack when declaring attackers. That will determine who has to sacrifice the permanents when the triggered ability resolves.
[Edit re below] Whoops, my mistake. Thank you Horseshoe_Hermit. I don't know that the distinction has mattered in any of my games but I will certainly bear it in mind. I believe I was thinking of 806.8f as the main situation it has come up is with Dread.
You choose which member of the opposing team to attack when declaring attackers. That will determine who has to sacrifice the permanents when the triggered ability resolves.
No.
806.8a Each team’s creatures attack the other team as a group. During the combat phase, the active team is the attacking team and each player on the active team is an attacking player. Likewise, the nonactive team is the defending team and each player on the nonactive team is a defending player.
806.8b Any one-shot effect that refers to the “defending player” refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the effect chooses which one the spell or ability refers to at the time the effect is applied. The same is true for any one-shot effect that refers to the “attacking player.”
Any characteristic-defining ability that refers to the “defending player” refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the object with the characteristic-defining ability chooses which one the ability refers to at the time the nonactive players become defending players.
All other cases in which the “defending player” is referred to actually refer to both defending players. [... blah blah blah irrelevant stuff that doesn't apply.] The same is true for all other cases that refer to the “attacking player.”
Emphasis added.
You may be thinking of this:
806.8f As the combat damage step begins, the active team announces how each attacking creature will assign its combat damage. If an attacking creature would assign combat damage to the defending team, the active team chooses only one of the defending players for that creature to assign its combat damage to. Then the defending team announces how each blocking creature will assign its combat damage. See rule 510.1.
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If you Sac both the Land and the enchantment, does the land react by bouncing to hand, or do they both die?
thanks!
I assume you sacrifice in the order that you choose, therefore, if you sacrifice the land first, the enchantment goes as well and returns it to your hand.
If you Sac both the Land and the enchantment, does the land react by bouncing to hand, or do they both die?
I want to say since they go the graveyard at the same time, that the Zendikon will return the land. I know it would work that way if both were destroyed (Akroma's Vengeance).
Quote from mxyzptlk »
Let's say I have a reanimation deck that already runs Stifle due to Dreadnought and Phage being in there. I can Stifle the graveyard ability, right?
Kozilek's graveyard ability does go on the stack, yes. Yixlid Jailer also keeps him from shuffling in
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This is the forty-second expansion set in a row that will definitely kill magic, going by poster complaints on the internets.
Kozilek's graveyard ability does go on the stack, yes. Yixlid Jailer also keeps him from shuffling in
You mean to say that Yixlid Jailer nukes the whole shuffle in, not just Kozi.
It would have made an interesting ability if you could stack it for Kozi to remain in the 'yard.
This thread is for competitive decks only. Your deck is not Grixis Control, as you said yourself. A serious decklist with shroud and counterspells belongs here, not a for fun/casual decklist with bad discard. Sorry, but your princess is in another castle.
0) The Basics
First, let's make sure we're all on the same page:
- This is a colorless creature that is NOT an Artifact. The typeline does not include the word Artifact. Therefore, it isn't by default. This is how Eldrazi Monument is not a colorless Eldrazi spell: it does not have Eldrazi in its typeline.
- This does work in all ways with Eye of Ugin. It is a colorless card of type Eldrazi, so it costs 2 less if you cast it as a spell while you control Eye of Ugin. Additionally, you can pay the 7 and tap Eye of Ugin to find this, because it's a colorless creature. (Unless Painter's Servant is out, at which point it's colored because Painter's Servant affects the library and your hand as well.)
- Cards with protection from a color do not have protection from this (barring the above Painter's Servant caveat). However, "protection from creatures" (Beloved Chaplain) will stop Kozilek from steamrolling 12 points of damage to your critter, blocking that creature, and so on.
- Annihilator circumvents indestructibility, regeneration and protection. If you have four permanents, and this creature attacks you, you will lose those four permanents, period, even if they're all Darksteel Citadel. The short answer why this is, is that you're sacrificing permanents in a non-targetted way. There's no destruction occurring here and so indestructibility and regeneration do not apply.
On to more specific things, based on posts I've read:
1) This does not work with Tinker.
Tinker will only let you grab a card that is an Artifact by type. Barring an effect that changes the type of cards in the library, and I don't know of any cards that do that off the top of my head, this card is not an Artifact while in your library.
2) This is not the same as Darksteel Colossus for the purposes of the graveyard.
When Kozilek dies, is milled, discarded, Pull from Eternity'd, etc., its owner (presumably you) will be shuffling your graveyard into your library. There is a window of opportunity to exile this card (such as Cremate). Darksteel Colossus's effect is a replacement effect, because you reveal it and shuffle INSTEAD of putting it into the graveyard. Here, it's a reaction to actually being putting there, rather than on its way as in the case of Darksteel Colossus.
Thus, you can use Makeshift Mannequin or Doomed Necromancer to reanimate him before he shuffles (or play with Vedalken Orrey if you want to use something else like Reanimate...)
3) Interaction with discard effects on cards. (e.g. - Frantic Search)
In short, you shuffle Kozilek and Frantic Search together when you finish discarding to Frantic Search.
When Frantic Search resolves, you perform all instructions as printed on the card, then the card leaves the stack and goes to the appropriate zone (by default: battlefield for permanent types, graveyard for non-permanents).
In order of occurrance, for Frantic Search:
- Draw two cards.
- Discard two cards (presumably Kozilek is one of them)
- Kozilek triggers and waits to go on the stack; Frantic Search is not done yet.
- Untap up to three lands.
- Frantic Search finishes resolving and goes into the graveyard.
- Kozilek's trigger goes onto the top of the stack now that Frantic Search is finished.
- Shuffle shuffle shuffle.
In other cases, such as Oona's Prowler, you discard this card to pay the cost of the Prowler's ability. The Prowler's ability then goes on the stack, and THEN Kozilek's trigger goes on top. He and the graveyard will be shuffled before Prowler gets -2/-0.
4) You don't draw cards if you play Cheatyface with this.
This is mostly common sense here. If you use an effect such as Elvish Piper, Oath of Druids or Show and Tell, you did not cast the spell. It did not pass GO and you do not collect four cards for having it bypass the stack on its way to play beatface with permanents and/or life totals.
That said, you DO get to draw if you play it for free via effects such as Brilliant Ultimatum or Maelstrom Archangel. Not paying the mana cost for a spell does not mean you did not cast it.
5) You draw the four cards before he's nukeable by removal.
I don't think much more needs said here. You announce him as a spell, you pay costs, he goes on the stack, and his "draw four" ability triggers. He's still currently a spell waiting to resolve (at which point he'll go onto the battlefield). It doesn't matter if he is countered as a spell for any reason. Only Stifle type cards will prevent the drawing of the four cards if he goes onto the stack as a spell.
6) Annihilator happens before damage.
Self-explanatory. The moment Kozilek is declared as an attacker, you choose an opponent (or opponent's planeswalker) as the attacked party, at which point he/she is the defending player. Annihilator will trigger and resolve (short of Stifle or Humility type cards lurking around). The player on the receiving end will lose the specified number of permanents. THEN, we continue on with the typical combat steps of blockers (if any), and combat damage.
7) Progenitus is special and does and doesn't die to this guy.
- Progenitus can't be blocked by Kozilek, and all damage Kozilek (Cosi?!) would deal to Progenitus is prevented, barring active effects such as from Unstable Footing or Everlasting Torment. (In the latter case, -1/-1 counters end up on the Hydra.)
- If you have Mr. I'm Too WUBRG For You (see what I did there?) on the table with up to three other permanents, that hydra is taking a trip to Frowntown and getting shuffled. Annihilator does not deal damage or target Kozilek (or anything else for that matter). Protection from everything does not mean "protection from getting destroyed, sacrificed, the foiling process of cards, eaten by babies, or angry tentacle monsters with Annihilator and me the only permanent of the defending player halp".
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Also, is Mycosynth Lattice worth mentioning in there?
.
Should be useful when I find the time to read it and fix it.
EDIT: Seems pretty complete. I can't seem to find anything wrong with it yet. Perhaps someone more experienced than I will.
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Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Nah, your brain's working. I guess it's not really worth mentioning in your post. Although I've mentioned it in mine, and you replied to that, and I replied to that, so my Lattice mention will live forever regardless!
It really only matters with Eye, and your thread isn't directly about Eye, so nevermind.
.
Lattice only affects permanents... cards outside the battlefield are never permanents
It's a triggered ability that triggers when Koz is cast, so it will go on the stack above Koz and resolve before Koz does.
Countering Koz will not remove this ability from the stack, but it can be countered itself (by something like stifle)
And maybe a few other interactions I'm not thinking of right now. Hopefully people remember Demigod of Revenge, since this ability works the same way, but it isn't something that comes up very often, so I can see it causing confusion.
Is this right? If so, that is pretty darn awesome....
It is worth pointing out that if you manage to hit them with a Kozilek, Proggy can be subject to the Annhilator effect...as in, if you only have 4 permanents left, he gets sacked like any other permanent. He can block Kozilek all day long, sure, but he can still conceivably cause a problem for them if he can find a way through.
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- Progenitus got his own section.
- Annihilator spelled out.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Also there are some confusing stack issues involving a counter:
The spell goes on the stack and so does the trigger (I assume the spell itself goes 'under' the draw). Now, if you counter it before the draw resolves, then the reshuffle option will shuffle the library before the draw resolves. Right? But if you let the trigger resolve, you can still counter and trigger the shuffle after your opponent has drawn. I guess this could matter in case they pre-rigged their deck with Halimar Depths or Jace. You can mess up their planned draw. Right?
Also, I think it might be pertinent to list the ways to "cheat" him into play AND get the draw 4 effect, at least in Standard. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Djinn of Wishes and Maelstrom Angel.
If you expand outside Standard, there still isn't much. Mind's Desire works. You could suspend him with Jhoira of the Ghitu. Or play him off the top with Intet, the Dreamer. What else? Temporal Aperture? I miss any others? There is a surprisingly small number of ways to get his full effect without actually paying for him.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Brilliant Ultimatum too. Combo!
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^ ok I see I was answered
Dream Halls and Painter's Servant
I imagine it's the same as with Rakdos the Defiler which is that you choose who gets the nuking when the trigger resolves? I've never really paid much attention to the multiplayer rules when cards have combat terminology (not to mention the subtlety behind the presence/absence of the word "each" on cards, e.g. Luminarch Ascension versus Bloodchief Ascension; the point being the former gets you 2 counters, the latter gets you 1).
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
You choose which member of the opposing team to attack when declaring attackers. That will determine who has to sacrifice the permanents when the triggered ability resolves.[Edit re below] Whoops, my mistake. Thank you Horseshoe_Hermit. I don't know that the distinction has mattered in any of my games but I will certainly bear it in mind. I believe I was thinking of 806.8f as the main situation it has come up is with Dread.
No.
Emphasis added.
You may be thinking of this:
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If you Sac both the Land and the enchantment, does the land react by bouncing to hand, or do they both die?
thanks!
I assume you sacrifice in the order that you choose, therefore, if you sacrifice the land first, the enchantment goes as well and returns it to your hand.
Legacy:
RBDark BurnBR
I want to say since they go the graveyard at the same time, that the Zendikon will return the land. I know it would work that way if both were destroyed (Akroma's Vengeance).
Kozilek's graveyard ability does go on the stack, yes. Yixlid Jailer also keeps him from shuffling in
You mean to say that Yixlid Jailer nukes the whole shuffle in, not just Kozi.
It would have made an interesting ability if you could stack it for Kozi to remain in the 'yard.
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