it seems that the wording on gaea's revenge would allow maelstrom pulse to target it (it's green, so it's not a nongreen spell) and not target it (it's black, so it is a nongreen spell). i consulted the comp rules, searching around to find nothing that would support either situation. i'm clearly not looking in the right place; i still haven't gotten accustomed to the m10 comp rules overhaul.
so two questions:
1. is pulse able to target gaea's revenge or not?
2. where in the comp rules is the answer located?
thanks!
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Yes. Maelstrom Pulse is a green spell. It can't be "nongreen" because it is green. (It is irrelevant that it is also black. It would be the absence of "green" that would make it a nongreen spell.)
There are several, though the two I'd suggest are:
105.2. An object can be one or more of the five colors, or it can be no color at all. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame. See rule 202.2.
202.2c An object with two or more different colored mana symbols in its mana cost is each of the colors of those mana symbols. Most multicolored cards are printed with a gold frame, but this is not a requirement for a card to be multicolored.
actually, i was trying to find someplace that quantified whether the fact that it is green or the fact that it was non-green won out. i found those two references on my own. is there anything more specific than those?
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actually, i was trying to find someplace that quantified whether the fact that it is green or the fact that it was non-green won out. i found those two references on my own. is there anything more specific than those?
No such rule exists, as this is simply relies on the English definition of the word. "Non-*characteristic*" simply means that the object doesn't have that particular characteristic, or the absence of the "quality" as it were. (There are plenty of previous discussions associated with this, such as "nonwhite" or other "non-*characteristic*", on the regular Rulings forum.)
So, "nongreen" simply means the object isn't green. If the object is green, then it can't be nongreen. Maelstrom Pulse is a green and black spell. Therefore, it can't be nongreen as it has the color green.
actually, i was trying to find someplace that quantified whether the fact that it is green or the fact that it was non-green won out. i found those two references on my own. is there anything more specific than those?
I don't think it has anything to do with the comprehensive rules and it isn't which of those two things "wins out"... it's simply the fact that if something has a characteristic X, it cannot be "non-X" at the same time. The spell is green because it has green in the mana cost. The fact that it is green, by simple logic, means that it is not non-green.
i don't rely on simple logic with magic. i wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something in the comp rules. i'm sure someone's going to ask it of me, so i want to know that it's definitely "duh, english!" and not "well, by rule whatever...".
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No such rule exists, as this is simply relies on the English definition of the word. "Non-*characteristic*" simply means that the object doesn't have that particular characteristic, or the absence of the "quality" as it were. (There are plenty of previous discussions associated with this, such as "nonwhite" or other "non-*characteristic*", on the regular Rulings forum.)
So, "nongreen" simply means the object isn't green. If the object is green, then it can't be nongreen. Maelstrom Pulse is a green and black spell. Therefore, it can't be nongreen as it has the color green.
how would that tie in with doom blade not targeting [CARD]putrid leech
[/CARD] ive been told this time and time again, but by what ur saying even though putrid is black, the fact that it has green total over rule the fact that its also black and so can b targeted by doom blade. that makes a lot of sense. to me since it specifically states Nonblack it looks for other color than black to be targeted. if it has black then it cant target at all.
how would that tie in with doom blade not targeting [card]putrid leech
[/card] ive been told this time and time again, but by what ur saying even though putrid is black, the fact that it has green total over rule the fact that its also black and so can b targeted by doom blade. that makes a lot of sense. to me since it specifically states Nonblack it looks for other color than black to be targeted. if it has black then it cant target at all.
The two cards ask different questions. Doom Blade asks 'Is this creature black? If yes, then I can't target it'. Putrid Leech is black, so Doom Blade can't target it. The fact that it is also green is irrelevant. Revenge asks 'Is this spell green? If yes, then it can target me'. Maelstrom Pulse is green, so it can target Revenge. The fact that it is also black is irrelevant.
In neither case is the other color 'overridden'. The other colors just don't matter in the slightest.
The two cards ask different questions. Doom Blade asks 'Is this creature black? If yes, then I can't target it'. Putrid Leech is black, so Doom Blade can't target it. The fact that it is also green is irrelevant. Revenge asks 'Is this spell green? If yes, then it can target me'. Maelstrom Pulse is green, so it can target Revenge. The fact that it is also black is irrelevant.
wait so when did the card say only targeted by green spells. it says specifically word for word. ~ CANT be targeted by NONGREEN spells. so then its actually asking if the spell is nongreen.
wait so when did the card say only targeted by green spells. it says specifically word for word. ~ CANT be targeted by NONGREEN spells. so then its actually asking if the spell is nongreen.
I don't see any difference between "~ can't be targeted by nongreen spells" and "~ can only be targeted by green spells." Either way, Pulse can target it.
i can understant the logic of rephrasing the text but this game is built under how the cards are worded. so if the card say nongreen the game looks for nongreen using last known info. the fact that ppl r rephrasing text is making the confusion.
i can understant the logic of rephrasing the text but this game is built under how the cards are worded. so if the card say nongreen the game looks for nongreen using last known info. the fact that ppl r rephrasing text is making the confusion.
We're rephrasing to try and help you. And what does last known info have to do with this? To be honest, I can't understand this post in the slightest. Could you rephrase a little more clearly exactly what your problem is?
i can understant the logic of rephrasing the text but this game is built under how the cards are worded. so if the card say nongreen the game looks for nongreen using last known info. the fact that ppl r rephrasing text is making the confusion.
I'm not sure how anybody can explain this any more clearly to you.
When you cast Maelstrom Pulse on Gaea's Revenge, you ask "Is Maelstrom Pulse nongreen?" Maelstrom Pulse is both green and black. Therefore it is green and is not nongreen.
When you try to target Putrid Leech with Doom Blade, you ask "Is Putrid Leech nonblack?" Putrid Leech is both green and black. Therefore, it is black and is not nonblack.
cool thanks every one ive got it now if thats how it is then y cant the card say ~ can only be targeted by green spells to clear all this technical rulings? lol you guys have been very helpfull to not just me but everyone confused by the wording, which was my main reason for raisiing this question so that the game can still b fun.
Since there are no official rulings for this card yet, we can use rule 101.2 of the comprehensive rules:
Magic Golden Rule:
101.2 -- In short, if two conflicting effects are happening at the same time, "cant" always takes precedence.
Taking that rule into consideration:
-Cant be the target of non-green spells or abilities > Gold/non pure green spell.
-Same reason why Whirling Dervish cant be Doom Blade'd
...but of course, I might be incorrect. Just googling around and finding answers on top of my head while playing a match
Pulse is green. Because green is in the costing cost, it is ALWAYS considered green. Even though it's also black, that does NOT take away from the fact that it is ALWAYS ALSO green. It can target Gaea's Revenge.
Because of the casting cost, the spell cannot be non-green, because it's always green. It's always green and it's always black. It's considered green and/or black, but never non-green OR non-black.
The point of this whole discussion is that the game is still bound by English. There doesn't need to be a rule defining 'nongreen'. 'Nongreen' just means 'not green'.
for the record, Ecoris' post was exactly what i was looking for. it IS in the rules. i thought it would be; the rules are pretty thorough. thanks!
Technically, that rule doesn't apply and it is inappropriately cited. That's from the portion of the rules that deals with resolving spells or abilities, and as such won't deal with your question of "green/nongreen" for the targeting restriction of the spell. (Because that's checked as part of the process of casting the spell for target legality, or one of the very actions of a spell's resolution to make sure it could ever perform the instructions of the spell.) By the time you could even "get" to the point of a spell's resolution for that rule to apply, you would have already cast the spell with a legal target and checked the target legality for the spell.
I recently had asked a judge at a 240 person tournament. He said this "if the permanent or spell has a color in itm even if it multiple colors, the most restrictive rule applies" therefore if gaeas revenge can't be targetted by non- green effects since maelstrom pulse has black in its cmc, it is black, there cannot legally target gaeas revenge. And since it cannot be targetted by non- green ability sources any secondary effect of the card also is an illegal target. Multicolor are still all of the combined colors, so the most restrictive possible outcome. Gaeas revenge cannot be targetted or effected by mp, period.
I recently had asked a judge at a 240 person tournament. He said this "if the permanent or spell has a color in itm even if it multiple colors, the most restrictive rule applies" therefore if gaeas revenge can't be targetted by non- green effects since maelstrom pulse has black in its cmc, it is black, there cannot legally target gaeas revenge. And since it cannot be targetted by non- green ability sources any secondary effect of the card also is an illegal target. Multicolor are still all of the combined colors, so the most restrictive possible outcome. Gaeas revenge cannot be targetted or effected by mp, period.
I have no clue what most of this post is talking about, but the conclusion is, as extensively stated already, completely wrong.
I can't believe that there is the potential for this much confusion over something so simple!
Technically, that rule doesn't apply and it is inappropriately cited. That's from the portion of the rules that deals with resolving spells or abilities, and as such won't deal with your question of "green/nongreen" for the targeting restriction of the spell. (Because that's checked as part of the process of casting the spell for target legality, or one of the very actions of a spell's resolution to make sure it could ever perform the instructions of the spell.) By the time you could even "get" to the point of a spell's resolution for that rule to apply, you would have already cast the spell with a legal target and checked the target legality for the spell.
like Ecoris said, it was more the precedent of the principle i was looking for in the rules. i'm guessing, though, that this could probably use some (largely superfluous) clarifying in the rules, as it seems that even people judging events can easily be confused by what seems to be multiple, opposite calls to a single condition.
I have no clue what most of this post is talking about, but the conclusion is, as extensively stated already, completely wrong.
I can't believe that there is the potential for this much confusion over something so simple!
i can. this is exactly why i asked the question in the first place! when i parsed the text on the card, i figured the correct interaction was the intent, but i noted that the wording can be rather misleading. thus, i hit up the CR for some backup, found none, and posted here.
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so two questions:
1. is pulse able to target gaea's revenge or not?
2. where in the comp rules is the answer located?
thanks!
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Yes. Maelstrom Pulse is a green spell. It can't be "nongreen" because it is green. (It is irrelevant that it is also black. It would be the absence of "green" that would make it a nongreen spell.)
There are several, though the two I'd suggest are:
105.2. An object can be one or more of the five colors, or it can be no color at all. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame. See rule 202.2.
202.2c An object with two or more different colored mana symbols in its mana cost is each of the colors of those mana symbols. Most multicolored cards are printed with a gold frame, but this is not a requirement for a card to be multicolored.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
No such rule exists, as this is simply relies on the English definition of the word. "Non-*characteristic*" simply means that the object doesn't have that particular characteristic, or the absence of the "quality" as it were. (There are plenty of previous discussions associated with this, such as "nonwhite" or other "non-*characteristic*", on the regular Rulings forum.)
So, "nongreen" simply means the object isn't green. If the object is green, then it can't be nongreen. Maelstrom Pulse is a green and black spell. Therefore, it can't be nongreen as it has the color green.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
I don't think it has anything to do with the comprehensive rules and it isn't which of those two things "wins out"... it's simply the fact that if something has a characteristic X, it cannot be "non-X" at the same time. The spell is green because it has green in the mana cost. The fact that it is green, by simple logic, means that it is not non-green.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
how would that tie in with doom blade not targeting [CARD]putrid leech
[/CARD] ive been told this time and time again, but by what ur saying even though putrid is black, the fact that it has green total over rule the fact that its also black and so can b targeted by doom blade. that makes a lot of sense. to me since it specifically states Nonblack it looks for other color than black to be targeted. if it has black then it cant target at all.
The two cards ask different questions. Doom Blade asks 'Is this creature black? If yes, then I can't target it'. Putrid Leech is black, so Doom Blade can't target it. The fact that it is also green is irrelevant. Revenge asks 'Is this spell green? If yes, then it can target me'. Maelstrom Pulse is green, so it can target Revenge. The fact that it is also black is irrelevant.
In neither case is the other color 'overridden'. The other colors just don't matter in the slightest.
wait so when did the card say only targeted by green spells. it says specifically word for word. ~ CANT be targeted by NONGREEN spells. so then its actually asking if the spell is nongreen.
I don't see any difference between "~ can't be targeted by nongreen spells" and "~ can only be targeted by green spells." Either way, Pulse can target it.
Either way, Maelstrom Pulse is not a nongreen card. Nongreen means NOT green, in which case Maelstrom Pulse is green and can target.
We're rephrasing to try and help you. And what does last known info have to do with this? To be honest, I can't understand this post in the slightest. Could you rephrase a little more clearly exactly what your problem is?
I'm not sure how anybody can explain this any more clearly to you.
When you cast Maelstrom Pulse on Gaea's Revenge, you ask "Is Maelstrom Pulse nongreen?" Maelstrom Pulse is both green and black. Therefore it is green and is not nongreen.
When you try to target Putrid Leech with Doom Blade, you ask "Is Putrid Leech nonblack?" Putrid Leech is both green and black. Therefore, it is black and is not nonblack.
One reason, and one reason only, in M:TG Cant always over-rules cant.
So by saying what CANT target it, they know what interactions will happen in the future.
Magic Golden Rule:
101.2 -- In short, if two conflicting effects are happening at the same time, "cant" always takes precedence.
Taking that rule into consideration:
-Cant be the target of non-green spells or abilities > Gold/non pure green spell.
-Same reason why Whirling Dervish cant be Doom Blade'd
...but of course, I might be incorrect. Just googling around and finding answers on top of my head while playing a match
Because of the casting cost, the spell cannot be non-green, because it's always green. It's always green and it's always black. It's considered green and/or black, but never non-green OR non-black.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Technically, that rule doesn't apply and it is inappropriately cited. That's from the portion of the rules that deals with resolving spells or abilities, and as such won't deal with your question of "green/nongreen" for the targeting restriction of the spell. (Because that's checked as part of the process of casting the spell for target legality, or one of the very actions of a spell's resolution to make sure it could ever perform the instructions of the spell.) By the time you could even "get" to the point of a spell's resolution for that rule to apply, you would have already cast the spell with a legal target and checked the target legality for the spell.
GBW Control
UWB Esper Thing Control
I have no clue what most of this post is talking about, but the conclusion is, as extensively stated already, completely wrong.
I can't believe that there is the potential for this much confusion over something so simple!
i can. this is exactly why i asked the question in the first place! when i parsed the text on the card, i figured the correct interaction was the intent, but i noted that the wording can be rather misleading. thus, i hit up the CR for some backup, found none, and posted here.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...