Greater Basilisk
Deathtouch (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.)
vs
Acidic Slime
Deathtouch (Creatures dealt damage by this creature are destroyed. You can divide this creature's combat damage among any of the creatures blocking or blocked by it.)
When Acidic Slime enters the battlefield, destroy target artifact, enchantment, or land.
What, if there is any, is the difference between the "new" deathtouch and the old deathtouch?
Does this mean that 0 damage from a deathtoucher is enough to kill a creature?
This actually might be the rules change they've been talking about, and it looks like a lot of people guessed right. Perhaps they're changing the rules so that a point of deathtouch damage counts as "lethal." This would make Deathtouch + Trample far more powerful.
EDIT: Actually it would mean deathtouch could, effectively assign damage how it likes being that 1 point is considered lethal.
I think this does mean that deathtouch+trample is a lot more powerful.
Trample and deathtouch have zero interaction. This has no impact on trample at all as trample requires lethal damage to be assigned to the blocker(s) first. Lethal damage is an amount equal to or greater than a creature's toughness. One point of deathtouch damage to a 5 toughness creature does not equal lethal damage. It would destroy the creature, but it is not lethal damage, which is what trample is looking for.
This could also be simplified reminder text, trying not to overcomplicate the things for new players.
If there is no change to how deathtouch works, I'd argue that the new reminder text would be undercomplicating things. The damage assignment order is reasonably intuitive, but only if you're aware of its existence. Trying to hide it is a surefire way to get new players to play the game wrong.
Trample and deathtouch have zero interaction. This has no impact on trample at all as trample requires lethal damage to be assigned to the blocker(s) first. Lethal damage is an amount equal to or greater than a creature's toughness. One point of deathtouch damage to a 5 toughness creature does not equal lethal damage. It would destroy the creature, but it is not lethal damage, which is what trample is looking for.
That's how it works today. This thread is about a potential rules change in M11.
Player B blocks with three 1/X creatures, of which one is of highest value. He orders the blockers in such a way that the Creeper will have to kill the other creatures before his high value creature.
M10 rules: Deathtouch completely avoids blocking order, and the Creeper can skip over to kill the high value target anyway.
M11 rules: Deathtouch makes one damage "lethal", but it still must obey blocker order. The high value blocker is preserved.
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Player B blocks with three 1/X creatures, of which one is of highest value. He orders the blockers in such a way that the Creeper will have to kill the other creatures before his high value creature.
M10 rules: Deathtouch completely avoids blocking order, and the Creeper can skip over to kill the high value target anyway.
M11 rules: Deathtouch makes one damage "lethal", but it still must obey blocker order. The high value blocker is preserved.
You know that Blocker Order is determined by the attacker, right? So in either case, the Deathtoucher can just kill the "high priority" one first. What this does help is regeneration.
Let's say I'm attacking with my Kederekt Creeper and you block with three Drudge Skeletonses. I order them 1, 2, 3. You regenerate #1 and #2, so under M10 deathtouch I chose to do damage to 3, which then dies. No matter which two you regenerate, I'll be able to kill one, meaning you have to regenerate all three even though I can only ever damage two.
Under M11 deathtouch, I have to stick to the ordering I pick, and #1 and #2 will always take 1 point each and die, meaning that you are free to only regenerate those two and leave the third alone.
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You know that Blocker Order is determined by the attacker, right? So in either case, the Deathtoucher can just kill the "high priority" one first. What this does help is regeneration.
Let's say I'm attacking with my Kederekt Creeper and you block with three Drudge Skeletonses. I order them 1, 2, 3. You regenerate #1 and #2, so under M10 deathtouch I chose to do damage to 3, which then dies. No matter which two you regenerate, I'll be able to kill one, meaning you have to regenerate all three even though I can only ever damage two.
Under M11 deathtouch, I have to stick to the ordering I pick, and #1 and #2 will always take 1 point each and die, meaning that you are free to only regenerate those two and leave the third alone.
^This.
That's the only thing the new deathtouch rule will be changing. It's a change that should have been made with the M10 rules change instead of making deathtouch ignore the new rules.
Thanks guys. Been mostly inactive in Magic for too long.
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A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Trample and deathtouch have zero interaction. This has no impact on trample at all as trample requires lethal damage to be assigned to the blocker(s) first. Lethal damage is an amount equal to or greater than a creature's toughness. One point of deathtouch damage to a 5 toughness creature does not equal lethal damage. It would destroy the creature, but it is not lethal damage, which is what trample is looking for.
This is not accurate based on what we see on M11 reminder text.
Trample means (Garruk's Companion):
If this would assign enough damage to its blockers to destroy them you may have it assign the rest of its damage to the defending player or planeswalker.
Deathtouch means (Greater Basilisk):
Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.
Suppose you put Rancor on your Greater Basilisk, making it a 5/5 with Trample and Deathtouch. If it's blocked by three Glory Seekers it's quite clear from the new wording that 2 damage can be assigned to the defending player or planeswalker.
This is not accurate based on what we see on M11 reminder text.
Trample means (Garruk's Companion):
If this would assign enough damage to its blockers to destroy them you may have it assign the rest of its damage to the defending player or planeswalker.
Deathtouch means (Greater Basilisk):
Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.
Suppose you put Rancor on your Greater Basilisk, making it a 5/5 with Trample and Deathtouch. If it's blocked by three Glory Seekers it's quite clear from the new wording that 2 damage can be assigned to the defending player or planeswalker.
I hope that's the case. Certainly makes having the Abyssal Persecutor with Basilisk Collar a better idea.
It was finally revealed today that the changes to deathtouch do, in fact, make any non-zero amount of damage dealt by a source with deathtouch lethal. The changes do, in fact, make the interaction between deathtouch and trample quite impressive. They also seem to mention that there may be a point in the future where deathtouch will be seen on non-creature cards.
Creatures with deathtouch now follow the same blocker order rule as all other creatures. However, one damage from a source with deathtouch is considered lethal, and therefore you'll only need to assign one damage to each blocking creature. This allows you to assign any extra damage to the player if the attacking creature also has trample.
They also seem to mention that there may be a point in the future where deathtouch will be seen on non-creature cards.
I wouldn't read too much into that. It would work under M10 rules just as easily.
In fact, it's already possible if you want to jump through the hoops. Copy Prodigal Sorcerer's and Opal Acrolith's abilities with Experiment Kraj and give it deathtouch. Turn it into an enchantment with the ability from the Acrolith, then target another creature with the ability from the Sorcerer. Kraj is now a non-creature with deathtouch that's dealing damage to a creature.
I wouldn't read too much into that. It would work under M10 rules just as easily.
In fact, it's already possible if you want to jump through the hoops. Copy Prodigal Sorcerer's and Opal Acrolith's abilities with Experiment Kraj and give it deathtouch. Turn it into an enchantment with the ability from the Acrolith, then target another creature with the ability from the Sorcerer. Kraj is now a non-creature with deathtouch that's dealing damage to a creature.
While it it obviously shouldn't be read into, it's nice to know that they've obviously thought about it. Of course, the only way I see it mattering is on something like:
Forking Fork RR
Sorcery
Deathtouch
Forking Fork deals 3 damage divided as you choose between any number of creatures.
How does a Trampling Deathtoucher work with Indestructibility?
Lets say I have a Primeval Titan equipped with a Basilisk Collar. My opponent has a Birds of Paradise and an Eldrazi Monument. I attack. Can I deal just 1 to the Birds and 5 to the players? Or do I have to deal 2/4?
While it it obviously shouldn't be read into, it's nice to know that they've obviously thought about it. Of course, the only way I see it mattering is on something like:
Forking Fork RR
Sorcery
Deathtouch
Forking Fork deals 3 damage divided as you choose between any number of creatures.
So... RR = Destroy up to three target creatures? While Deathtouch on non-creatures would be interesting, unless it says that it can split between planeswalkers or players, then the numerical value is irrelevant.
For instance, with this particular card, theres no reason to choose less than three targets. There's no reason to deal 2 damage to one creature and 1 damage to another.
While this is quite over powered, I can see how the design is fun.
Trance's Forking Fork
RR
Sorcery
Deathtouch
~ deals 3 damage divided as you choose among any number of creatures, planeswalkers or players.
Keeping in mind deathtouch is only lethal to creatures, the design is a lot more exciting and flexible. I probably would wait to play the other version until you had three creatures, and kill each of them with one card. While in this, I have the option of hitting my opponent if necessary, or a pesky walker.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
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Acidic Slime
Greater Basilisk
Deathtouch (Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.)
vs
Acidic Slime
Deathtouch (Creatures dealt damage by this creature are destroyed. You can divide this creature's combat damage among any of the creatures blocking or blocked by it.)
When Acidic Slime enters the battlefield, destroy target artifact, enchantment, or land.
What, if there is any, is the difference between the "new" deathtouch and the old deathtouch?
Does this mean that 0 damage from a deathtoucher is enough to kill a creature?
EDIT: Actually it would mean deathtouch could, effectively assign damage how it likes being that 1 point is considered lethal.
They can, because if 1 damage is enough to destroy a blocker, they can then proceed to cause the rest of the damage to the next blocker, and so on.
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Trample and deathtouch have zero interaction. This has no impact on trample at all as trample requires lethal damage to be assigned to the blocker(s) first. Lethal damage is an amount equal to or greater than a creature's toughness. One point of deathtouch damage to a 5 toughness creature does not equal lethal damage. It would destroy the creature, but it is not lethal damage, which is what trample is looking for.
If there is no change to how deathtouch works, I'd argue that the new reminder text would be undercomplicating things. The damage assignment order is reasonably intuitive, but only if you're aware of its existence. Trying to hide it is a surefire way to get new players to play the game wrong.
That's how it works today. This thread is about a potential rules change in M11.
Hypothetical Scenario:
Player A attacks with Kederekt Creeper.
Player B blocks with three 1/X creatures, of which one is of highest value. He orders the blockers in such a way that the Creeper will have to kill the other creatures before his high value creature.
M10 rules: Deathtouch completely avoids blocking order, and the Creeper can skip over to kill the high value target anyway.
M11 rules: Deathtouch makes one damage "lethal", but it still must obey blocker order. The high value blocker is preserved.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
You know that Blocker Order is determined by the attacker, right? So in either case, the Deathtoucher can just kill the "high priority" one first. What this does help is regeneration.
Let's say I'm attacking with my Kederekt Creeper and you block with three Drudge Skeletonses. I order them 1, 2, 3. You regenerate #1 and #2, so under M10 deathtouch I chose to do damage to 3, which then dies. No matter which two you regenerate, I'll be able to kill one, meaning you have to regenerate all three even though I can only ever damage two.
Under M11 deathtouch, I have to stick to the ordering I pick, and #1 and #2 will always take 1 point each and die, meaning that you are free to only regenerate those two and leave the third alone.
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^This.
That's the only thing the new deathtouch rule will be changing. It's a change that should have been made with the M10 rules change instead of making deathtouch ignore the new rules.
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Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Thanks guys. Been mostly inactive in Magic for too long.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
This is not accurate based on what we see on M11 reminder text.
Trample means (Garruk's Companion):
If this would assign enough damage to its blockers to destroy them you may have it assign the rest of its damage to the defending player or planeswalker.
Deathtouch means (Greater Basilisk):
Any amount of damage this deals to a creature is enough to destroy it.
Suppose you put Rancor on your Greater Basilisk, making it a 5/5 with Trample and Deathtouch. If it's blocked by three Glory Seekers it's quite clear from the new wording that 2 damage can be assigned to the defending player or planeswalker.
I hope that's the case. Certainly makes having the Abyssal Persecutor with Basilisk Collar a better idea.
Currently playing:
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BW Aggro-Midrange BW
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Creatures with deathtouch now follow the same blocker order rule as all other creatures. However, one damage from a source with deathtouch is considered lethal, and therefore you'll only need to assign one damage to each blocking creature. This allows you to assign any extra damage to the player if the attacking creature also has trample.
I wouldn't read too much into that. It would work under M10 rules just as easily.
In fact, it's already possible if you want to jump through the hoops. Copy Prodigal Sorcerer's and Opal Acrolith's abilities with Experiment Kraj and give it deathtouch. Turn it into an enchantment with the ability from the Acrolith, then target another creature with the ability from the Sorcerer. Kraj is now a non-creature with deathtouch that's dealing damage to a creature.
While it it obviously shouldn't be read into, it's nice to know that they've obviously thought about it. Of course, the only way I see it mattering is on something like:
Forking Fork RR
Sorcery
Deathtouch
Forking Fork deals 3 damage divided as you choose between any number of creatures.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Lets say I have a Primeval Titan equipped with a Basilisk Collar. My opponent has a Birds of Paradise and an Eldrazi Monument. I attack. Can I deal just 1 to the Birds and 5 to the players? Or do I have to deal 2/4?
So... RR = Destroy up to three target creatures? While Deathtouch on non-creatures would be interesting, unless it says that it can split between planeswalkers or players, then the numerical value is irrelevant.
For instance, with this particular card, theres no reason to choose less than three targets. There's no reason to deal 2 damage to one creature and 1 damage to another.
While this is quite over powered, I can see how the design is fun.
Trance's Forking Fork
RR
Sorcery
Deathtouch
~ deals 3 damage divided as you choose among any number of creatures, planeswalkers or players.
Keeping in mind deathtouch is only lethal to creatures, the design is a lot more exciting and flexible. I probably would wait to play the other version until you had three creatures, and kill each of them with one card. While in this, I have the option of hitting my opponent if necessary, or a pesky walker.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier