So, I was going to throw a combo into a deck, but recently had someone point out that there's a potential problem with it. I'm not 100% sure about it myself though because the explanation seems to contradict other rulings I'm familiar with for all things coming in to play at the same time.
Since both would simply be put into play and there is no targeting before ETB on Umbra (Since it's waved in, and because of that no target really anyways) could I combo up from a wave.
it would make sense that I'd be able to considering rulings from Warp World with Avenger of Zendikar where the lands would both make tokens and pump them. because everything sees everything else both already in play and coming into play.
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It doesn't work. Auras can only be placed on stuff that's already on the battlefield because they cannot see stuff coming into play at the same time(Don't know if that's worded right). Hence the wording on Warp World. I'll find the ruling right quick.
303.4g If an Aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack. In that case, the Aura is put into its owner's graveyard instead of entering the battlefield.
303.4h If an effect attempts to attach an Aura on the battlefield to an object or player, that object or player must be able to be enchanted by it. If the object or player can't be, the Aura doesn't move.
so, just to clarify for my own understanding the main difference is because Avenger's ability then uses the stack, seeing all of the above at the same time, therefore all abilities would go on the stack simultaneously.
Although with the umbra since there's no stack involved it would need to come into play on something, so it coming into play although it would see the charger when it came into play it would not be able to come into play on the charger because there's no stack involved and it can't see it while it's coming into play.
correct?
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so, just to clarify for my own understanding the main difference is because Avenger's ability then uses the stack, seeing all of the above at the same time, therefore all abilities would go on the stack simultaneously.
Although with the umbra since there's no stack involved it would need to come into play on something, so it coming into play although it would see the charger when it came into play it would not be able to come into play on the charger because there's no stack involved and it can't see it while it's coming into play.
correct?
It's not because of the stack, it's because of the way Auras work. In order for an aura to attach to something, that something has to be in play. When Wave is putting Umbra into play, the Hellkite Charger is not already in play, so it "doesn't see it," so it can't be placed on the Charger.
Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
303.4f. If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
All of the rulings posted here to seem to address only one portion of the question: "What can an aura do when it enters the battlefield?" Although, to me at least, that doesn't seem to be the real question here at all, which would be more along these lines: "Is the Hellkite Charger a legal target since it is entering the battlefield simultaneously?" Is there a ruling or rule out there that more specifically addresses this question? All of the rules in here saying it would not work seem to be based off of the assumption that the Charger is not a legal target, without actually clarifying why it is an illegal target.
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All of the rulings posted here to seem to address only one portion of the question: "What can an aura do when it enters the battlefield?" Although, to me at least, that doesn't seem to be the real question here at all, which would be more along these lines: "Is the Hellkite Charger a legal target since it is entering the battlefield simultaneously?" Is there a ruling or rule out there that more specifically addresses this question? All of the rules in here saying it would not work seem to be based off of the assumption that the Charger is not a legal target, without actually clarifying why it is an illegal target.
It's not because of the stack, it's because of the way Auras work. In order for an aura to attach to something, that something has to be in play. When Wave is putting Umbra into play, the Hellkite Charger is not already in play, so it "doesn't see it," so it can't be placed on the Charger.
Where do any of the rules say it is not considered as in play when Bear Umbra enters play since they are both entering play at the same time? Last I checked, there is not an "entering play" zone that Hellkite Charger is in, much as in there is no zone in which a card resides on the way to the graveyard. It's either in one place, like the stack, or another.
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Where do any of the rules say it is not considered as in play when Bear Umbra enters play since they are both entering play at the same time? Last I checked, there is not an "entering play" zone that Hellkite Charger is in, much as in there is no zone in which a card resides on the way to the graveyard. It's either in one place, like the stack, or another.
There's no separate 'entering the battlefield' zone. The problem is that an Aura can't enter the battlefield, then attach itself to something. It has to enter the battlefield already attached to something. That means that the choice of what to attach it to, if it is not already specified, is made in the instant before the Aura itself enters the battlefield. At that point, none of the other newly-entering permanents are on the battlefield either.
303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
Actually, that rule you posted contradicts a key point in what you said. According to your claim, the decisions is made "before the Aura itself enters the battlefield." However, according to rule 303.4f, "that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield" (emphasis added by myself). Therefore, if the decision is made as the aura enters the battlefield, is it not at the same time as the Hellkite enters, making it so the Hellkite is under the state of "on the battlefield" as the decision is being made as they enter the battlefield, not as they leave the stack?
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Actually, that rule you posted contradicts a key point in what you said. According to your claim, the decisions is made "before the Aura itself enters the battlefield." However, according to rule 303.4f, "that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield" (emphasis added by myself). Therefore, if the decision is made as the aura enters the battlefield, is it not at the same time as the Hellkite enters, making it so the Hellkite is under the state of "on the battlefield" as the decision is being made as they enter the battlefield, not as they leave the stack?
Not at all. The word 'as' is generally used in this context to denote a replacement effect (although it is being used in a game rule here):
614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
Therefore, you should read 303.4f as saying something like this:
If an Aura would enter the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, instead that player chooses what it will enchant and the Aura enters the battlefield. [...]
If you're still dubious, here's Gatherer on Warp World:
Taking it slowly, here's what happens when Warp World resolves:
1) Each player counts the number of permanents he or she owns.
2) Each player shuffles those permanents into his or her library.
3) Each player reveals cards from the top of his or her library equal to the number that player counted.
4) Each player puts all artifact, land, and creature cards revealed this way onto the battlefield. All of these cards enter the battlefield at the same time.
5) Each player puts all enchantment cards revealed this way onto the battlefield. An Aura put onto the battlefield this way can enchant an artifact, land, or creature that was already put onto the battlefield, but can't enchant an enchantment that's being put onto the battlefield at the same time as it. If multiple players have Auras to put onto the battlefield, the player whose turn it is announces what his or her Auras will enchant, then each other player in turn order does the same, then all enchantments (both Auras and non-Auras) enter the battlefield at the same time.
6) Each player puts all of his or her other revealed cards (instants, sorceries, planeswalkers, and Auras that can't enchant anything) on the bottom of his or her library in any order.
(And yes, this is why WW puts enchantments onto the battlefield after the rest.)
It's probably also worth noting that the stack doesn't feature here - the permanents are moving directly from library to battlefield.
Alright, a ruling is what I've wanted to see at the least, but I would still like to see, based on these rules I've seen, in which there is more definition to make the ruling more clear. The preposition "as" still does not mean "before," and it is not a question of a replacement effect here, but as I've tried to point out in various circuitous ways, I think the real question here comes from what the definition of "legal object" is in rule 303.4f, and why another permanent entering at the same time would not be a legal object, since said rule assumes that we already know what the definition of "legal object" in this instance entails to minutiae.
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Alright, a ruling is what I've wanted to see at the least, but I would still like to see, based on these rules I've seen, in which there is more definition to make the ruling more clear. The preposition "as" still does not mean "before," and it is not a question of a replacement effect here, but as I've tried to point out in various circuitous ways, I think the real question here comes from what the definition of "legal object" is in rule 303.4f, and why another permanent entering at the same time would not be a legal object, since said rule assumes that we already know what the definition of "legal object" in this instance entails to minutiae.
When a creature enters the battlefield it doesn't need a target to do so, unless specified on the card.
When an Aura enters the battlefield it needs to have a traget to attach itself to.
If both enter the battlefield at the same time, the Creature needs no target to enter the battlefield and the Aura does. Since the Creature isn't in play when the Aura is put in play it can't be targeted by the Aura coming into play at the same time. The Creature is not a legitimate target already existing on the battlefield when the Aura enters play.
If Genesis Wave stated on the card that "the caster chooses the order in which all permanents enter the battlefield", then this conversation would be moot. Then the caster can play the creatures first and target them with the Aura floating out there waiting to be put into play. SINCE Genesis Wave doesn't make this specification, the cards all enter the battlefield at the same time.
Pretty easy if you open up your closed mind.
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Well since this has moved to the point where I'm just being told to "open up my closed mind" because I don't feel a specific part of how this works has been fully clarified, I guess I should just drop it instead of encouraging anything else like that. Sorry I have a different opinion on the details of these explanations, and I hope you feel like a bigger person more apt at engaging in serious internet business for saying that.
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Well since this has moved to the point where I'm just being told to "open up my closed mind" because I don't feel a specific part of how this works has been fully clarified, I guess I should just drop it instead of encouraging anything else like that. Sorry I have a different opinion on the details of these explanations, and I hope you feel like a bigger person more apt at engaging in serious internet business for saying that.
Are you seriously still trying to passive aggressively argue the point? With judges?
Look, auras work like this (as you've been told): Played as spell, costs paid, and targets chosen, the card moves to the stack where it waits to resolve. When it resolves, it comes into play already attached to what it targeted.
Therefore, if the ruling states:
303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player's control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn't specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura's enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
Legal object means something already in play as the aura enters the battlefield because anything entering with the aura isn't in play as the aura enters with it. Since auras have to enter play attached to something, and that something has to exist, it cannot ever attach itself to something entering the battlefield at the same time. Warp World's gatherer entry is the jurisprudence to this. What more do you need?
With all due respect, your ordering is incorrect. A spell is placed on the stack immediately after it is announced. (Announce, Stack, Splice, Modes, Variable Costs, Intent to pay Alternate/Additional/Special Costs, Hybrid Costs, Targets, Damage Assignment, Mana Abilities, Pay All Costs)
As for explanations, maybe this will help: A baby cannot be born wearing clothes, even if the clothes were bought for it at the same time it was born. It has to already have been born, then given the clothes.
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Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
this confuses me slightly...how does wave then work with Ob and Avenger? I mean how does the landfall trigger since they were not in play when lands came in?
CITP things like this always confuse me when its happening at the same time.
this confuses me slightly...how does wave then work with Ob and Avenger? I mean how does the landfall trigger since they were not in play when lands came in?
Generally speaking, triggered abilities check to see if they trigger just after an event happens. (An exception applies to leaves-the-battlefield triggered abilities, as well as a couple of other situations.) In such cases, while Avenger of Zendikar might be put onto the battlefield at the same time as some number of lands, Avenger's landfall ability checks after all those objects are put onto the battlefield to see if it triggers. (Its first ability actually does the same, since Avenger has to be on the battlefield for that ability to trigger.) This is governed by the following rule...
603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, “When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.
The process is not comparable to an Aura entering the battlefield, since an Aura has to legally attach to something as part of the process of putting it onto the battlefield. So, you have to choose a permanent already on the battlefield before the Aura changes zones (else it can't change zones). And since nothing has changed zones yet, you can't choose a creature that will be put onto the battlefield at the same time as the Aura.
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So, here's the thought. Genesis Wave into Hellkite Charger + Bear Umbra.
Since both would simply be put into play and there is no targeting before ETB on Umbra (Since it's waved in, and because of that no target really anyways) could I combo up from a wave.
it would make sense that I'd be able to considering rulings from Warp World with Avenger of Zendikar where the lands would both make tokens and pump them. because everything sees everything else both already in play and coming into play.
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Although with the umbra since there's no stack involved it would need to come into play on something, so it coming into play although it would see the charger when it came into play it would not be able to come into play on the charger because there's no stack involved and it can't see it while it's coming into play.
correct?
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
It's not because of the stack, it's because of the way Auras work. In order for an aura to attach to something, that something has to be in play. When Wave is putting Umbra into play, the Hellkite Charger is not already in play, so it "doesn't see it," so it can't be placed on the Charger.
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Mr. Jiggles comin' to town and gonna take you on down to the hootenanny, so y'all best be lookin' out for a good, jiggly time.
There's no separate 'entering the battlefield' zone. The problem is that an Aura can't enter the battlefield, then attach itself to something. It has to enter the battlefield already attached to something. That means that the choice of what to attach it to, if it is not already specified, is made in the instant before the Aura itself enters the battlefield. At that point, none of the other newly-entering permanents are on the battlefield either.
Mr. Jiggles comin' to town and gonna take you on down to the hootenanny, so y'all best be lookin' out for a good, jiggly time.
Not at all. The word 'as' is generally used in this context to denote a replacement effect (although it is being used in a game rule here):
Therefore, you should read 303.4f as saying something like this:
If you're still dubious, here's Gatherer on Warp World:
(And yes, this is why WW puts enchantments onto the battlefield after the rest.)
It's probably also worth noting that the stack doesn't feature here - the permanents are moving directly from library to battlefield.
Mr. Jiggles comin' to town and gonna take you on down to the hootenanny, so y'all best be lookin' out for a good, jiggly time.
When a creature enters the battlefield it doesn't need a target to do so, unless specified on the card.
When an Aura enters the battlefield it needs to have a traget to attach itself to.
If both enter the battlefield at the same time, the Creature needs no target to enter the battlefield and the Aura does. Since the Creature isn't in play when the Aura is put in play it can't be targeted by the Aura coming into play at the same time. The Creature is not a legitimate target already existing on the battlefield when the Aura enters play.
If Genesis Wave stated on the card that "the caster chooses the order in which all permanents enter the battlefield", then this conversation would be moot. Then the caster can play the creatures first and target them with the Aura floating out there waiting to be put into play. SINCE Genesis Wave doesn't make this specification, the cards all enter the battlefield at the same time.
Pretty easy if you open up your closed mind.
Mr. Jiggles comin' to town and gonna take you on down to the hootenanny, so y'all best be lookin' out for a good, jiggly time.
Are you seriously still trying to passive aggressively argue the point? With judges?
Look, auras work like this (as you've been told): Played as spell, costs paid, and targets chosen, the card moves to the stack where it waits to resolve. When it resolves, it comes into play already attached to what it targeted.
Therefore, if the ruling states:
Legal object means something already in play as the aura enters the battlefield because anything entering with the aura isn't in play as the aura enters with it. Since auras have to enter play attached to something, and that something has to exist, it cannot ever attach itself to something entering the battlefield at the same time. Warp World's gatherer entry is the jurisprudence to this. What more do you need?
This is a Shivan Ampersand
As for explanations, maybe this will help: A baby cannot be born wearing clothes, even if the clothes were bought for it at the same time it was born. It has to already have been born, then given the clothes.
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CITP things like this always confuse me when its happening at the same time.
Generally speaking, triggered abilities check to see if they trigger just after an event happens. (An exception applies to leaves-the-battlefield triggered abilities, as well as a couple of other situations.) In such cases, while Avenger of Zendikar might be put onto the battlefield at the same time as some number of lands, Avenger's landfall ability checks after all those objects are put onto the battlefield to see if it triggers. (Its first ability actually does the same, since Avenger has to be on the battlefield for that ability to trigger.) This is governed by the following rule...
603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, “When [this object] enters the battlefield, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.
The process is not comparable to an Aura entering the battlefield, since an Aura has to legally attach to something as part of the process of putting it onto the battlefield. So, you have to choose a permanent already on the battlefield before the Aura changes zones (else it can't change zones). And since nothing has changed zones yet, you can't choose a creature that will be put onto the battlefield at the same time as the Aura.