I see this question posted in the various Karn Discussions, so I'll ask it here for everyone.
Disclaimer: I'm sure we'll get a whole FAQ on Karn when he's spoiled, but we're weeks away from that, so let's see what the world thinks as of now.
First off, here's Karn.
Karn the Released Planeswalker- Karn
+4: Target player exiles a card from his or her hand.
-3: Exile target permanent.
-14: Set aside all non-aura permanents exiled by Karn, then restart the game. After that, put into the battlefield under your control all cards set aside this way.
6
Say you're in a four player game and two people have been defeated. If you activate Karn's Ultimate, will the other two player be able to restart as well?
Karn creates a whole new game, not a subgame. Once Sharahzad's subgame is finished, you continue the regular game; that's more time-consuming than Karn's, where the new game simply ends. Plus you're likely to win that more quickly with extra permanents on your board. Using him to stall is possible, but it's not as bad as Shahrazad who has no other real purpose.
There will likely be a whole rule dedicated to his ultimate, so right now the only real answer is:
"restart the game" has no rules meaning, so it's taken as the plain English meaning.
i.e. The game restarts exactly as it started, with the defeated players returning and the same person playing first.
This is probably going to get changed, so don't hold your breath.
I'm going to agree with the return of defeated players. They were a part of the game when it started, so they remain a part of it until it finishes entirely.
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Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
I think that once those players are defeated that any cards removed by Karn should go back to them and only living players' exiled cards should be part of your starting board.
I don't think defeated players would rejoin the game. I'm sure someone can find the appropriate rules section, but once a player leaves the game, he gets to take all of his stuff with him--including things exiled, phased out, rfg'd, etc. Since he's no longer in the game, he can't be affected by in-game effects, including 'restart the game'.
A rules section for "restart the game" doesn't currently exist, to my knowledge. It will have to be a brand new entry once New Phyrexia is released. Until then, we can only speculate on what those new rules might be.
Yep, any answers to this are speculation right now. "Restart the game" will be defined in the rulebook with its own section when NPH comes out. Right now, it has no official meaning and hence for all we care, "Restart the game" could instruct you to play rock paper scissors or arm wrestle or tear your cards into itty little bits. Without a definition, the token has no meaning in the current rules.
It will need some serious clarification and there will need to be many exceptions made. For instance, the card says to restart the game, but with the cards removed from the game put aside. That would mean that, when you reshuffle and resolve mulligans, your deck is illegal.
I'm also thinking that defeated players won't get to come back. That would set a precedent whereby players not in the game are affected by the game. Granted, I would want to houserule that they do, but that has no bearing on the rules and multiplayer games aren't sanctioned anyway.
End the turn.
All players life totals become 20. (Including players previously at 0 or lower)
All players shuffle all cards they own except for permanents exiled by Karn into their respective libraries.
Remove all poison counters from all players.
Each player draws seven cards.
I could be wrong, but that would be how you reset everything correct?
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I don't think defeated players would rejoin the game. I'm sure someone can find the appropriate rules section, but once a player leaves the game, he gets to take all of his stuff with him--including things exiled, phased out, rfg'd, etc. Since he's no longer in the game, he can't be affected by in-game effects, including 'restart the game'.
Quote from Comp Rules »
800.4. Unlike two-player games, multiplayer games can continue after one or more players have left the
game.
800.4a. When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the
game, all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist, and any effects
which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if there are any objects still
controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as
soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or
she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.
End the turn.
All players life totals become 20. (Including players previously at 0 or lower)
All players shuffle all cards they own except for permanents exiled by Karn into their respective libraries.
Remove all poison counters from all players.
Each player draws seven cards.
I could be wrong, but that would be how you reset everything correct?
What about delayed triggered abilities like from Pact of Negation? Ending the turn does nothing, because the ability isn't on the stack, nor is it until it triggers.
I don't think defeated players would rejoin the game. I'm sure someone can find the appropriate rules section, but once a player leaves the game, he gets to take all of his stuff with him--including things exiled, phased out, rfg'd, etc. Since he's no longer in the game, he can't be affected by in-game effects, including 'restart the game'.
I'd say this is almost certainly correct. Once a player leaves the game, they take everything with them, including the cards exiled with Karn. To have that player brought back to life, but not get their exiled cards at the beginning of the game seems really off. Not to mention the hassle of actually making a restart possible by tracking down each player and asking if they want to rejoin.
If it would be possible to return with his Ultimate, doesn't this also mean everybody has to know, on forhand, that Karn is in somebodies deck? Because if he is this would mean you have to stay at your table untill the full game has ended since there is always a chance you can get back in it or do you have to track down every player, who is outside smoking or getting a drink in between rounds, that was in at the start?
Sound like drama at a tournament.
I'd say that anyone not present at the start of the restarted game is counted as having conceded.
End the turn.
All players life totals become 20. (Including players previously at 0 or lower)
All players shuffle all cards they own except for permanents exiled by Karn into their respective libraries.
Remove all poison counters from all players.
Each player draws seven cards.
I could be wrong, but that would be how you reset everything correct?
+ you need to remove emblems from command zone. There surely are other things to do, that's what I think about at the moment.
I have an extremely hard time believing "restart the game" is an accurate translation of Karn's text; and we're all assuming the card is real in the first place.
The way the translated text is written, restart the game happens before returning the exiled cards. Common sense would say "restart the game" means shuffle all cards you own that started the game in your deck into your library, all tokens cease to exist, life/poison becomes 20/0 (for duels), delayed triggered abilities cease to exist (not possible with current rules templating), draw 7 and make mulligan decisions starting with whoever was the active player at the beginning of the game... THEN you put the exiled cards (which are no longer exiled if they were shuffled in) into play? It makes no sense. Also, it doesn't specify "permanent" cards, which would mean you could be trying to put sorcery and instant cards (exiled from the opponent's hand) onto the battlefield, which isn't even possible.
Creating a whole section of rules text to give "restart the game" any rules meaning seems like far more trouble than it's worth for tournaments, judges and players alike.
As mentioned, this would cause Shahrazad levels of headaches, groans, inconvenience and delays, and I simply can't believe Wizards would actually print this ability. Not to mention that the ultimate doesn't even guarantee a win, especially if you didn't exile anything worthwhile.
I will be more than dumbfounded if Karn as translated here turns out to be a real card.
From a multiplayer rules standpoint, anything owned by a player who leaves the game (by dying or conceding, whatever) will leave the game immediately. This would include any exiled cards, meaning Karn's ability would have fewer cards to return, regardless of whether those players return to the game when "restart the game" resolves. This would make Karn even less powerful in multiplayer formats where you'd have to defeat 3+ players again while your only advantage is the permanent cards exiled from whoever was still alive when you popped the ultimate ability.
Creating a whole section of rules text to give "restart the game" any rules meaning seems like far more trouble than it's worth for tournaments, judges and players alike.
It's not so outlandish, new rules are added every set, some even apply to only one or two cards.
Like emblems, when that rule was added there was only one card that made them. The rule that governs controlling a player only relates to two cards, the rule about a card having the 'full text' of another card only applies to one card, and the exception that mana abilities aren't loyalty abilities only applies to one card too.
I would assume restart the game would be a shorter way of saying:
-Shuffle all zones together
-Draw 7 cards
-Set all active players life total to 20 and poison counters to 0
-Remove all effects, triggers, and abilities from the stack (not sure on the wording for that)
-Remove all emblems and extra turns.
-Continue with current players turn.
Something like that. Not sure on the wording for it.
I think this is exactly wrong, and perhaps point out how this is all barking up the wrong tree. In a true "restart", you don't "continue" the current player's turn. The "start" of a game as defined in the comprehensive rules is the shuffling of libraries. Then deciding "play or draw", then mulligan, etc. All of this should be gone through just like starting a new game; this is exactly how Shaharazad handles sub-games as well, which by the way also does not bother to fully define how to start a subgame beyond using your existing library from the main game.
The exact actions for "restart the game" don't need to be fully defined, because the exact actions for "starting a game" are already defined. The current game should simply end just like any game ends, with the likley exception of it having no result. (not a win, loss, or draw), and the Karn exiled cards being set aside while everything else is shuffled. All the 20 life, no poison counters, etc. crap is already handled by starting a new game, which includes play/draw and mulliganing as well. During the untap phase of the first player's turn is when Karn's permanents would come into play, as the start of the first player's untap phase is the end of "starting the game."
I'm actually inclined to agree with the above- they might use this as a chance to play a trick with the defined rules and do "restart the game" from outside of the scope of the rules of the game itself. IE, that instead of defining exactly what do like shuffling and mulliganing and so on, it would simply end the game, start a new game (as defined by starting a game) and play from there.
Restarting the game should be as simple as that. Ask what everything looked like right after everyone sat down at the table to play. Minus the Karn effect, return to that point.
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Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
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Disclaimer: I'm sure we'll get a whole FAQ on Karn when he's spoiled, but we're weeks away from that, so let's see what the world thinks as of now.
First off, here's Karn.
Planeswalker- Karn
+4: Target player exiles a card from his or her hand.
-3: Exile target permanent.
-14: Set aside all non-aura permanents exiled by Karn, then restart the game. After that, put into the battlefield under your control all cards set aside this way.
6
Say you're in a four player game and two people have been defeated. If you activate Karn's Ultimate, will the other two player be able to restart as well?
So they would have to rejoin which makes for a lot of fun in EDH
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
"restart the game" has no rules meaning, so it's taken as the plain English meaning.
i.e. The game restarts exactly as it started, with the defeated players returning and the same person playing first.
This is probably going to get changed, so don't hold your breath.
Level 2 Judge since 12/01/2012
-On Liliana of the Veil
Fruit don't talk. Fruit just listen. And wait.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I'm also thinking that defeated players won't get to come back. That would set a precedent whereby players not in the game are affected by the game. Granted, I would want to houserule that they do, but that has no bearing on the rules and multiplayer games aren't sanctioned anyway.
End the turn.
All players life totals become 20. (Including players previously at 0 or lower)
All players shuffle all cards they own except for permanents exiled by Karn into their respective libraries.
Remove all poison counters from all players.
Each player draws seven cards.
I could be wrong, but that would be how you reset everything correct?
GGGMGAGGG
RRRRed AffinityRRR
RGShamansGR
BWB/W ControlWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Heartless Hidetsugu
Cromat
Nicol Bolas
Sapling of Colfenor
Mayael the Anima
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
It's still up to Tabak, though.
EDIT:
Technically, it's not a new game. It's the same game, again.
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R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I'd say this is almost certainly correct. Once a player leaves the game, they take everything with them, including the cards exiled with Karn. To have that player brought back to life, but not get their exiled cards at the beginning of the game seems really off. Not to mention the hassle of actually making a restart possible by tracking down each player and asking if they want to rejoin.
I'd say that anyone not present at the start of the restarted game is counted as having conceded.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
+ you need to remove emblems from command zone. There surely are other things to do, that's what I think about at the moment.
The way the translated text is written, restart the game happens before returning the exiled cards. Common sense would say "restart the game" means shuffle all cards you own that started the game in your deck into your library, all tokens cease to exist, life/poison becomes 20/0 (for duels), delayed triggered abilities cease to exist (not possible with current rules templating), draw 7 and make mulligan decisions starting with whoever was the active player at the beginning of the game... THEN you put the exiled cards (which are no longer exiled if they were shuffled in) into play? It makes no sense. Also, it doesn't specify "permanent" cards, which would mean you could be trying to put sorcery and instant cards (exiled from the opponent's hand) onto the battlefield, which isn't even possible.
Creating a whole section of rules text to give "restart the game" any rules meaning seems like far more trouble than it's worth for tournaments, judges and players alike.
As mentioned, this would cause Shahrazad levels of headaches, groans, inconvenience and delays, and I simply can't believe Wizards would actually print this ability. Not to mention that the ultimate doesn't even guarantee a win, especially if you didn't exile anything worthwhile.
I will be more than dumbfounded if Karn as translated here turns out to be a real card.
From a multiplayer rules standpoint, anything owned by a player who leaves the game (by dying or conceding, whatever) will leave the game immediately. This would include any exiled cards, meaning Karn's ability would have fewer cards to return, regardless of whether those players return to the game when "restart the game" resolves. This would make Karn even less powerful in multiplayer formats where you'd have to defeat 3+ players again while your only advantage is the permanent cards exiled from whoever was still alive when you popped the ultimate ability.
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It's not so outlandish, new rules are added every set, some even apply to only one or two cards.
Like emblems, when that rule was added there was only one card that made them. The rule that governs controlling a player only relates to two cards, the rule about a card having the 'full text' of another card only applies to one card, and the exception that mana abilities aren't loyalty abilities only applies to one card too.
-Shuffle all zones together
-Draw 7 cards
-Set all active players life total to 20 and poison counters to 0
-Remove all effects, triggers, and abilities from the stack (not sure on the wording for that)
-Remove all emblems and extra turns.
-Continue with current players turn.
Something like that. Not sure on the wording for it.
I think this is exactly wrong, and perhaps point out how this is all barking up the wrong tree. In a true "restart", you don't "continue" the current player's turn. The "start" of a game as defined in the comprehensive rules is the shuffling of libraries. Then deciding "play or draw", then mulligan, etc. All of this should be gone through just like starting a new game; this is exactly how Shaharazad handles sub-games as well, which by the way also does not bother to fully define how to start a subgame beyond using your existing library from the main game.
The exact actions for "restart the game" don't need to be fully defined, because the exact actions for "starting a game" are already defined. The current game should simply end just like any game ends, with the likley exception of it having no result. (not a win, loss, or draw), and the Karn exiled cards being set aside while everything else is shuffled. All the 20 life, no poison counters, etc. crap is already handled by starting a new game, which includes play/draw and mulliganing as well. During the untap phase of the first player's turn is when Karn's permanents would come into play, as the start of the first player's untap phase is the end of "starting the game."
Its a quite elegant answer
Level 2 Judge since 12/01/2012
-On Liliana of the Veil