Decks: Standard - Rally, Modern - Kikichord, Legacy - Elves
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Check Doubling Season, has similar wording and the rulings spell out how it adjust "comes into play" cards. "comes into play with/ as comes into play" sets up a replacement effect that places the counters. Even planeswalkers with their loyalty counters work the same way, and therefore enter with double loyalty with this card out.
Check Doubling Season, has similar wording and the rulings spell out how it adjust "comes into play" cards. "comes into play with/ as comes into play" sets up a replacement effect that places the counters. Even planeswalkers with their loyalty counters work the same way, and therefore enter with double loyalty with this card out.
so does that mean Torpor orb stops the counters from even being put on it as well? or is the effect not considered a triggered ability
so does that mean Torpor orb stops the counters from even being put on it as well? or is the effect not considered a triggered ability
That would work too, but then you're playing a card like torpor orb instead of a creature while your opponent is playing cards like Jace, The Mind Sculptor.
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That would work too, but then you're playing a card like torpor orb instead of a creature while your opponent is playing cards like Jace, The Mind Sculptor.
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So, sorry I got a bit confused. Will Melira or Torpor orb allow this to come in as a 10/10?
Melira will (because the effect places counters on it):
121.5. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being “placed” on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it’s on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it
Torpor Orb won't (because the effect is a replacement effect and not a trigger):
614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . ” are replacement effects
Okay, I don't know if this is off-topic, but someone mentioned that this card works in a similar manner to Doubling Season and planeswalkers. So if you have the torpor orb in play, does that stop planeswalkers from entering with loyalty counters, or does that not count as an effect or something?
Okay, so I am clear, you are saying that Etched Monstrosity coming in with the counters is not a triggered ability? But that Melira's effect does not allow them because they are put on when it comes into play? This seems counter intuitive... if they are put on due to it entering the battlefield, how is it not triggered?
Etched Monstrosity
Artifact Creature - Golem (M)
Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters on it.
, Remove five -1/-1 counters from Etched Monstrosity: Target player draws three cards.
10/10
Torpor Orb
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Legendary Creature - Human Scout (R)
You can't get poison counters.
Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them.
Creatures your opponents control lose infect.
2/2
Okay, I don't know if this is off-topic, but someone mentioned that this card works in a similar manner to Doubling Season and planeswalkers. So if you have the torpor orb in play, does that stop planeswalkers from entering with loyalty counters, or does that not count as an effect or something?
Torpor Orb stops triggered abilities. The effect that puts the initial amount of loyalty counters on planeswalkers is not a triggered ability, but a replacement effect that modifies how the card enters the battlefield.
Okay, so I am clear, you are saying that Etched Monstrosity coming in with the counters is not a triggered ability? But that Melira's effect does not allow them because they are put on when it comes into play? This seems counter intuitive... if they are put on due to it entering the battlefield, how is it not triggered?
It's not triggered because it doesn't start with the word "when", "whenever" or "at". Triggered abilities are always written that way, with no exceptions. Like others have said above, it's a replacement effect that modifies how the card enters the battlefield.
It's not triggered because it doesn't start with the word "when", "whenever" or "at". Triggered abilities are always written that way, with no exceptions. Like others have said above, it's a replacement effect that modifies how the card enters the battlefield.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so I am clear, you are saying that Etched Monstrosity coming in with the counters is not a triggered ability? But that Melira's effect does not allow them because they are put on when it comes into play? This seems counter intuitive... if they are put on due to it entering the battlefield, how is it not triggered?
Triggered abilities always start with "when" or "whenever."
Monstrosity does not have the word "when" or "whenever" on it. Its first ability is a static ability(correct me if I'm wrong) that creates a replacement effect. That replacement effect changes how the Monstrosity enters the battlefield by putting counters on it as it enters.
This is why Melira, who stops counters being placed on your creatures, will stop the -1/-1 counters, but why Torpor Orb, which only stops triggered abilities(not static ones), does not.
Another note, non-mana triggered abilities go on the stack. Monstrosity's ability does not, as there is never a period of time between it being put on the battlefield and the counters being placed on it. This is also evident in the fact that you CANNOT respond to its EtB ability.
Okay, what happens if I have an Etched Monstrosity in play. I then cast clone. As clone enters the battlefield, I chose Etched Monstrosity.
Does the clone get the counters?
I think Melira's effect its way better than a replacement effect, it also seems that its a continiues effect, which implies by no means a creature can have the counter so I asume (correct me if wrong) that even if any creature have a -1-1 counter it'll fall off by this effect.
So thats 2 No, no counters on monstruosity when melira is around.
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Etched Monstrosity is a nice, big 10/10 for five mana, but "Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters on it."
Would Melira prevent those counters from going onto it? Or does entering the battlefield with them differ from having them placed on it?
Thanks for any help!
Incorrect. See flourishing defenses rulings.
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so does that mean Torpor orb stops the counters from even being put on it as well? or is the effect not considered a triggered ability
That would work too, but then you're playing a card like torpor orb instead of a creature while your opponent is playing cards like Jace, The Mind Sculptor.
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Melira will (because the effect places counters on it):
Torpor Orb won't (because the effect is a replacement effect and not a trigger):
Etched Monstrosity
Artifact Creature - Golem (M)
Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters on it.
, Remove five -1/-1 counters from Etched Monstrosity: Target player draws three cards.
10/10
Torpor Orb
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Legendary Creature - Human Scout (R)
You can't get poison counters.
Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them.
Creatures your opponents control lose infect.
2/2
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Torpor Orb stops triggered abilities. The effect that puts the initial amount of loyalty counters on planeswalkers is not a triggered ability, but a replacement effect that modifies how the card enters the battlefield.
It's not triggered because it doesn't start with the word "when", "whenever" or "at". Triggered abilities are always written that way, with no exceptions. Like others have said above, it's a replacement effect that modifies how the card enters the battlefield.
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if it stopped that kind of effect... then it would effect P. walkers as it doesn't say the ETB has to be on creatures
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if it stopped that kind of effect... then it would effect P. walkers as it doesn't say the ETB has to be on creatures
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Ahh, thank you that makes sense
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Triggered abilities always start with "when" or "whenever."
Monstrosity does not have the word "when" or "whenever" on it. Its first ability is a static ability(correct me if I'm wrong) that creates a replacement effect. That replacement effect changes how the Monstrosity enters the battlefield by putting counters on it as it enters.
This is why Melira, who stops counters being placed on your creatures, will stop the -1/-1 counters, but why Torpor Orb, which only stops triggered abilities(not static ones), does not.
Another note, non-mana triggered abilities go on the stack. Monstrosity's ability does not, as there is never a period of time between it being put on the battlefield and the counters being placed on it. This is also evident in the fact that you CANNOT respond to its EtB ability.
Yes, the clone does
So thats 2 No, no counters on monstruosity when melira is around.