I know there are a few threads about the new mechanic out there, but I'm a bit concerned about the checklist cards.
I run a FLGS with a healthy (25-35 weekly) FNM group. There are a couple of rules issues I'm interested to see how they are handled.
1 - Are we going to have to deck check everyone with checklist cards in their deck after the match to make sure they didn't have 4 checklist cards marked Garruk Relentless but only truly own 3 of them? I know this is similar to deck checking to see if someone has 5 of a card in their deck, but this just seems easier to pull off what with all the taking of cards out of sleeves to flip them and getting cards from out of the game on a regular basis.
2 - What's to stop an devious cheater from putting unmarked checklist cards in their deck and finding a way to mark them after they draw them so that they conveniently have the card that's good for that situation. "Oh look. Late game I'm sitting on a pile of lands and I got just lucky enough to draw Ludevic's Test Subject and not Mayor of Avabruk." If you believe this can't/won't happen you've never met some of the scum of the competitive Magic world.
I haven't played truly competitive Magic in well over a decade so I would be interested in what many of the more active players think might come of these issues. I'm sure there are more potential cheating based rules issues that people have thought of. Thought it might be nice to start making people and judges aware of possibilities before the set drops.
EDIT: Not really a Rumor. Mods feel free to move the thread where it belongs.
I...must say, I don't know how people will be able to mark cards during a duel and not have it be really obvious...that and if they do that competitively, they will have to bring a LOT of checklist cards and have to switch them out very often. It's just not realistic. O_o
And for the checklist cards, they will probably have to prove that they have exactly as many of the two sided card as they do the check list cards in their deck...that really shouldn't be too big of a deal.
1. you kinda mentioned it yourself: it's similar to deck checking for 5 of a card. I would guess it would require checking the transform pile as well. assuming sideboards get looked at during deck checks as well, what's the problem?
2. I don't think anyone can hide filling in a bubble on a card they are holding in their hand. I mean, you would have to have the pen in one hand, and you could tell that you are marking on a card by the movements... and i'm sure putting the cards under the table would be very suspicious...
2. I don't think anyone can hide filling in a bubble on a card they are holding in their hand. I mean, you would have to have the pen in one hand, and you could tell that you are marking on a card by the movements... and i'm sure putting the cards under the table would be very suspicious...
I'm sure creative cheaters will find a way. For example, hide a really small pen under a fingernail.
I...must say, I don't know how people will be able to mark cards during a duel and not have it be really obvious...that and if they do that competitively, they will have to bring a LOT of checklist cards and have to switch them out very often. It's just not realistic. .
You're assuming marking the checklist card means taking a sharpie and marking the dot thoroughly. I'm thinking along the lines of people finding a way to "mark" their card with say a spot of grease on their finger.
Basically, the DCI needs steadfast rules on what a "mark" on a checklist card constitutes. Then all we have to worry about is the guy that colored in 98% of their boxes with a sharpie getting DQ'd because their opponent complained that per the DCI 100% of the dot must be filled.
As a TO and FLGS store manager I'm so not looking forward to this set. Any mechanic that requires outside of the game explaination methods just leads to confusion and headache for casual players (I'm looking at you planeswalkers...).
I'm sure creative cheaters will find a way. For example, hide a really small pen under a fingernail.
Even if you go through that much trouble... you would still have to mark the card without looking too obvious. And an observant player would most likely notice.
You're assuming marking the checklist card means taking a sharpie and marking the dot thoroughly. I'm thinking along the lines of people finding a way to "mark" their card with say a spot of grease on their finger.
Basically, the DCI needs steadfast rules on what a "mark" on a checklist card constitutes. Then all we have to worry about is the guy that colored in 98% of their boxes with a sharpie getting DQ'd because their opponent complained that per the DCI 100% of the dot must be filled.
Ever take a multiple choice test where you had to fill in circles to tell the teacher what answer you were going for? It's like that. It has to be a dark indicator on the card that makes it fairly obvious it's that card by looking at it. you don't have to fill the dot completely, just enough of it to indicate that it's your choice.
1. Some people will try to roll the dice and not get caught but that goes for any tournament. It may be easier with the checklist, but if the penalties are automatic DQs and bannings, that should dissuade a lot of people.
2. Unless you're really not paying attention to the game, there's no way someone will be able to mark a checklist two feet in front of you.
Even if you go through that much trouble... you would still have to mark the card without looking too obvious. And an observant player would most likely notice.
If you don't want to get beaten by cheaters, I'd advise you not to underestimate them. The human brain is frighteningly easy to trick.
i'm guessing people will adopt a simple "stack 'em up" method of checking before matches:
i.e. simply lay out the checklist cards next to their corresponding double-facers on the table.... quick to see and easy to check. boom.
of course, you'll get scum trying to cheat around this sort of stuff - but then they could potentially be cheating anyway, and this doesn't exactly make it any easier for them.
my tip is to just be reasonably aware of what's in people's decks. people will only try and take advantage of it because it's new and unfamiliar. simply behave as if the mechanic's been around for ages and get into the habit of spending 15 seconds checking the checklist cards before a match. quick, easy, simple.
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What's to stop people from playing Swamps as morph creatures? Why don't people only put two cards back on a Brainstorm? Anybody who wants to cheat will. This doesn't change that.
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If it's at a any tournament, the player will be using sleeves. There is no way you can move the checklist out of the sleeve, mark it, and slip it back in without someone noticing.
Personally I think the way to handle this best is by making a rule as the tournament organizer that all decks meet sleeve requirements and not permitting the checklist cards. I understand the reasoning for the checklists in that there are people who don't like sleeves, and a lot of times for draft, unless I pull something that's good money, I just don't care enough to sleeve, but for any larger tournament I would go with those rules and I couldn't really see people objecting too loudly. Yeah, it means they have to buy sleeves (OH NO! not only do you have to own the card, they're going to make you take care of it too), but it makes your issues with potential cheeting no longer an issue.
EDIT: On a side note, I think there's a lot of exploitable things on the 2-sided cards that can just cause problems in general. Personally I hate cheating, and go out of my way to make sure that I have fair games and have even been known to help my opponents during a match at tournaments. I like to compete, but if it's not fair competition, there's no pride in the accomplishment of winning. The thing I think I like least about them is that even I have found myself thinking how nice it is that Wizards let's me know what my opponents are drafting now and has also provided a simple way for me to play 4 copies of cards that I may only own 1 or 2 of. I realize that people who regularly cheat will find ways regardless, but this makes it hard for those who don't like acting in a dishonorable fashion to do so. In fact, it almost punishes them for doing so by making it too easy for those who don't care, giving the honest person more of a self-imposed handicap than normal... especially in draft since it's not even cheating. That's the part that really bothers me.
Ever take a multiple choice test where you had to fill in circles to tell the teacher what answer you were going for? It's like that. It has to be a dark indicator on the card that makes it fairly obvious it's that card by looking at it. you don't have to fill the dot completely, just enough of it to indicate that it's your choice.
And how do you know this? Unless a member of the DCI committee tells me otherwise, then it isn't more than speculation that they have been forethoughtful enough to define a "marked" checklist card.
Even if that have that as their definition, people are all assuming that they have to mark the card as opposed to unmarking the card. Why not mark the card 2-3 different times with a dry erase, then casually wipe your thumb on the card to unmark the ones you don't want. The limited scope of thinking "a marked card is a card clearly marked with a black sharpie. 100% filled in on the bubble" is what will make you easy to cheat against.
Sad that only fnord seems to understand the depravity people will go to to win a few packs. I have been on a theft prevention team for years. I tend to instantly look at many situations from the perspective of the cheater/thief. Always looking for that angle to get ahead of the rules or law.
Even if that have that as their definition, people are all assuming that they have to mark the card as opposed to unmarking the card. Why not mark the card 2-3 different times with a dry erase, then casually wipe your thumb on the card to unmark the ones you don't want. The limited scope of thinking "a marked card is a card clearly marked with a black sharpie. 100% filled in on the bubble" is what will make you easy to cheat against.
1-I don't HAVE to use sleeves. Some us even played the game when there weren't even sleeves to use, and there are still MANY people that don't use them.
2-If I choose to use sleeves. I simply dry erase the cards between rounds and then crinkle the sleeve a tiny little bit when it's in my hand. Quite simple really.
Not saying any of this will ever happen, but this is simply a can of worms I'm surprised they chose to open.
If it's at a any tournament, the player will be using sleeves. There is no way you can move the checklist out of the sleeve, mark it, and slip it back in without someone noticing.
1-I don't HAVE to use sleeves. Some us even played the game when there weren't even sleeves to use, and there are still MANY people that don't use them.
2-If I choose to use sleeves. I simply dry erase the cards between rounds and then crinkle the sleeve a tiny little bit when it's in my hand. Quite simple really.
Not saying any of this will ever happen, but this is simply a can of worms I'm surprised they chose to open.
Its even simpler with sleeves. Inside the sleeve goes a movable "mark". Gimmick could be created many ways. All it would take is to slide it over to the desired creature and for the extra "oomph" a little glue stick on the back and some pressure and you are good to go.
I wouldn't think that a sleeved card is a safe card. To any magician or just a seasoned cheater, these things are real simple and the fact that it goes through the average player's mind that its impossible to do without getting caught only aids in the cheater's effectiveness.
If you are suspicious either ask to see the card to "double check" or call a judge.
1-I don't HAVE to use sleeves. Some us even played the game when there weren't even sleeves to use, and there are still MANY people that don't use them.
2-If I choose to use sleeves. I simply dry erase the cards between rounds and then crinkle the sleeve a tiny little bit when it's in my hand. Quite simple really.
Not saying any of this will ever happen, but this is simply a can of worms I'm surprised they chose to open.
The only place you don't use sleeves is casual. If your cheating in Casual, you have issues.
What's to stop people from playing Swamps as morph creatures? Why don't people only put two cards back on a Brainstorm? Anybody who wants to cheat will. This doesn't change that.
You have to reveal them at the end of the game, at competitive REL the penalty for not doing so is a Game Loss.
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I do not honestly care if my opponent plays 4 Garruk checklists in a Constructed deck while owning only one copy of Garruk. Or zero copies of Garruk, for that matter.
Now, if my opponent plays 4 Garruk checklists while having drafted only one copy of Garruk, that's more serious, but he could have added undrafted cards to his deck anyway. This isn't a problem that's unique to double-faced cards.
Hate to tell you, but about 25% of my FNM players don't use sleeves. Neither do most of my drafters.
I've never been to any event ever where a single player did not use sleeves, be it FNM, draft or otherwise. Perhaps your LGS owner should enforce this? As I believe at any DCI sanctioned event sleeves are required to avoid cheating.
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I run a FLGS with a healthy (25-35 weekly) FNM group. There are a couple of rules issues I'm interested to see how they are handled.
1 - Are we going to have to deck check everyone with checklist cards in their deck after the match to make sure they didn't have 4 checklist cards marked Garruk Relentless but only truly own 3 of them? I know this is similar to deck checking to see if someone has 5 of a card in their deck, but this just seems easier to pull off what with all the taking of cards out of sleeves to flip them and getting cards from out of the game on a regular basis.
2 - What's to stop an devious cheater from putting unmarked checklist cards in their deck and finding a way to mark them after they draw them so that they conveniently have the card that's good for that situation. "Oh look. Late game I'm sitting on a pile of lands and I got just lucky enough to draw Ludevic's Test Subject and not Mayor of Avabruk." If you believe this can't/won't happen you've never met some of the scum of the competitive Magic world.
I haven't played truly competitive Magic in well over a decade so I would be interested in what many of the more active players think might come of these issues. I'm sure there are more potential cheating based rules issues that people have thought of. Thought it might be nice to start making people and judges aware of possibilities before the set drops.
EDIT: Not really a Rumor. Mods feel free to move the thread where it belongs.
And for the checklist cards, they will probably have to prove that they have exactly as many of the two sided card as they do the check list cards in their deck...that really shouldn't be too big of a deal.
2. I don't think anyone can hide filling in a bubble on a card they are holding in their hand. I mean, you would have to have the pen in one hand, and you could tell that you are marking on a card by the movements... and i'm sure putting the cards under the table would be very suspicious...
I'm sure creative cheaters will find a way. For example, hide a really small pen under a fingernail.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
You're assuming marking the checklist card means taking a sharpie and marking the dot thoroughly. I'm thinking along the lines of people finding a way to "mark" their card with say a spot of grease on their finger.
Basically, the DCI needs steadfast rules on what a "mark" on a checklist card constitutes. Then all we have to worry about is the guy that colored in 98% of their boxes with a sharpie getting DQ'd because their opponent complained that per the DCI 100% of the dot must be filled.
As a TO and FLGS store manager I'm so not looking forward to this set. Any mechanic that requires outside of the game explaination methods just leads to confusion and headache for casual players (I'm looking at you planeswalkers...).
Or use a two part ink.
Even if you go through that much trouble... you would still have to mark the card without looking too obvious. And an observant player would most likely notice.
Edit:
Ever take a multiple choice test where you had to fill in circles to tell the teacher what answer you were going for? It's like that. It has to be a dark indicator on the card that makes it fairly obvious it's that card by looking at it. you don't have to fill the dot completely, just enough of it to indicate that it's your choice.
2. Unless you're really not paying attention to the game, there's no way someone will be able to mark a checklist two feet in front of you.
If you don't want to get beaten by cheaters, I'd advise you not to underestimate them. The human brain is frighteningly easy to trick.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
i.e. simply lay out the checklist cards next to their corresponding double-facers on the table.... quick to see and easy to check. boom.
of course, you'll get scum trying to cheat around this sort of stuff - but then they could potentially be cheating anyway, and this doesn't exactly make it any easier for them.
my tip is to just be reasonably aware of what's in people's decks. people will only try and take advantage of it because it's new and unfamiliar. simply behave as if the mechanic's been around for ages and get into the habit of spending 15 seconds checking the checklist cards before a match. quick, easy, simple.
Uh, no. People are not going to be showing opponents cards in their deck before the match.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
to the judge?
the guy who asked the question runs the event, so i was assuming he'd be overseeing and keeping stuff in check.
Judges do not have time to individually check everyone's deck like that before each match.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
EDIT: On a side note, I think there's a lot of exploitable things on the 2-sided cards that can just cause problems in general. Personally I hate cheating, and go out of my way to make sure that I have fair games and have even been known to help my opponents during a match at tournaments. I like to compete, but if it's not fair competition, there's no pride in the accomplishment of winning. The thing I think I like least about them is that even I have found myself thinking how nice it is that Wizards let's me know what my opponents are drafting now and has also provided a simple way for me to play 4 copies of cards that I may only own 1 or 2 of. I realize that people who regularly cheat will find ways regardless, but this makes it hard for those who don't like acting in a dishonorable fashion to do so. In fact, it almost punishes them for doing so by making it too easy for those who don't care, giving the honest person more of a self-imposed handicap than normal... especially in draft since it's not even cheating. That's the part that really bothers me.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
And how do you know this? Unless a member of the DCI committee tells me otherwise, then it isn't more than speculation that they have been forethoughtful enough to define a "marked" checklist card.
Even if that have that as their definition, people are all assuming that they have to mark the card as opposed to unmarking the card. Why not mark the card 2-3 different times with a dry erase, then casually wipe your thumb on the card to unmark the ones you don't want. The limited scope of thinking "a marked card is a card clearly marked with a black sharpie. 100% filled in on the bubble" is what will make you easy to cheat against.
Sad that only fnord seems to understand the depravity people will go to to win a few packs. I have been on a theft prevention team for years. I tend to instantly look at many situations from the perspective of the cheater/thief. Always looking for that angle to get ahead of the rules or law.
And how do you do this through a sleeve?
Two things.
1-I don't HAVE to use sleeves. Some us even played the game when there weren't even sleeves to use, and there are still MANY people that don't use them.
2-If I choose to use sleeves. I simply dry erase the cards between rounds and then crinkle the sleeve a tiny little bit when it's in my hand. Quite simple really.
Not saying any of this will ever happen, but this is simply a can of worms I'm surprised they chose to open.
Its even simpler with sleeves. Inside the sleeve goes a movable "mark". Gimmick could be created many ways. All it would take is to slide it over to the desired creature and for the extra "oomph" a little glue stick on the back and some pressure and you are good to go.
I wouldn't think that a sleeved card is a safe card. To any magician or just a seasoned cheater, these things are real simple and the fact that it goes through the average player's mind that its impossible to do without getting caught only aids in the cheater's effectiveness.
If you are suspicious either ask to see the card to "double check" or call a judge.
The only place you don't use sleeves is casual. If your cheating in Casual, you have issues.
You have to reveal them at the end of the game, at competitive REL the penalty for not doing so is a Game Loss.
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Now, if my opponent plays 4 Garruk checklists while having drafted only one copy of Garruk, that's more serious, but he could have added undrafted cards to his deck anyway. This isn't a problem that's unique to double-faced cards.
Hate to tell you, but about 25% of my FNM players don't use sleeves. Neither do most of my drafters.
I've never been to any event ever where a single player did not use sleeves, be it FNM, draft or otherwise. Perhaps your LGS owner should enforce this? As I believe at any DCI sanctioned event sleeves are required to avoid cheating.