But thats also the case when you sac her to her own Exploit ability, so you won´t be able to let any creature resolve its own Exploit effect by sacrificing itself, cause it won't be on the battlefield
when its trigger resolves. That can´t be.
It does, creatures with "die" triggers do see themselves dying (exemple: Blood Artist).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Ok here´s another example that (as i see it) negates your point Iona, Shield of Emeria (see errata) her third ability applies even before she really is on the Battlefield, same goes for Exploit abiltys/effects.
There is no errata on Iona... she has a replacement effect that replaces how she enters the battlefield. Like Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage for example. It doesn't use the stack, it just replaces how she enters the battlefield, so at the time she would enter the battlefield, you make the choice and your opponents don't have much to say about it.
Her third ability (which is a static ability, not a triggered oor activated ability) starts to apply at the same time that she enters the battlefield. This is different from Exploit, since Exploit is a triggered ability (which does use the stack and can be responded to).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So if i have one Sidisi and play another, can i still use new Sidisi´s Exploit ability on another creature and get its effect when i Legend-Rule her (the new one)?
In short, the Sidisi that puts the ETB trigger on the stack needs to still be on the battlefield when its own exploit trigger resolves to trigger the search part. So, assuming you put that second Sidisi into the graveyard as part of the legendary rule, you wouldn't get the search trigger, whether or not you sac a creature to its exploit trigger.
I suspect otherwise. Cards can still do stuff even when they're in the graveyard, exiled, or move between zones as a cost. See Mogg Fanatic and Soul of Shandalar as an example.
Thus, I believe that one Sidisi blows up to the legend rule, then you resolve Exploit and sacrifice something (not the Sidisi that blew up), then Sidisi's search trigger goes on the stack. It's like killing Sidisi in response to her Exploit or search trigger--or pointlessly killing Grim Lavamancer in response to its ability.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Sidisi's Faithful has two triggered abilities. The first one (exploit), triggers when it enters the battlefield. When it resolves, its controller gets the choice to sacrifice a creature (this is not a cost, just something they may choose to do or not.) If they do choose to sacrifice a creature, and the Faithful is still around to see it, this will trigger its second ability.
Players can respond to one of these abilities or the other (or both, or none.)
Cool, so if I destroyed the creature with Exploit while the first ability was on the stack, then the second ability never happens.
True.
Does the opponent choose a creature to sacrifice while the first ability is on the stack (so that I could conceivably remove the creature with Exploit and have him or her still sacrifice the chosen creature)?
The choice to sacrifice or not, and if so what creature to sacrifice, is made when the ability resolves, not before.
You don't know which creature will be sacrificed, or even if your opponent will sacrifice something or not, when you respond to the first ability. If you do respond and remove the creature with Exploit, your opponent can choose to not sacrifice a creature.
Hopefully it's now clear enough for everyone... (Me included since I asked the question.)
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Sidisi's Faithful has two triggered abilities. The first one (exploit), triggers when it enters the battlefield. When it resolves, its controller gets the choice to sacrifice a creature (this is not a cost, just something they may choose to do or not.) If they do choose to sacrifice a creature, and the Faithful is still around to see it, this will trigger its second ability.
Players can respond to one of these abilities or the other (or both, or none.)
Cool, so if I destroyed the creature with Exploit while the first ability was on the stack, then the second ability never happens.
True.
Does the opponent choose a creature to sacrifice while the first ability is on the stack (so that I could conceivably remove the creature with Exploit and have him or her still sacrifice the chosen creature)?
The choice to sacrifice or not, and if so what creature to sacrifice, is made when the ability resolves, not before.
You don't know which creature will be sacrificed, or even if your opponent will sacrifice something or not, when you respond to the first ability. If you do respond and remove the creature with Exploit, your opponent can choose to not sacrifice a creature.
Hopefully it's now clear enough for everyone... (Me included since I asked the question.)
I find those answers to be complete trash since the mothership's Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article says that you can sacrifice a creature with Exploit to its own Exploit ability and still reap the benefits. After you've finished saccing Sidisi's Faithful to itself, the sacced Sidisi's Faithful's bounce ability triggers, even though it's not "still around to see it". To me, this extends to Sidisi being as dead as a door nail when her Exploit ability resolves and still reaping the benefits.
I find those answers to be complete trash since the mothership's Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article says that you can sacrifice a creature with Exploit to its own Exploit ability and still reap the benefits. After you've finished saccing Sidisi's Faithful to itself, the sacced Sidisi's Faithful's bounce ability triggers, even though it's not "still around to see it".
Well, it looks like you don't understand again since yes, a creature that leaves the battlefield does see itself leaving the battlefield, thus triggering any ability that would trigger when it leaves the battlefield. Its ability only ceases to apply once it's already in the graveyard.
So basically, the only trash here is your understand of the ruling, not the article nor the actual ruling. If you sac Sidisi to its own Exploit ability, it will see itself exploiting itself and will trigger the search part.If you kill Sidisi in response to its exploit ability, however, it will see itself die, not having exploiting a creature yet, and when the exploit trigger resolves, Sidisi is already gone for ages at that point, so it can't see the exploit trigger resolving.
Not sure what you still don't understand but I'd be more careful before calling judges' replies complete trash while you are actually the one that doesn't want to understand how the mechanic works. The Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article is completely right about what it says, and so are the rules advisors or judges that replied to the linked post on the ruling forum.
I'd really appreciate if somebody else would step in to rephrase what I said or explain it in a better way. English isn't my native language and the language barrier is definitely still here right now, but I think my writing level is good enough for anybody to understand what I wrote. Maybe that would help if I give you some quotes from the Comprehensive Ruling, but it's already there in the first page of this right thread you are now reading...
The rules are pretty clear and it should answer any interrogation you could have with the Legendary rule: the exploit trigger goes onto the stack when Sidisi enters the battlefield, and the second triggered ability will trigger if the same card that triggered Exploit on the stack is still on the battlefield when it starts to resolve (whether it's exploiting itself or another creature, as long as it's here when Exploit starts to resolve).
To me, this extends to Sidisi being as dead as a door nail when her Exploit ability resolves and still reaping the benefits.
And I'm sorry to tell you again that you are 100% wrong, and I invite you again to ask the question in the main rulings forum to get a even more developed answer (if that's still possible at that point).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What you're saying is completely counter-intuitive to how I thought the mechanic was to play out, but what you're saying seems reasonable. Destroying the exploiting creature while the Exploit trigger is on the stack will prevent the second trigger from resolving, similar to Polukranos biting the dust with his monstrous activation on the stack? If that is correct, is there a point in the game in which I will get priority after the opponent has sacced a creature to the Exploit trigger, but before they get to resolve the ability that exploit enables?
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
What you're saying is completely counter-intuitive to how I thought the mechanic was to play out, but what you're saying seems reasonable. Destroying the exploiting creature while the Exploit trigger is on the stack will prevent the second trigger from resolving, similar to Polukranos biting the dust with his monstrous activation on the stack? If that is correct, is there a point in the game in which I will get priority after the opponent has sacced a creature to the Exploit trigger, but before they get to resolve the ability that exploit enables?
I don't want to sound harsh or anything, I'm just frustrated against myself and/or my inability to clearly explain the ruling here. I also tend to get more frustrated when we call people trash. Also, not sure what is counter-intuitive here, it works exactly the same way as Mistbind Clique: 2 triggered abilities, one that triggers when the creature enters the battlefield, the other that may trigger depending on the choice made on the resolution of the ETB trigger. If Clique isn't here anymore when the Champion ability resolves, you won't get to tap any land, since that part will never trigger, whether or not you champion a creature. The only difference with Exploit is that you can Exploit the creature with the Exploit ability itself, which adds the complexity of having to explain why the second triggered ability does trigger in that specific situation.
For your question, yes, it is a triggered ability and like any other ability going to the stack, every players get priority before it resolves. Assuming there is nothing that prevents you from responding (split second or something like Grand Abolisher), you sure can respond to the second triggered ability, but if you don't Stifle it, it will eventually resolve after.
Monstrosity uses a different wording but yes, the creature can't see itself becomes monstrous if it isn't here when the Monstrosity activated ability resolves. However, the actual real problem is that the creature will never really become monstrous if it's not here anymore when the trigger resolves.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What you're saying is completely counter-intuitive to how I thought the mechanic was to play out, but what you're saying seems reasonable. Destroying the exploiting creature while the Exploit trigger is on the stack will prevent the second trigger from resolving, similar to Polukranos biting the dust with his monstrous activation on the stack? If that is correct, is there a point in the game in which I will get priority after the opponent has sacced a creature to the Exploit trigger, but before they get to resolve the ability that exploit enables?
I don't want to sound harsh or anything, I'm just frustrated against myself and/or my inability to clearly explain the ruling here. I also tend to get more frustrated when we call people trash. Also, not sure what is counter-intuitive here, it works exactly the same way as Mistbind Clique: 2 triggered abilities, one that triggers when the creature enters the battlefield, the other that may trigger depending on the choice made on the resolution of the ETB trigger. If Clique isn't here anymore when the Champion ability resolves, you won't get to tap any land, since that part will never trigger, whether or not you champion a creature. The only difference with Exploit is that you can Exploit the creature with the Exploit ability itself, which adds the complexity of having to explain why the second triggered ability does trigger in that specific situation.
For your question, yes, it is a triggered ability and like any other ability going to the stack, every players get priority before it resolves. Assuming there is nothing that prevents you from responding (split second or something like Grand Abolisher), you sure can respond to the second triggered ability, but if you don't Stifle it, it will eventually resolve after.
Monstrosity uses a different wording but yes, the creature can't see itself becomes monstrous if it isn't here when the Monstrosity activated ability resolves. However, the actual real problem is that the creature will never really become monstrous if it's not here anymore when the trigger resolves.
...OK, I'm back from that.
Turns out that even the MTGS page on Champion does not cover whether a "Whenever a creature is championed by this" ability always triggers if something is exiled by the ETB Champion trigger, even if the Champion has left the battlefield at this point. It legitimately says that you can exile a creature with an ETB Champion ability even if the creature with Champion has LTB by then! (In this case, you just lost what you exiled and you'll never get it back.)
This is a case of ambiguity for me. Are the Rulings on that page sourced from any of the references on the same page? If so, I'll check them. If not, I'd better ask a judge about the answer (which, based on your comments, is probably "No, you don't tap their lands if Mistbind Clique isn't on the battlefield").
This has honestly never happened to me whenever I play Modern Faeries--opponents always either killed the only other Faerie on the board at the time (so Mistbind cannot Champion and commits suicide) or killed the Faerie that I was the most likely to Champion (so I Championed a better Faerie instead instead of the wuss I wanted to boot). They always saved the removal spell for Mistbind after Mistbind Championed (i.e. they floated mana, then killed Mistbind).
You've successfully convinced me that Champion and Exploit should work the same way...which means that, since Exploit is so floozy, Champion starts looking similarly floozy to me.
IMO, there needs to be a firm, officially enough published ruling (preferably on something that Gatherer and MagicCards.Info will display) that clears up this ambiguity.
I find those answers to be complete trash since the mothership's Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article says that you can sacrifice a creature with Exploit to its own Exploit ability and still reap the benefits. After you've finished saccing Sidisi's Faithful to itself, the sacced Sidisi's Faithful's bounce ability triggers, even though it's not "still around to see it".
Well, it looks like you don't understand again since yes, a creature that leaves the battlefield does see itself leaving the battlefield, thus triggering any ability that would trigger when it leaves the battlefield. Its ability only ceases to apply once it's already in the graveyard.
So basically, the only trash here is your understand of the ruling, not the article nor the actual ruling. If you sac Sidisi to its own Exploit ability, it will see itself exploiting itself and will trigger the search part.If you kill Sidisi in response to its exploit ability, however, it will see itself die, not having exploiting a creature yet, and when the exploit trigger resolves, Sidisi is already gone for ages at that point, so it can't see the exploit trigger resolving.
Not sure what you still don't understand but I'd be more careful before calling judges' replies complete trash while you are actually the one that doesn't want to understand how the mechanic works. The Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article is completely right about what it says, and so are the rules advisors or judges that replied to the linked post on the ruling forum.
I'd really appreciate if somebody else would step in to rephrase what I said or explain it in a better way. English isn't my native language and the language barrier is definitely still here right now, but I think my writing level is good enough for anybody to understand what I wrote. Maybe that would help if I give you some quotes from the Comprehensive Ruling, but it's already there in the first page of this right thread you are now reading...
The rules are pretty clear and it should answer any interrogation you could have with the Legendary rule: the exploit trigger goes onto the stack when Sidisi enters the battlefield, and the second triggered ability will trigger if the same card that triggered Exploit on the stack is still on the battlefield when it starts to resolve (whether it's exploiting itself or another creature, as long as it's here when Exploit starts to resolve).
To me, this extends to Sidisi being as dead as a door nail when her Exploit ability resolves and still reaping the benefits.
And I'm sorry to tell you again that you are 100% wrong, and I invite you again to ask the question in the main rulings forum to get a even more developed answer (if that's still possible at that point).
The trash in that thread is the posters' wordings and omissions. Whenever I read "still around to see it", I expect them to mean that the ability will only trigger if the creature it comes from is on the battlefield at the time. Clearly, anything that Exploits itself is not on the battlefield at the time that their "whenever a creature is exploited by..." ability goes on the stack. If willdice actually explained why orlouge82's "Cool, so if I destroyed the creature with Exploit while the first ability was on the stack, then the second ability never happens" was true instead of saying it was true without elaborating why, I likely would not have complained.
I only asked so late because neither the DTK Mechanics article nor the DTK Release Notes covered my question. The DTK Mechanics article is completely right...and didn't answer my question. The DTK Release Notes are completely right...and didn't answer my question.
So far, I know that if I play Zombie Sidisi #2 while Zombie Sidisi #1 is already on the battlefield, I lose one Zombie Sidisi to the Legend Rule before I can resolve Exploit. Thus, if I want a chance of searching my library, I have to sacrifice the last Sidisi or sacrifice another creature.
Maybe I can buy the explanation that the "whenever a creature is exploited by..." ability is a LTB ability that has to check the state immediately prior to when the ability went on the stack, with a strong emphasis on immediately. After all, I can buy Blood Artist triggering 3 times if it dies at the same time as 2 other creatures, but only triggering once if it got Lightning Bolted in response to Wrath of God.
...Welp, assuming you're all correct, Exploit just got a lot worse than I thought. Goodbye, Minister of Pain's chances of being Modern-playable.
Exploit was never intended to be completely broken, sorry if that's what you thought.
I'm done with explanations now, just go in the true ruling forums if you still don't believe me, you can also keep playing it wrong until someone calls a judge in a tournament. But I think you get it now and yes, you are right in saying that the WotC article didn't actually cover this part up, because it's pretty obvious IMHO...
There won't be any Gatherer ruling because there is actually no ambiguity, creatures have been seeing themselves dying since Magic is a game for the most part, and abilities have also been working while creatures are on the battlefield for decades too. That's why I say that it should be obvious, and also why you don't see any precision on Mistbind Clique on Gatherer although it has been around for quite some time. The reason why people don't even discuss the second triggered ability is because they understand the game. Blood Artist doesn't trigger when it's in my hand. It doesn't trigger when it's in my deck, and it doesn't trigger if it's sitting in my graveyard either. It triggers when it is on the battlefield. That's just how Magic works. Genesis is an exception to this. And look how it is actually specified in the card text. Carrionette. And so many more. But for the 98%+ other cards... it works while it's on the battlefield. People usually don't argue about this. But it's all black on white in the CR and I really encourage you to create a thread in the rulings forum if you are not yet satisfied with the provided quotes on page 1 of this thread. You can also search in the CR by yourself, it's actually really friendly-user.
I'm sorry if you were playing Mistbind Clique wrong but it's all over the web, first search result is even on the official community forums... http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/1927621
People saying otherwise aren't real Magic Judges and don't know what they are talking about. Judges can be wrong sometimes too, so you can ask on the Magic Judges forums too if you wish to to get a O ruling by a L3+ (not that it is necessary), Natedogg here on MTGS is also providing O rulings.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My question is how the ability resolves on the stack.
so, I play sidisi. Enter battlefield trigger goes off. no response from opponent. I choose a non sidisi target to exploit. opponent kills sidisi in response to choosing to sacrifice said creature. sidisi is no longer on the battlefield. do I get to choose not to sacrifice? do I get to search for a card? or did I get two for one'd?
My question is how the ability resolves on the stack.
so, I play sidisi. Enter battlefield trigger goes off. no response from opponent. I choose a non sidisi target to exploit. opponent kills sidisi in response to choosing to sacrifice said creature. sidisi is no longer on the battlefield. do I get to choose not to sacrifice? do I get to search for a card? or did I get two for one'd?
The correct ordering of events is as follows:
1) Sidisi enters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one. (Note that your opponent will not get a chance to respond at this point.)
5) If you chose a creature to sacrifice, that creature is sacrificed.
6) Regardless of whether or not Sidisi was the chosen creature to be sacrificed, Sidisi's second triggered ability will go onto the stack.
If your opponent wants to kill Sidisi before the second ability resolves, then the following will have to happen instead:
1) Sidisi emters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass.
4) Your opponent gets priority and casts some kill spell.
5) Your opponent gets priority and passes. You get priority and pass.
6) The kill spell resolves, killing Sidisi. At this point, the exploit trigger is still on the stack, waiting to resolve.
7) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
8) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one.
9) Because Sidisi is no longer on the battlefield at this point, there is no second ability that triggers.
In other words, you will still choose whether or not you want to sacrifice a creature. The choice of whether to sacrifice a creature is not done until resolution, so if your opponent asks which creature you want to sacrifice (if any), they're assumed to want to pass priority until after the resolution of the exploit ability.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
My question is how the ability resolves on the stack.
so, I play sidisi. Enter battlefield trigger goes off. no response from opponent. I choose a non sidisi target to exploit. opponent kills sidisi in response to choosing to sacrifice said creature. sidisi is no longer on the battlefield. do I get to choose not to sacrifice? do I get to search for a card? or did I get two for one'd?
The correct ordering of events is as follows:
1) Sidisi enters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one. (Note that your opponent will not get a chance to respond at this point.)
5) If you chose a creature to sacrifice, that creature is sacrificed.
6) Regardless of whether or not Sidisi was the chosen creature to be sacrificed, Sidisi's second triggered ability will go onto the stack.
If your opponent wants to kill Sidisi before the second ability resolves, then the following will have to happen instead:
1) Sidisi emters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass.
4) Your opponent gets priority and casts some kill spell.
5) Your opponent gets priority and passes. You get priority and pass.
6) The kill spell resolves, killing Sidisi. At this point, the exploit trigger is still on the stack, waiting to resolve.
7) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
8) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one.
9) Because Sidisi is no longer on the battlefield at this point, there is no second ability that triggers.
In other words, you will still choose whether or not you want to sacrifice a creature. The choice of whether to sacrifice a creature is not done until resolution, so if your opponent asks which creature you want to sacrifice (if any), they're assumed to want to pass priority until after the resolution of the exploit ability.
What you've said is essentially correct, except for one thing that I'm pointing out because I'm not positive I understand from you correctly.
What is "Pass" supposed to mean? If Sidisi hits the Battlefield, you must choose if you are going to sacrifice a creature or not.
You cannot act as if you are not going to and then right after choose to sacrifice something. I do not know if "Pass" has an alternative meaning, but it sounds like you're saying that you can say no and then sacrifice. That is not how it works, if that is the case. You must declare that you will take advantage of Exploit and then, and only then, can the opponent react to it to try and either stop it or get rid of Sidisi so it cannot resolve without her on the field. If you choose not to use Exploit when it comes onto the Battlefield, you do not get to choose to sacrifice afterwards.
I may be inferring wrong from you, but if it's your own word there, I'd recommend saying something other than "Pass", which sounds like you're saying you can ignore it/say no and then proceed to do it. And just to make sure that everyone understand the Legend rule, for good, the second Sidisi you play is the only one that can resolve, as long as it was there at the time that a creature was sacrificed for Exploit, not when Exploit triggers.
It is the one initiating the Exploit effect and that only happens after the Legend rule forces you to get rid of it or the other, and the Legend rule comes into play only after the creature has been cast onto the Battlefield. You cannot choose to Exploit the second Sidisi if you choose to destroy it by the Legend rule. Because it does hit the Battlefield, sacrificing a creature can happen, but as in the same instance of a spell killing Sidisi before Exploiting herself, she's no longer there to see a creature or herself die to allow you to search for a card.
The second Sidisi must have been on the field during the time that the choice of a creature, or herself, to Exploit was made for the second effect to resolve. Choosing herself to Exploit resolves the trigger. If she's not on the field when you've chosen a creature to Exploit, it does not count, since the card needs her present on the field to act as her doing the effect. All that happens is another creature dies instead, if you choose to sacrifice at all and, of course, you cannot Exploit the first Sidisi you had because the Legend rule took effect and destroyed it before it could be a legal target for Exploit or for the resolution of the effect.
There should be no question of this, but, just in case this means that you do not get two searches. I shouldn't even have to say that, but as we clearly see, this argument is a testament to just how much a card can be interpreted and/or abused, depending on your point of view.
"Pass" means you don't respond to the top object of the stack or to a phase change. He specified in both scenarios that when Exploit resolves, the controller chooses to sac or not (#5 in the first situation, #8 in the second).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So in the second scenario above, where the opponent chooses to kill Sidisi, can Sidisi herself be exploited?
No. You choose the creature to be exploited when Sidisi's Exploit trigger resolves. As Sisidi is already dead at this point, she can't be chosen to be sacrificed.
It does, creatures with "die" triggers do see themselves dying (exemple: Blood Artist).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
There is no errata on Iona... she has a replacement effect that replaces how she enters the battlefield. Like Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage for example. It doesn't use the stack, it just replaces how she enters the battlefield, so at the time she would enter the battlefield, you make the choice and your opponents don't have much to say about it.
Her third ability (which is a static ability, not a triggered oor activated ability) starts to apply at the same time that she enters the battlefield. This is different from Exploit, since Exploit is a triggered ability (which does use the stack and can be responded to).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I suspect otherwise. Cards can still do stuff even when they're in the graveyard, exiled, or move between zones as a cost. See Mogg Fanatic and Soul of Shandalar as an example.
Thus, I believe that one Sidisi blows up to the legend rule, then you resolve Exploit and sacrifice something (not the Sidisi that blew up), then Sidisi's search trigger goes on the stack. It's like killing Sidisi in response to her Exploit or search trigger--or pointlessly killing Grim Lavamancer in response to its ability.
Yes... what's your point here?
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/601185-exploit-exploit-ability-separate-abilities
Here's is the relevant part: And... Hopefully it's now clear enough for everyone... (Me included since I asked the question.)
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I find those answers to be complete trash since the mothership's Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article says that you can sacrifice a creature with Exploit to its own Exploit ability and still reap the benefits. After you've finished saccing Sidisi's Faithful to itself, the sacced Sidisi's Faithful's bounce ability triggers, even though it's not "still around to see it". To me, this extends to Sidisi being as dead as a door nail when her Exploit ability resolves and still reaping the benefits.
For the matter, the Dragons of Tarkir Release Notes don't cover the Sidisi + Exploit + Legend Rule question.
So basically, the only trash here is your understand of the ruling, not the article nor the actual ruling. If you sac Sidisi to its own Exploit ability, it will see itself exploiting itself and will trigger the search part. If you kill Sidisi in response to its exploit ability, however, it will see itself die, not having exploiting a creature yet, and when the exploit trigger resolves, Sidisi is already gone for ages at that point, so it can't see the exploit trigger resolving.
Not sure what you still don't understand but I'd be more careful before calling judges' replies complete trash while you are actually the one that doesn't want to understand how the mechanic works. The Dragons of Tarkir Mechanics article is completely right about what it says, and so are the rules advisors or judges that replied to the linked post on the ruling forum.
I'd really appreciate if somebody else would step in to rephrase what I said or explain it in a better way. English isn't my native language and the language barrier is definitely still here right now, but I think my writing level is good enough for anybody to understand what I wrote. Maybe that would help if I give you some quotes from the Comprehensive Ruling, but it's already there in the first page of this right thread you are now reading...
The rules are pretty clear and it should answer any interrogation you could have with the Legendary rule: the exploit trigger goes onto the stack when Sidisi enters the battlefield, and the second triggered ability will trigger if the same card that triggered Exploit on the stack is still on the battlefield when it starts to resolve (whether it's exploiting itself or another creature, as long as it's here when Exploit starts to resolve).
And I'm sorry to tell you again that you are 100% wrong, and I invite you again to ask the question in the main rulings forum to get a even more developed answer (if that's still possible at that point).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What you're saying is completely counter-intuitive to how I thought the mechanic was to play out, but what you're saying seems reasonable. Destroying the exploiting creature while the Exploit trigger is on the stack will prevent the second trigger from resolving, similar to Polukranos biting the dust with his monstrous activation on the stack? If that is correct, is there a point in the game in which I will get priority after the opponent has sacced a creature to the Exploit trigger, but before they get to resolve the ability that exploit enables?
For your question, yes, it is a triggered ability and like any other ability going to the stack, every players get priority before it resolves. Assuming there is nothing that prevents you from responding (split second or something like Grand Abolisher), you sure can respond to the second triggered ability, but if you don't Stifle it, it will eventually resolve after.
Monstrosity uses a different wording but yes, the creature can't see itself becomes monstrous if it isn't here when the Monstrosity activated ability resolves. However, the actual real problem is that the creature will never really become monstrous if it's not here anymore when the trigger resolves.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
OK, let me look at all the Champion Mistbind Clique rulings...
...wowee, there are actually NO rulings associated specifically with Mistbind Clique.
Sounds like I'm looking up Champion rulings.
...OK, I'm back from that.
Turns out that even the MTGS page on Champion does not cover whether a "Whenever a creature is championed by this" ability always triggers if something is exiled by the ETB Champion trigger, even if the Champion has left the battlefield at this point. It legitimately says that you can exile a creature with an ETB Champion ability even if the creature with Champion has LTB by then! (In this case, you just lost what you exiled and you'll never get it back.)
This is a case of ambiguity for me. Are the Rulings on that page sourced from any of the references on the same page? If so, I'll check them. If not, I'd better ask a judge about the answer (which, based on your comments, is probably "No, you don't tap their lands if Mistbind Clique isn't on the battlefield").
This has honestly never happened to me whenever I play Modern Faeries--opponents always either killed the only other Faerie on the board at the time (so Mistbind cannot Champion and commits suicide) or killed the Faerie that I was the most likely to Champion (so I Championed a better Faerie instead instead of the wuss I wanted to boot). They always saved the removal spell for Mistbind after Mistbind Championed (i.e. they floated mana, then killed Mistbind).
You've successfully convinced me that Champion and Exploit should work the same way...which means that, since Exploit is so floozy, Champion starts looking similarly floozy to me.
Here's another webpage that tries to answer the Champion(/Exploit) ruling. Sounds like I'm not the only person confused about this--thesunneversets was another confused poster on that page.
IMO, there needs to be a firm, officially enough published ruling (preferably on something that Gatherer and MagicCards.Info will display) that clears up this ambiguity.
The trash in that thread is the posters' wordings and omissions. Whenever I read "still around to see it", I expect them to mean that the ability will only trigger if the creature it comes from is on the battlefield at the time. Clearly, anything that Exploits itself is not on the battlefield at the time that their "whenever a creature is exploited by..." ability goes on the stack. If willdice actually explained why orlouge82's "Cool, so if I destroyed the creature with Exploit while the first ability was on the stack, then the second ability never happens" was true instead of saying it was true without elaborating why, I likely would not have complained.
I only asked so late because neither the DTK Mechanics article nor the DTK Release Notes covered my question. The DTK Mechanics article is completely right...and didn't answer my question. The DTK Release Notes are completely right...and didn't answer my question.
So far, I know that if I play Zombie Sidisi #2 while Zombie Sidisi #1 is already on the battlefield, I lose one Zombie Sidisi to the Legend Rule before I can resolve Exploit. Thus, if I want a chance of searching my library, I have to sacrifice the last Sidisi or sacrifice another creature.
Maybe I can buy the explanation that the "whenever a creature is exploited by..." ability is a LTB ability that has to check the state immediately prior to when the ability went on the stack, with a strong emphasis on immediately. After all, I can buy Blood Artist triggering 3 times if it dies at the same time as 2 other creatures, but only triggering once if it got Lightning Bolted in response to Wrath of God.
...Welp, assuming you're all correct, Exploit just got a lot worse than I thought. Goodbye, Minister of Pain's chances of being Modern-playable.
I'm done with explanations now, just go in the true ruling forums if you still don't believe me, you can also keep playing it wrong until someone calls a judge in a tournament. But I think you get it now and yes, you are right in saying that the WotC article didn't actually cover this part up, because it's pretty obvious IMHO...
There won't be any Gatherer ruling because there is actually no ambiguity, creatures have been seeing themselves dying since Magic is a game for the most part, and abilities have also been working while creatures are on the battlefield for decades too. That's why I say that it should be obvious, and also why you don't see any precision on Mistbind Clique on Gatherer although it has been around for quite some time. The reason why people don't even discuss the second triggered ability is because they understand the game. Blood Artist doesn't trigger when it's in my hand. It doesn't trigger when it's in my deck, and it doesn't trigger if it's sitting in my graveyard either. It triggers when it is on the battlefield. That's just how Magic works. Genesis is an exception to this. And look how it is actually specified in the card text. Carrionette. And so many more. But for the 98%+ other cards... it works while it's on the battlefield. People usually don't argue about this. But it's all black on white in the CR and I really encourage you to create a thread in the rulings forum if you are not yet satisfied with the provided quotes on page 1 of this thread. You can also search in the CR by yourself, it's actually really friendly-user.
I'm sorry if you were playing Mistbind Clique wrong but it's all over the web, first search result is even on the official community forums... http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/1927621
People saying otherwise aren't real Magic Judges and don't know what they are talking about. Judges can be wrong sometimes too, so you can ask on the Magic Judges forums too if you wish to to get a O ruling by a L3+ (not that it is necessary), Natedogg here on MTGS is also providing O rulings.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Min 3:25
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/davidgreene-03182015-judges-corner-dragons-of-tarkir-mechanics/
so, I play sidisi. Enter battlefield trigger goes off. no response from opponent. I choose a non sidisi target to exploit. opponent kills sidisi in response to choosing to sacrifice said creature. sidisi is no longer on the battlefield. do I get to choose not to sacrifice? do I get to search for a card? or did I get two for one'd?
The correct ordering of events is as follows:
1) Sidisi enters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one. (Note that your opponent will not get a chance to respond at this point.)
5) If you chose a creature to sacrifice, that creature is sacrificed.
6) Regardless of whether or not Sidisi was the chosen creature to be sacrificed, Sidisi's second triggered ability will go onto the stack.
If your opponent wants to kill Sidisi before the second ability resolves, then the following will have to happen instead:
1) Sidisi emters the battlefield.
2) Sidisi's exploit ability triggers.
3) You get priority and pass.
4) Your opponent gets priority and casts some kill spell.
5) Your opponent gets priority and passes. You get priority and pass.
6) The kill spell resolves, killing Sidisi. At this point, the exploit trigger is still on the stack, waiting to resolve.
7) You get priority and pass. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
8) The exploit trigger resolves. At this point, you choose whether or not you will a sacrifice a creature, and if so, which one.
9) Because Sidisi is no longer on the battlefield at this point, there is no second ability that triggers.
In other words, you will still choose whether or not you want to sacrifice a creature. The choice of whether to sacrifice a creature is not done until resolution, so if your opponent asks which creature you want to sacrifice (if any), they're assumed to want to pass priority until after the resolution of the exploit ability.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
What you've said is essentially correct, except for one thing that I'm pointing out because I'm not positive I understand from you correctly.
What is "Pass" supposed to mean? If Sidisi hits the Battlefield, you must choose if you are going to sacrifice a creature or not.
You cannot act as if you are not going to and then right after choose to sacrifice something. I do not know if "Pass" has an alternative meaning, but it sounds like you're saying that you can say no and then sacrifice. That is not how it works, if that is the case. You must declare that you will take advantage of Exploit and then, and only then, can the opponent react to it to try and either stop it or get rid of Sidisi so it cannot resolve without her on the field. If you choose not to use Exploit when it comes onto the Battlefield, you do not get to choose to sacrifice afterwards.
I may be inferring wrong from you, but if it's your own word there, I'd recommend saying something other than "Pass", which sounds like you're saying you can ignore it/say no and then proceed to do it. And just to make sure that everyone understand the Legend rule, for good, the second Sidisi you play is the only one that can resolve, as long as it was there at the time that a creature was sacrificed for Exploit, not when Exploit triggers.
It is the one initiating the Exploit effect and that only happens after the Legend rule forces you to get rid of it or the other, and the Legend rule comes into play only after the creature has been cast onto the Battlefield. You cannot choose to Exploit the second Sidisi if you choose to destroy it by the Legend rule. Because it does hit the Battlefield, sacrificing a creature can happen, but as in the same instance of a spell killing Sidisi before Exploiting herself, she's no longer there to see a creature or herself die to allow you to search for a card.
The second Sidisi must have been on the field during the time that the choice of a creature, or herself, to Exploit was made for the second effect to resolve. Choosing herself to Exploit resolves the trigger. If she's not on the field when you've chosen a creature to Exploit, it does not count, since the card needs her present on the field to act as her doing the effect. All that happens is another creature dies instead, if you choose to sacrifice at all and, of course, you cannot Exploit the first Sidisi you had because the Legend rule took effect and destroyed it before it could be a legal target for Exploit or for the resolution of the effect.
There should be no question of this, but, just in case this means that you do not get two searches. I shouldn't even have to say that, but as we clearly see, this argument is a testament to just how much a card can be interpreted and/or abused, depending on your point of view.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
to get draw effect some how? nice
edit: but don't get search a card from exploit
No. You choose the creature to be exploited when Sidisi's Exploit trigger resolves. As Sisidi is already dead at this point, she can't be chosen to be sacrificed.
Yes.
Yep.