I don't understand the *** hate in this thread- *** won't go away, it's a staple and is perfectly in flavor for white. It's way out of flavor for black, which is the reason it's in PC with all the cards in the "wrong" colors.
As for the card, obviously it'll be good. It may be enough to push MBC up to being competitive. But I can't imagine there will be too many decks that will want 8 wrath effects, and even if there are white just got another great one anyway in the PC planeshifted cards(the Drop of Honey copy).
At least they warped Wrath into a color that deserves it. I was shivering with fear that we'd see something like that in, say, green.
I'm a white player, so meh... seeing how this thing is ultra-rare, it's gonna be a pain to collect a playset.
While playing magic today at my house, we were joking that WotC would indeed give green ***. My worse fear was WotC would give Black Disenchant. That would be a disaster.
I do wonder if white will get counter spells or card draw because that's about what it will take if they want to balance out the power levels etc, given black has card draw and life gain with P. Arena & Consume Spirit.
Yes it does, in an environment where Wrath of God is already the gold standard for smacking down aggro. With 8 possible Wrath effects in a 60-card deck, exactly what point is there in holding back mana to regenerate a creature? The word "regenerate" on a creature right now is only worth slightly more than the words "bands with other homarids".
There wont be any decks running 8 wraths, it's the same argument as the 8 Chars when everyone was freaking out over Blast. It will be incredibly influential, however. Blast simply gave Blue decks spot removal and Blue rush decks some reach to end the game. Damnation singlehandedly makes Mono-black viable, and possibly too powerful, but that's all speculation as of now. It does also change the meta incredibly, there are a large number of decks splashing white simply for Wrath (And maybe Helix). But with this...
Yeah, I dont see White being a part of as many decks. That doesnt mean there will be less White decks. But it will not be a must have color for control anymore, which is huge.
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Tournament Victories:
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
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For those worried about collecting them, from the 'booster rockets' thread:
Quote from rancored_elf »
In a Planar Chaos booster, we'll find 1 rare, 2 uncommons, 8 commons, 1 "planeshifted" rare or uncommon, and 3 "planeshifted" commons.
As with TS, a foil card always replaces a common, so it's still possible to open a booster with 3 rares.
So a Damnation has a better than 1 in 45 chance of being in the pack, since only Shifted Rares and Uncommons are at 1 per pack. Assuming that what they reported is true. So Damnation == ultra-uncommon, not even as bad as a rare.
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I don't understand the *** hate in this thread- *** won't go away, it's a staple and is perfectly in flavor for white. It's way out of flavor for black, which is the reason it's in PC with all the cards in the "wrong" colors.
As for the card, obviously it'll be good. It may be enough to push MBC up to being competitive. But I can't imagine there will be too many decks that will want 8 wrath effects, and even if there are white just got another great one anyway in the PC planeshifted cards(the Drop of Honey copy).
S'cuse me?
Thesejewels would like a word with you. IT IS IN FLAVOR FOR BLACK. They just did not want black to challenge white in the cheap mass removal department. Untill the opprotunity to bend that rule happened.
THE CARD IS IN FACT IN FLAVOR FOR BLACK. Srsly.
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Quote from RanDomino »
I think you mean "PoN", but it seems to me that "PwN" is more appropriate
(the 'w' stands for 'win', I think)
Quote from Tang4433 »
I think that WoTC felt that a lot of the players thought Standard was becoming mundane and a joke from all the nuked cards floating around. R&D took a vacation, and MaRo just started reprinting things.
I wonder what this will do for the popularity of Dimir House Guard?
Transmute 4 just got a lot more vicious... This AND the Temporal Extortion?
Oh, and it can regen and has evasion.
I dont understand how people can see a card in Core for 10 years and think that is has any chance of ever being dropped.
White does NOT have any kind of reliable removal, but Wrath of God. Wizards WILL NOT NUETER WHITE.
Also, it IS in flavor, White is the Color of Balance, and Wrath balances things.
Black is the color of Self Sacrifice, and this does not fit in its flavor (when you take into account that you dont play wrath of God when you have a good board posistion.)
Why all the Wrath hate?
1. See counterspell.
2. Temporal Isolation, Condemn, Faith's Fetters, Devouring Light, that new Drop...
3. Every color has balancing cards. Every color.
4. It kills your own army (optimal play aside); it's perfectly self sacrifice.
5.It makes sence that the best kill creatures spell is in the kill creatures color.
Plus, I've gotta agree with the guy who said that they really don't want this and Wrath in standard for two years. For that alone, I'm betting Wrath is what's dropped.
On a somewhat different tact... between Wrath, Damnation, and Drop of whozits, aggro is gonna need some seriously epic creatures to remain viable.
* Solace does his best not to get too excited about predicting this too, albeit he thought it'd be more expensive.
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Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05 Cool stuff here.
There wont be any decks running 8 wraths, it's the same argument as the 8 Chars when everyone was freaking out over Blast.
That's quite different, actually. Char isn't a card that you'd want 8-of in your deck, because it's usually a finisher, and has a drawback that can add up given time. Wrath is a completely different animal. I believe they tried to nerf every white "extra" Wrath in every T2 environment since Onslaught, when people were running four Wraths and four Akroma's Vengeances.
Quote from Solace »
5.It makes sence that the best kill creatures spell is in the kill creatures color.
It also make sense that the best mass removal is in the mass removal color (white).
I wouldn't hold my breath to see this taking over Wrath in the core set. If they drop Wrath, it will be in favor of another white mass removal spell, like Rout or Catastrophe. Mass removal and balance are key elements of white's philosophy, and I don't think they'd mess with that (not counting the crack pipe fest that is Time Spiral block, of course).
I wonder what this will do for the popularity of Dimir House Guard?
Transmute 4 just got a lot more vicious... This AND the Temporal Extortion?
Oh, and it can regen and has evasion.
really...who needs blue anymore?
you could play black white control with 8 wrath effects, and debtor's knell, the rumored white counterspell (the avoid fate clone) and isn't black supposed to be getting a counterspell of its own too?
1) Agro is dead. dont argue. gg.
2) Dralnu just got really good. Its main problemo was agro. we can say bye to that.
3) Alot of new decks are going to pop up.
4) The prices on these going up? Id say less than 20, considering the info on the pack setup, these become alot easier to find, so dont beg your mommy to buy 4 of these for you at 900 thousand dollars a pop at the outrageously large prerelease prices. Though i would reccomend Filling up your trades binder with really good cards To barder to the newbies. I would probably trade a shockland for one of these on prerelease day.
Thank you for making the fine upstanding citizens *chokes a little* at Wizards of the Coast finally print Wrath of Your Father in my favorite color black. It really makes the cockles of my heart warm and fuzzy. My Orzhov control deck will have EIGHT BLEEPING WRATHS. Sorry. You know how excitable I get. Thank you for this glorious bounty.
Screw Mutilate.
Amen.
---
They better not be ****ing with me on this. Orb of Insight be damned
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Don't read anything LaPille. Your brain will thank you later. ----> VICTORY!
Why the *** hate? Many reasons, let's start this shall we? Apologies to moderators in advance if you feel this doesn't belong here but I will compare it to Damnation as well.
1. Design space. *** severely limits any type of creative design space for block mechanics, since all Wrath variants HAVE to be overcosted to incorporate any Block themes/mechanics. For instance, we never got to see this:
Odyssey Wrath 2WW
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures.
Threshold-Instead, destroy all creatures, artifacts and enchantments.
Why? Because then we WOULD have 8 wrath effects at CMC 4. Well, with Damnation now we do. But you all miss the important part; NOT IN ONE COLOR. Absent a Wrath in Core, we may have seen the above card. The above is NOT the same as Akroma's Vengeance at CMC 7, since Threshold can be achieved before turn 7 and this card can still be played to great effect on turn 4 (and turn 3 with accel). That is what great design is about. *** prevents that, no question.
2. Flavor. I can never be sold on a WHITE card in a color that is about balance, order, and amassing HUGE ARMIES OF CREATURES (weenies) that wipes all of that away. Cry symmetry effects all you want but it doesn't jive. Balance =/= symmetry, never has. Black is the ONLY color that has consistently shown to be indiscriminate in killing. The only reason *** exists is to keep a check on aggro and because it was a tradition. Guess what? Slavery, men only voting and a ton of other bad things were traditions at once. There is no logical reason why an appeal to "that's how we've always done it" should factor into this at all. That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
3. Power Creep. *** is the most efficient removal spell next to StP. The reason why toughness 4 is the new Toughness 2 is because of ***. When I drop a creature, it has to be grossly efficient nowadays. Over time, creatures have had to be so good (notice the prevalance of CMC 4 4/4's nowadays? And the recent WotC article that this will be the Green baseline to come?). If the black pinpoint removal was causing this, it would make sense but the removal came after. Sudden Death is a response to Hierarch if anything, not the other way around. When Terror came back, we all rejoiced because Black pinpoint was nowhere NEAR as efficient as white removal had been for awhile. Too bad it came in the wrong set.
And let's not get into the rampant ProB that White's been getting for quite some time now.
*** has stifled the game for a bit, it's unarguable. It's belonged in Black and I hope this is a 10th edition plant. Like my friend said, why else would they give away textless Wraths? Wrath sells the Core set (and now the painlands do); you don't give away what you can sell. Damnation would sell a core set like Wrath never has.
Ok people... now name one black mass kill spell in standard that is any good... i can't think of any.
What i see when i see this card is penumbra's becoming useful, and definately ghostways. This does not break the format at all... If people wanna run 8 wraths then you'll see haste/burn decks thats all. i can come up with a decklist now Avalance Rider Giant Solifuge Hunted Dragon Magnivore Nether Traitor
and best of all Suspend cards...
They came up with a deck that counteracts this format. Does anyone think that maybe they created a 13 dmg kill spell to keep stuffy dolls happy?. Cause stuffy dolls don't die to wrath. They made this deck work to counteract wrath probably... Out of those hasters nether traitor is another cancelation to this.... WOW you wrath i'll pay some black and returns my traitors to play... you effectively did nothing... If people wanna play 8 wraths then you play one creature that hits him one at a time. He ***s you play another. this isn't that of a big deal people get over yourself.... I still want a playset
So in legacy, the price of tundra will go down, and the price of underground sea will go up. Great one of the few reasons to play white (my favorite color) is being moved to another color.
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That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
1. See counterspell.
2. Temporal Isolation, Condemn, Faith's Fetters, Devouring Light, that new Drop...
3. Every color has balancing cards. Every color.
4. It kills your own army (optimal play aside); it's perfectly self sacrifice.
5.It makes sence that the best kill creatures spell is in the kill creatures color.
Plus, I've gotta agree with the guy who said that they really don't want this and Wrath in standard for two years. For that alone, I'm betting Wrath is what's dropped.
On a somewhat different tact... between Wrath, Damnation, and Drop of whozits, aggro is gonna need some seriously epic creatures to remain viable.
* Solace does his best not to get too excited about predicting this too, albeit he thought it'd be more expensive.
1. Card was overpowered (according to Wizards) and not replaced with a direct copy.
2. So thats Three White REMOVAL spells out of 9 sets over 3 blocks? I didnt say creature control, but creature removal. How many does black have again?
3. True, and if they drop *** white would no longer have one.
4. Thats not Self Sacrifice for Gain, thats just Balancing the board, very different when you think about it.
5. No, black is the best SPOT creature kill color, not the best board sweeper, as a mater of fact, it seems to be a very purposful effort on wizards part to make that a weak spot in Blacks armor. Only tossing the color a few cards in the vien every once and while.
Even if they do drop *** for 10th, this will rotate in a year and then we will have NO *** for what? another year? Im tired, cant think of the exact time frame.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
It also make sense that the best mass removal is in the mass removal color (white).
Well, that's the thing. Why's White the color of mass removal? Because Wrath is in it.
If you took out wrath from white, then objectively looked at what color should get it, you'll see the 'destroy all creatures', and the tons of ways black has to kill creatures (including nearly as many wrath variants as white), and white having... pacifism variants and ways to kill stuff in combat. It's just a black effect, and deserves to be on a black card.
Plus, it's such a... well, core set name. It doesn't really reference anything, but is just as iconic about the effect it has. If they didn't want to put it in the core set, they'd have named it, I dunno, Braids' Vengeance, or something.
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Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05 Cool stuff here.
While Damnation is sure to bring shockwaves in standard its just still wrath people, wrath never broke the game,never stopped aggro good players will learn to play against it. Sure it does shore up a weakness black has had against multiples and creatures with protection, but thats all. Want to create shockwaves that go all the way to Vintage print disenchant in Black and say OMG. Otherwise come down it aint the end of the world. Chase rare it is the be all end all of cards it aint.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Plus, it's such a... well, core set name. It doesn't really reference anything, but is just as iconic about the effect it has. If they didn't want to put it in the core set, they'd have named it, I dunno, Braids' Vengeance, or something.
Yawgmoth's Vengence, not Braids
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That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
As for the card, obviously it'll be good. It may be enough to push MBC up to being competitive. But I can't imagine there will be too many decks that will want 8 wrath effects, and even if there are white just got another great one anyway in the PC planeshifted cards(the Drop of Honey copy).
While playing magic today at my house, we were joking that WotC would indeed give green ***. My worse fear was WotC would give Black Disenchant. That would be a disaster.
I do wonder if white will get counter spells or card draw because that's about what it will take if they want to balance out the power levels etc, given black has card draw and life gain with P. Arena & Consume Spirit.
Yes it does, in an environment where Wrath of God is already the gold standard for smacking down aggro. With 8 possible Wrath effects in a 60-card deck, exactly what point is there in holding back mana to regenerate a creature? The word "regenerate" on a creature right now is only worth slightly more than the words "bands with other homarids".
Yeah, I dont see White being a part of as many decks. That doesnt mean there will be less White decks. But it will not be a must have color for control anymore, which is huge.
Indianapolis Regionals 2009 (Standard)
Worldwake Gameday (Limited)
See my alters here: http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q16/jimmy2do/Cards/
So a Damnation has a better than 1 in 45 chance of being in the pack, since only Shifted Rares and Uncommons are at 1 per pack. Assuming that what they reported is true. So Damnation == ultra-uncommon, not even as bad as a rare.
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
S'cuse me?
These jewels would like a word with you. IT IS IN FLAVOR FOR BLACK. They just did not want black to challenge white in the cheap mass removal department. Untill the opprotunity to bend that rule happened.
THE CARD IS IN FACT IN FLAVOR FOR BLACK. Srsly.
Want a banner or avatar? Click my banner to visit Aether! Thanks Guys!
Transmute 4 just got a lot more vicious... This AND the Temporal Extortion?
Oh, and it can regen and has evasion.
1. See counterspell.
2. Temporal Isolation, Condemn, Faith's Fetters, Devouring Light, that new Drop...
3. Every color has balancing cards. Every color.
4. It kills your own army (optimal play aside); it's perfectly self sacrifice.
5.It makes sence that the best kill creatures spell is in the kill creatures color.
Plus, I've gotta agree with the guy who said that they really don't want this and Wrath in standard for two years. For that alone, I'm betting Wrath is what's dropped.
On a somewhat different tact... between Wrath, Damnation, and Drop of whozits, aggro is gonna need some seriously epic creatures to remain viable.
* Solace does his best not to get too excited about predicting this too, albeit he thought it'd be more expensive.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
It also make sense that the best mass removal is in the mass removal color (white).
I wouldn't hold my breath to see this taking over Wrath in the core set. If they drop Wrath, it will be in favor of another white mass removal spell, like Rout or Catastrophe. Mass removal and balance are key elements of white's philosophy, and I don't think they'd mess with that (not counting the crack pipe fest that is Time Spiral block, of course).
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really...who needs blue anymore?
you could play black white control with 8 wrath effects, and debtor's knell, the rumored white counterspell (the avoid fate clone) and isn't black supposed to be getting a counterspell of its own too?
1) Agro is dead. dont argue. gg.
2) Dralnu just got really good. Its main problemo was agro. we can say bye to that.
3) Alot of new decks are going to pop up.
4) The prices on these going up? Id say less than 20, considering the info on the pack setup, these become alot easier to find, so dont beg your mommy to buy 4 of these for you at 900 thousand dollars a pop at the outrageously large prerelease prices. Though i would reccomend Filling up your trades binder with really good cards To barder to the newbies. I would probably trade a shockland for one of these on prerelease day.
~Type 2~
WMartyr BeatsW
*clears throat*
Jesus,
Thank you for making the fine upstanding citizens *chokes a little* at Wizards of the Coast finally print Wrath of Your Father in my favorite color black. It really makes the cockles of my heart warm and fuzzy. My Orzhov control deck will have EIGHT BLEEPING WRATHS. Sorry. You know how excitable I get. Thank you for this glorious bounty.
Screw Mutilate.
Amen.
---
They better not be ****ing with me on this. Orb of Insight be damned
Some people just love Jace a little too much
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
1. Design space. *** severely limits any type of creative design space for block mechanics, since all Wrath variants HAVE to be overcosted to incorporate any Block themes/mechanics. For instance, we never got to see this:
Odyssey Wrath 2WW
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures.
Threshold-Instead, destroy all creatures, artifacts and enchantments.
Why? Because then we WOULD have 8 wrath effects at CMC 4. Well, with Damnation now we do. But you all miss the important part; NOT IN ONE COLOR. Absent a Wrath in Core, we may have seen the above card. The above is NOT the same as Akroma's Vengeance at CMC 7, since Threshold can be achieved before turn 7 and this card can still be played to great effect on turn 4 (and turn 3 with accel). That is what great design is about. *** prevents that, no question.
2. Flavor. I can never be sold on a WHITE card in a color that is about balance, order, and amassing HUGE ARMIES OF CREATURES (weenies) that wipes all of that away. Cry symmetry effects all you want but it doesn't jive. Balance =/= symmetry, never has. Black is the ONLY color that has consistently shown to be indiscriminate in killing. The only reason *** exists is to keep a check on aggro and because it was a tradition. Guess what? Slavery, men only voting and a ton of other bad things were traditions at once. There is no logical reason why an appeal to "that's how we've always done it" should factor into this at all. That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
3. Power Creep. *** is the most efficient removal spell next to StP. The reason why toughness 4 is the new Toughness 2 is because of ***. When I drop a creature, it has to be grossly efficient nowadays. Over time, creatures have had to be so good (notice the prevalance of CMC 4 4/4's nowadays? And the recent WotC article that this will be the Green baseline to come?). If the black pinpoint removal was causing this, it would make sense but the removal came after. Sudden Death is a response to Hierarch if anything, not the other way around. When Terror came back, we all rejoiced because Black pinpoint was nowhere NEAR as efficient as white removal had been for awhile. Too bad it came in the wrong set.
And let's not get into the rampant ProB that White's been getting for quite some time now.
*** has stifled the game for a bit, it's unarguable. It's belonged in Black and I hope this is a 10th edition plant. Like my friend said, why else would they give away textless Wraths? Wrath sells the Core set (and now the painlands do); you don't give away what you can sell. Damnation would sell a core set like Wrath never has.
Love it. The new Standard.
What i see when i see this card is penumbra's becoming useful, and definately ghostways. This does not break the format at all... If people wanna run 8 wraths then you'll see haste/burn decks thats all. i can come up with a decklist now
Avalance Rider
Giant Solifuge
Hunted Dragon
Magnivore
Nether Traitor
and best of all Suspend cards...
They came up with a deck that counteracts this format. Does anyone think that maybe they created a 13 dmg kill spell to keep stuffy dolls happy?. Cause stuffy dolls don't die to wrath. They made this deck work to counteract wrath probably... Out of those hasters nether traitor is another cancelation to this.... WOW you wrath i'll pay some black and returns my traitors to play... you effectively did nothing... If people wanna play 8 wraths then you play one creature that hits him one at a time. He ***s you play another. this isn't that of a big deal people get over yourself.... I still want a playset
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
1. Card was overpowered (according to Wizards) and not replaced with a direct copy.
2. So thats Three White REMOVAL spells out of 9 sets over 3 blocks? I didnt say creature control, but creature removal. How many does black have again?
3. True, and if they drop *** white would no longer have one.
4. Thats not Self Sacrifice for Gain, thats just Balancing the board, very different when you think about it.
5. No, black is the best SPOT creature kill color, not the best board sweeper, as a mater of fact, it seems to be a very purposful effort on wizards part to make that a weak spot in Blacks armor. Only tossing the color a few cards in the vien every once and while.
Even if they do drop *** for 10th, this will rotate in a year and then we will have NO *** for what? another year? Im tired, cant think of the exact time frame.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Well, that's the thing. Why's White the color of mass removal? Because Wrath is in it.
If you took out wrath from white, then objectively looked at what color should get it, you'll see the 'destroy all creatures', and the tons of ways black has to kill creatures (including nearly as many wrath variants as white), and white having... pacifism variants and ways to kill stuff in combat. It's just a black effect, and deserves to be on a black card.
Plus, it's such a... well, core set name. It doesn't really reference anything, but is just as iconic about the effect it has. If they didn't want to put it in the core set, they'd have named it, I dunno, Braids' Vengeance, or something.
Possibly the last remaining member of the Banana Clan (+1)
Banana of the Month Feb '05
Cool stuff here.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
Yawgmoth's Vengence, not Braids
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
seriously what is wizards thinking printing another wrath in the format unless they are going to remove wrath from 10th ed.
cookie wizards of the the simic
The extendo siggy thingy currently dead
This is starting to bear my suspicion out...
Artist Strikes Fish