EDIT: @Traumerei
if anyone bothered to read my other post that this was responding to which @traumerei clearly didn't he would have found out that I do play legacy. Then he wouldn't have made such a dumb uninformed comment, I applaud how little people are thinking about this. So 20 people all together within 100 miles of me play Legacy plus me, so 21, then figure a change of + or - 5 and then there are well 16 to 26 max that play legacy in 100miles. I don't care about the rest of the world, it's only extremely clear that so few people play legacy because the cards for them do not exist to trade for. While I can go play standard at a tournament virtually any night of the week and 15-50 different people show up showing me that standard has many people that play it, while legacy is dead.
Why are Legacy cards so expensive if nobody plays Legacy? Legacy is obviously the better format, and it will only draw more players as time goes by. Blah blah blah, Legacy is dead, nobody plays Legacy, I can't care enough to read the rest of your comments since it's plain dumb for you to say "Legacy is dead" when you actually DO play Legacy. What's your point? What are you trying to prove here?
The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth.
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth.
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
It's called market economics. Demand is relativity high (even if it is numerically low) because of the very few number of surviving cards from print runs that were not very large to begin with.
This. Legacy card values will continue to go up and up as time goes on, pricing new players out of the format. Modern isn't being created to replace Extended, it's to create a sustainable and supportable eternal format for WoTC as Legacy slowly turns into a bigger version of Vintage.
When did everyone decide that current Extended is a failure? Have you ever heard a Wizards employee agree with that claim? I sure haven't.
If you go back to March on Aaron Forsythe's twitter account, you'll see the initial Modern/Overextended discussions.
Legacy is unsustainable. It's not that they'll stop supporting it officially, it's that the format cannot support new players. There aren't enough dual lands and other format staples currently in print. Because of that, they can't actively support Legacy- all of Legacy's support comes from the ground up, not from the top down. However, this has created an awkward situation where there's no competitive Eternal format for WotC to support. Modern's creation fixes this issue.
Edit: how can you even think of calling modern a eternal format, eternal would mean old and modern would mean current...
Because it doesn't rotate. That's the definition of an eternal format. EDH is also one. It means the only way cards get taken out is by bannings.
The problem many players have in the USA is that the country is so big that it's very hard to find places to play depending on where you live. In Europe it's easier.
Modern will replace extended, it is the dead format. If legacy was killed of it would result in massive player raging.
Edit: how can you even think of calling modern a eternal format, eternal would mean old and modern would mean current...
Eternal has nothing to with old, it just means "unchanging".
There are two ways of replacing something here. Modern as a format will probably replace extended rather than legacy (if it becomes a format at all), but its players will be prospective legacy players rather than prospective extended/standard players. That way you could say that modern replaces legacy as the "eternal format of choice" for a lot of players.
The problem many players have in the USA is that the country is so big that it's very hard to find places to play depending on where you live. In Europe it's easier.
Europe is bigger than USA but has fewer magic players, so this really doesn't make sense in any way.
Playing in a format where affinity is the oldest deck, is not even eternal, it is extended, it is where the "true" extended should be at about now. If they want it to be a eternal format they need to go back further, at least to invasion or masques.
Seems like the people who are crying about legacy just can't afford it, I can't afford it and I still think by far it is the best and most interesting format. It rewards good tight play, (like old extended did) and modern will not provide that cause the card pool will be dull or dominated like every other format by Sfm and Jace.
Modern should be extended an they need to just fix legacy or have a true available eternal format starting at masques wher the reserve list does not affect printing.
Also the majority of wizards employees in RND or otherwise do not know what
Players truly want, heck they do on MTGO at least but they don't have that list and more freedom at least, and half the less problems that we do. However grinding MTGO is cool but it doesn't give you the paper cards you need for higher level play.
Europe is slightly larger than the USA and has roughly double the population.
According to the ratings and rankings page on thedci.com Europe has 118120 "active" players while USA has 176146. As you already agreed that Europe is slightly larger I see no need to source that, but crossing country borders in Europe is generally a bigger hazzle than crossing state borders in the US, plus gas is cheaper there.
Playing in a format where affinity is the oldest deck, is not even eternal, it is extended, it is where the "true" extended should be at about now. If they want it to be a eternal format they need to go back further, at least to invasion or masques.
Seems like the people who are crying about legacy just can't afford it, I can't afford it and I still think by far it is the best and most interesting format. It rewards good tight play, (like old extended did) and modern will not provide that cause the card pool will be dull or dominated like every other format by Sfm and Jace.
Modern should be extended an they need to just fix legacy or have a true available eternal format starting at masques wher the reserve list does not affect printing.
Also the majority of wizards employees in RND or otherwise do not know what
Players truly want, heck they do on MTGO at least but they don't have that list and more freedom at least, and half the less problems that we do. However grinding MTGO is cool but it doesn't give you the paper cards you need for higher level play.
These are some excellent points that you bring up, a few of which deserve highlighting.
1. "Playing in a format where affinity is the oldest deck, is not even eternal, it is extended"
Totally agree. A lot of older strategies are automatically excluded, including many storm decks, madness, scepter chant, goblins, and a variety of other strategies. The same goes for various staples including Counterspell (not broken at all), Onslaught fetchlands, the wishes (Except Living Wish), and others. Eternal formats do not exclude cards because they are a little above the Standard Format curve! If a card is actually too powerful, like Dark Ritual, it can be banned. Otherwise, powerful cards and deck diversity are what drive an eternal format, and only an older Mercadian Masques cutoff can do that.
2. "Seems like the people who are crying about legacy just can't afford it, I can't afford it and I still think by far it is the best and most interesting format"
The affordability of Legacy is a genuine problem, so while I agree with your general statement, I disagree with the way in which you present it. It is not just crying and whining about the format. It is a real identification of a pervasive problem: the price of cards, especially those on the Reserve List. Even if Wasteland and FoW get reprinted, Legacy will only become more popular, and the duals will continue to skyrocket in price.
A new eternal format can address this problem, but it needs to do so in the right way. A Mercadian Masques cutoff makes 3 extra years of strategies viable, which is necessarily better for the diversity of an Eternal Format. A mirrodin cutoff does not do this, especially given the stupidity of the current banlist.
3. "However grinding MTGO is cool but it doesn't give you the paper cards you need for higher level play."
This is an interesting point because it applies to both Modern and Overextended, formats which currently exist more online than in paper. In both cases, the goal is obviously to start paper events and not just keep it in an Online netherworld. The difference then is, what decks and diversity do you want to see in that paper format? Modern simply lacks the sheer number of cards of Overextended, which adversely impacts format health and diversity.
I think Extended will take a few years to come into it's own, but will be a reasonable format eventually.
As for Modern, people keep analysing it as it is right now, I would suggest taking a step back and imagining the situation in 2, 5 or even 10 years from now.
modern seems so much more indepth than extended is currently... I miss old-extended (even though apparently it was never that popular) the more cards you can play with, the better IMHO
I probably should just do a blog post on Extended, but it's serving its purpose. Eternal formats are problematic on the PTQ level for a number of reasons, and having a buffer format between Standard and the Eternal formats helps "smooth out" drops in card prices as they rotate.
I probably should just do a blog post on Extended, but it's serving its purpose. Eternal formats are problematic on the PTQ level for a number of reasons, and having a buffer format between Standard and the Eternal formats helps "smooth out" drops in card prices as they rotate.
Eternal PTQ with "fair" card prices is not problematic.
Extended delays price drops 2 years but they drop anyways.
The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth.
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
There's the whining about the Reserved List and prices of Legacy again and again and again .. Get a job, or learn how to trade..
Not everyone has an issue with the prices of legacy etc... the problem is, people like to have sex... and what I mean by that is... the population grows on a daily basis and that means more people, and that means more people who play MTG and who are interested in playing legacy... if there is an arbitrary number of 100,000 of each dual land, that means there are 25,000 playsets of them... take away the thousands that are horded by collectors and u prob get somewhere in range of 10,000-15,000 playsets of dual lands available, before you even forgot all the ones that have been lost, ruined, thrown away etc...
now fast forward a few years and the format will be unstable for a huge demand to play but the cards just simple NOT existing...
wizards needs to ban the dual lands, or create alternate cards with equal or equivalent power
Not everyone has an issue with the prices of legacy etc... the problem is, people like to have sex... and what I mean by that is... the population grows on a daily basis and that means more people, and that means more people who play MTG and who are interested in playing legacy... if there is an arbitrary number of 100,000 of each dual land, that means there are 25,000 playsets of them... take away the thousands that are horded by collectors and u prob get somewhere in range of 10,000-15,000 playsets of dual lands available, before you even forgot all the ones that have been lost, ruined, thrown away etc...
now fast forward a few years and the format will be unstable for a huge demand to play but the cards just simple NOT existing...
wizards needs to ban the dual lands, or create alternate cards with equal or equivalent power
They need to ban them, or ban them and create alternates, you mean (or, ultimately, eliminate the reserve list). Just creating alternates wouldn't decrease demand for the originals.
They need to ban them, or ban them and create alternates, you mean (or, ultimately, eliminate the reserve list). Just creating alternates wouldn't decrease demand for the originals.
well if they banned them, the ravnica shocklands would take their place IMHO... it's hard to imagine printing better than that without just being duals... unless they changed it to 1 life... but that just seems silly...
but yes, they need to ban them, or abolish the reserve list...
my theory about the reserve list is as follows:
any card that has been consistently over $100 for over 50% of it's lifespan will remain on the reserve list and any card that is under $100 or has been for over 50% of it's lifespan shall be removed from this list.
That way it protects the REAL collectors cards, such as the p9 and things of that nature... and we can pull the dual lands off. Cause lets face it... the reserve list exists to protect collectors investments... cause most of the duals are worth 50-60 and only a few are in the range of 100$... and if they were reprinted in small quantities, they would all hover around the 50$ range maybe a little less... if this is the case then we need to add tarmogoyf and jace and wasteland and other cards to the reserve list to protect collectors investments...
so personally I feel that wizards should protect cards that are worth 150$ to infinite... but let the rest free and let the game play on
well if they banned them, the ravnica shocklands would take their place IMHO... it's hard to imagine printing better than that without just being duals... unless they changed it to 1 life... but that just seems silly...
but yes, they need to ban them, or abolish the reserve list...
my theory about the reserve list is as follows:
any card that has been consistently over $100 for over 50% of it's lifespan will remain on the reserve list and any card that is under $100 or has been for over 50% of it's lifespan shall be removed from this list.
That way it protects the REAL collectors cards, such as the p9 and things of that nature... and we can pull the dual lands off. Cause lets face it... the reserve list exists to protect collectors investments... cause most of the duals are worth 50-60 and only a few are in the range of 100$... and if they were reprinted in small quantities, they would all hover around the 50$ range maybe a little less... if this is the case then we need to add tarmogoyf and jace and wasteland and other cards to the reserve list to protect collectors investments...
so personally I feel that wizards should protect cards that are worth 150$ to infinite... but let the rest free and let the game play on
I would definitely advocate removing the duals from the reserved list. Price may not come down too too much while they're in Standard, but they'd probably drop to $20-30 or so after they rotate. Maybe lower. Duals seem to be the biggest cost barrier for most players. FoW and goyf as well, but they *could* be reprinted at any time. Who knows?
I really wish Wizards would push their tournament structure... I think we should have many many more tournaments a year... every year should see a Pro Tour For...
Block
Standard
Modern or OverExtended
Legacy
plus Worlds
so move back to 5 Pro tours, with PTQ Seasons for Each... and each Pro Tour should have two PTQ seasons... one being a Pro Tour Format PTQ season and one being a Sealed PTQ season... So for Pro Tour #1... there would be a PTQ Season that plays extended, and then a limited PTQ season just after, then Pro Tour, then next....
this would double the amount of PTQ's and give people a chance to qualify for the Pro Tour in constructed or limited.... considering all Pro Tours have both formats, I think this is fair...
Eternal PTQ with "fair" card prices is not problematic.
Extended delays price drops 2 years but they drop anyways.
The issue isn't really card prices, it's card availability and access at newer stores. They don't want you to have to order most of your cards online for a PTQ.
Why are Legacy cards so expensive if nobody plays Legacy? Legacy is obviously the better format, and it will only draw more players as time goes by. Blah blah blah, Legacy is dead, nobody plays Legacy, I can't care enough to read the rest of your comments since it's plain dumb for you to say "Legacy is dead" when you actually DO play Legacy. What's your point? What are you trying to prove here?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6193029#post6193029
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6193029#post6193029
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
This. Legacy card values will continue to go up and up as time goes on, pricing new players out of the format. Modern isn't being created to replace Extended, it's to create a sustainable and supportable eternal format for WoTC as Legacy slowly turns into a bigger version of Vintage.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Edit: how can you even think of calling modern a eternal format, eternal would mean old and modern would mean current...
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
http://twitter.com/#!/TomLaPilleMagic
If you go back to March on Aaron Forsythe's twitter account, you'll see the initial Modern/Overextended discussions.
Legacy is unsustainable. It's not that they'll stop supporting it officially, it's that the format cannot support new players. There aren't enough dual lands and other format staples currently in print. Because of that, they can't actively support Legacy- all of Legacy's support comes from the ground up, not from the top down. However, this has created an awkward situation where there's no competitive Eternal format for WotC to support. Modern's creation fixes this issue.
Because it doesn't rotate. That's the definition of an eternal format. EDH is also one. It means the only way cards get taken out is by bannings.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Eternal has nothing to with old, it just means "unchanging".
There are two ways of replacing something here. Modern as a format will probably replace extended rather than legacy (if it becomes a format at all), but its players will be prospective legacy players rather than prospective extended/standard players. That way you could say that modern replaces legacy as the "eternal format of choice" for a lot of players.
Europe is bigger than USA but has fewer magic players, so this really doesn't make sense in any way.
Well, it's what LSV said and I agree with him.
Seems like the people who are crying about legacy just can't afford it, I can't afford it and I still think by far it is the best and most interesting format. It rewards good tight play, (like old extended did) and modern will not provide that cause the card pool will be dull or dominated like every other format by Sfm and Jace.
Modern should be extended an they need to just fix legacy or have a true available eternal format starting at masques wher the reserve list does not affect printing.
Also the majority of wizards employees in RND or otherwise do not know what
Players truly want, heck they do on MTGO at least but they don't have that list and more freedom at least, and half the less problems that we do. However grinding MTGO is cool but it doesn't give you the paper cards you need for higher level play.
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
According to the ratings and rankings page on thedci.com Europe has 118120 "active" players while USA has 176146. As you already agreed that Europe is slightly larger I see no need to source that, but crossing country borders in Europe is generally a bigger hazzle than crossing state borders in the US, plus gas is cheaper there.
These are some excellent points that you bring up, a few of which deserve highlighting.
1. "Playing in a format where affinity is the oldest deck, is not even eternal, it is extended"
Totally agree. A lot of older strategies are automatically excluded, including many storm decks, madness, scepter chant, goblins, and a variety of other strategies. The same goes for various staples including Counterspell (not broken at all), Onslaught fetchlands, the wishes (Except Living Wish), and others. Eternal formats do not exclude cards because they are a little above the Standard Format curve! If a card is actually too powerful, like Dark Ritual, it can be banned. Otherwise, powerful cards and deck diversity are what drive an eternal format, and only an older Mercadian Masques cutoff can do that.
2. "Seems like the people who are crying about legacy just can't afford it, I can't afford it and I still think by far it is the best and most interesting format"
The affordability of Legacy is a genuine problem, so while I agree with your general statement, I disagree with the way in which you present it. It is not just crying and whining about the format. It is a real identification of a pervasive problem: the price of cards, especially those on the Reserve List. Even if Wasteland and FoW get reprinted, Legacy will only become more popular, and the duals will continue to skyrocket in price.
A new eternal format can address this problem, but it needs to do so in the right way. A Mercadian Masques cutoff makes 3 extra years of strategies viable, which is necessarily better for the diversity of an Eternal Format. A mirrodin cutoff does not do this, especially given the stupidity of the current banlist.
3. "However grinding MTGO is cool but it doesn't give you the paper cards you need for higher level play."
This is an interesting point because it applies to both Modern and Overextended, formats which currently exist more online than in paper. In both cases, the goal is obviously to start paper events and not just keep it in an Online netherworld. The difference then is, what decks and diversity do you want to see in that paper format? Modern simply lacks the sheer number of cards of Overextended, which adversely impacts format health and diversity.
-ktkenshinx-
modern seems so much more indepth than extended is currently... I miss old-extended (even though apparently it was never that popular) the more cards you can play with, the better IMHO
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Eternal PTQ with "fair" card prices is not problematic.
Extended delays price drops 2 years but they drop anyways.
Warning for trolling.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6193029#post6193029
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
Not everyone has an issue with the prices of legacy etc... the problem is, people like to have sex... and what I mean by that is... the population grows on a daily basis and that means more people, and that means more people who play MTG and who are interested in playing legacy... if there is an arbitrary number of 100,000 of each dual land, that means there are 25,000 playsets of them... take away the thousands that are horded by collectors and u prob get somewhere in range of 10,000-15,000 playsets of dual lands available, before you even forgot all the ones that have been lost, ruined, thrown away etc...
now fast forward a few years and the format will be unstable for a huge demand to play but the cards just simple NOT existing...
wizards needs to ban the dual lands, or create alternate cards with equal or equivalent power
They need to ban them, or ban them and create alternates, you mean (or, ultimately, eliminate the reserve list). Just creating alternates wouldn't decrease demand for the originals.
well if they banned them, the ravnica shocklands would take their place IMHO... it's hard to imagine printing better than that without just being duals... unless they changed it to 1 life... but that just seems silly...
but yes, they need to ban them, or abolish the reserve list...
my theory about the reserve list is as follows:
any card that has been consistently over $100 for over 50% of it's lifespan will remain on the reserve list and any card that is under $100 or has been for over 50% of it's lifespan shall be removed from this list.
That way it protects the REAL collectors cards, such as the p9 and things of that nature... and we can pull the dual lands off. Cause lets face it... the reserve list exists to protect collectors investments... cause most of the duals are worth 50-60 and only a few are in the range of 100$... and if they were reprinted in small quantities, they would all hover around the 50$ range maybe a little less... if this is the case then we need to add tarmogoyf and jace and wasteland and other cards to the reserve list to protect collectors investments...
so personally I feel that wizards should protect cards that are worth 150$ to infinite... but let the rest free and let the game play on
I would definitely advocate removing the duals from the reserved list. Price may not come down too too much while they're in Standard, but they'd probably drop to $20-30 or so after they rotate. Maybe lower. Duals seem to be the biggest cost barrier for most players. FoW and goyf as well, but they *could* be reprinted at any time. Who knows?
CG
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
Block
Standard
Modern or OverExtended
Legacy
plus Worlds
so move back to 5 Pro tours, with PTQ Seasons for Each... and each Pro Tour should have two PTQ seasons... one being a Pro Tour Format PTQ season and one being a Sealed PTQ season... So for Pro Tour #1... there would be a PTQ Season that plays extended, and then a limited PTQ season just after, then Pro Tour, then next....
this would double the amount of PTQ's and give people a chance to qualify for the Pro Tour in constructed or limited.... considering all Pro Tours have both formats, I think this is fair...
The issue isn't really card prices, it's card availability and access at newer stores. They don't want you to have to order most of your cards online for a PTQ.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Are you that ignorant to the realities of the format or just a complete troll?
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Im tired of standard and legacy is way to expensive to get into it