Look, wizards admitted bitterblossom was a mistake what's wrong with saying that about jace? Because honestly, jace 2.0 was a mistake in fact it was the biggest mistake they have made since tarmogoyf. And as for SFM not being banned in standard. We'll find out in 17 days whether or not SFM will gets the banhammer in standard and literally everyone is on their toes about it same thing with jace.
Stonehewer is only good in EDH because he's a TUTOR and he can put argentum armor into play attached to himself same with every other equipment that has an absurdly high cost. Or he can just nab SoFaI or jitte or something and bash face in while accumulating CA. In modern, you are likely dead on turn 5 against an aggro deck. Against control they will kill him/counter him immediately. And against combo he's just plain embarrassing.
I didn't mean they never say they make mistakes, it's just that in the article regarding banning Jace on DailyMtG, they basically said "He's strong, but suck it up, look how much we messed up with affinity."
While I am happy that Wizards is supporting a new eternal format, the form of that support is not ideal. Mirrodin is a really unfortunate cutoff, and they could have done a lot better by choosing a more historically significant set to begin the format at. New card frames? Seriously Wizards, if players are smart enough to play this game at all then they can also remember what sets are legal in the darn format.
Mercadian Masques is a much better cutoff point for the format, representing the true historical turning point for Magic: The end of the Reserve List. It is also the first major set to include the 6th Edition rules changes, like the stack, combat phases, the end of mana sources, etc. The historical significance of the Reserve List being abandoned is probably the most important. The Reserve List really is the thing holding eternal formats back, and starting a new format at this point is truly symbolic.
Players should understand that a lot of history and diversity is lost by cutting it off at the arbitrary Mirrodin block. An older cutoff, as in the Overextended format being proposed by players online, is a much better solution.
People might be hesitant to support Overextended (older cutoff) because Wizards seems to be supporting Modern. This is silly. Wizards will support any format that receives player support. So if Overextended is the format that receives the most support, then it will be the format that ultimately thrives.
Overextended is stupid and hopefully will never ever take off.
Modern is a fairly decent cutoff and would be tolerable in place of normal extended.
I have to disagree. Overextended is a very fun set up and could evolve a very fun playing format. That on top of the No card that matters Can be reprinted does help. Hmmm Format thrives but card is over rpiced. Drop it into a duel deck and no worries of warping Type 2 if its too powerfull for the current time. Card fits well for type 2 as well. hello MXX.
Too me Nothing will replace extended to me when it was tempest and such. That was a fun time even if I didnt win alot at that time of my life. It had its Aggro, combo, and control.
I don't like the masquest cutoff. And invasion would be fine but doesn't have any specific reason. Modern frames seems ok to me and like some1 at wizards said, it's easy to remember for those "newb" players, aka, players that don't come to forums to write about magic. That is very important too.
Modern frames seems ok to me and like some1 at wizards said, it's easy to remember for those "newb" players, aka, players that don't come to forums to write about magic. That is very important too.
Just the opposite.
As we've seen on these very forums, choosing the modern frames as your cutoff/guide makes many players think that all cards with modern frames are legal, while there are many which are not (those reprinted in special products, including the new Commander cards).
To avoid this confusion, they should choose some point other than the frame change.
As we've seen on these very forums, choosing the modern frames as your cutoff/guide makes many players think that all cards with modern frames are legal, while there are many which are not (those reprinted in special products, including the new Commander cards).
To avoid this confusion, they should choose some point other than the frame change.
95% or more of the cards are easy to figure out. If people want to play this format competitively you don't think they can figure out the other 5%?
Modern Magic is, to oldschool players like me, another word for "really expensive"
Though I do admit it's saving new players from buying old cards to keep up with the oldies.
I'd just rather have formats where players both old and new can interact without either spending a packet.
95% or more of the cards are easy to figure out. If people want to play this format competitively you don't think they can figure out the other 5%?
The problem isn't competitive players. For them, it doesn't really matter what the legality rules are. Give competitive players a list of 5000 legal cards out of the entire MTG cardpool and they'll do fine.
The problem is new/casual players. The point of the cardframe cutoff is so it is easy for a new/casual player to determine legality. The problem is that it misleads these very players into thinking that something like Dark Ritual is legal.
One of the other things people haven't really mentioned is the design philosophy changes that happened right around Mirrordin. Aside from chrome mox (banned), and the artifact lands (mostly banned), the amazing accelerants and absurd combo cards to enable resilient t2-3 kill decks are mostly gone. (yes, Hypergenesis can kill at this speed, but is a super-disruptable combo)
The biggest reason I'm glad not to see onslaught block in modern is the idea of playing vs storm combo decks without FoW or hymn or wasteland... and going back to masques brings in dark ritual, among other things.
More or less, the further back you go prior to Mirrordin without including tempest, the more it favors fast kill combo, since creatures have experienced power creep whereas accelerants and combo cards have not.
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Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
Scourge not being in the format is a blessing in disguise. As much as I love Stifle, not having to deal with the storm cards or Goblin Warchief is a good thing.
On the one hand, starting at Mirrodin and addings bans is good because, as said before me, we can avoid degenerate combos like 20/20 fliers or Mind's Desire or Dark Ritual.
Though there are plenty of cards in Invasion to Onslaught that aren't quite good enough for legacy, like Astral Slide or Fact or Fiction.
Actually not sure how Fact or Fiction stands when Jace TMS is legal.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
The problem isn't competitive players. For them, it doesn't really matter what the legality rules are. Give competitive players a list of 5000 legal cards out of the entire MTG cardpool and they'll do fine.
The problem is new/casual players. The point of the cardframe cutoff is so it is easy for a new/casual player to determine legality. The problem is that it misleads these very players into thinking that something like Dark Ritual is legal.
New players and casual players generally are going to play Standard or no format. If they are going to play Modern you don't think people will be smart enough to look at what cards are legal? You don't give people enough credit.
New players and casual players generally are going to play Standard or no format. If they are going to play Modern you don't think people will be smart enough to look at what cards are legal? You don't give people enough credit.
The argument I was responding to was that the line being drawn at the frame change helps new/casual players easily determine what is legal and what isn't.
The thing is, it wouldn't be too different from Legacy. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun, but it would most likely kill Legacy.
I am unsure if any format would kill Legacy. That's purely speculative at this point. But as to the similarities between Legacy and Overextended, I can say confidently that they are quite different. In the last two MTGO tournaments, winning decks have been Combo Elves, Living End, Affinity, All In Red, Astral Slide, Hive Mind, Twelvepost, Zoo, BW Midrange, and Madness. This is a huge range of decks, some of them viable in Legacy, but others totally unique to Overextended (although they are all from older formats, in some way).
Here are links to the Top 16s from the last two Overextended events on MTGO:
June 7: http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=422
May 31: http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=294
These events showcase the diversity of the format, a diversity that is necessarily larger than that of a smaller format (Modern).
The more diversity in an eternal format, the better the format is overall. An older cutoff (at Invasion and MM, once MTGO players get MM) gives more diversity and more strategies to new players.
As to the whole argument about card frames, helping out new players should not drive decisions to make a new eternal format. Legacy players are capable of learning a long and obscure banlist, some of which are obvious (Black Lotus) and some of which are less clear to the new players (Gush). but they still learn this and the format is successful. The same should be true of a new eternal format, and Overextended can be that format.
Mirrodin has an arbitrary cutoff that only serves to help out new players, but players who are interested in an eternal format are naturally going to have a sense of Magic sets and history. This group of players is going to be smart and experienced enough to understand the set legality without a visual aid.
I think most people can look up whether their promotion/duel deck card is legal or not in Standard/Extended. They can easily look this up for Modern. I'd expect the availability of modern face cards in core sets + blocks easily surpass the number in promos. So 95% of the time, it should work. Easier than going by expansion symbol or others.
Given the 10 years between Alpha-8th, it is quite a remarkable how the game has changed. Putting a new eternal format will keep more players interested, not less players. If WOTC keeps supporting more players - Modern is a no brainer.
New players and casual players generally are going to play Standard or no format.
As far as casual players are concerned don't you think they would prefer a format that is more flexible and where cards do not rotate as often. As a casual player myself, I prefer other formats over standard because of how often cards rotate. At least as far as I'm concerned this modern format seems like the perfect format for casual players. It's an eternal format so your cards never rotate and potentially expensive staples are all reprintable so hopefully WotC will take advantage of that.
Your comment is so insane it deserves a reply. No my local area is not the rest of the world. 200 miles??? and I get to go to a tournament at every game store in that area, Extremely not true. If I were to drive in a radius of 50miles a 1 hour drive one way for me, giving into account traffic and non highways. There are no LGS at all that hold Legacy tournaments ever. They never do and never will. If I were to increase that range to 100miles or 2.5-3 hours one way minimally, there would be 3 game stores that I know of that hold random legacy events when they feel like it. And I am not driving that far. How many people show up yeah about 20. Is it worth the drive though, noway it's not worth the drive, 5 hours of driving back and forth for a legacy tournament. That is my entry fee to a couple of booster drafts in standard that are close by.
The sparkmage shrieked, calling on the rage of the storms of his youth.
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
Casual players will more likely follow the "no format" option of jturphy rather than standard. So jturphy is right.
I only know that there's so many people wanting to play legacy/eternal but can't because of the prices or don't because they are afraid of "broken" stuff like fow and turn2 combo wins.
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I didn't mean they never say they make mistakes, it's just that in the article regarding banning Jace on DailyMtG, they basically said "He's strong, but suck it up, look how much we messed up with affinity."
Oo, that would be cool.
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Very high imo. New extended sucking also helps.
Mercadian Masques is a much better cutoff point for the format, representing the true historical turning point for Magic: The end of the Reserve List. It is also the first major set to include the 6th Edition rules changes, like the stack, combat phases, the end of mana sources, etc. The historical significance of the Reserve List being abandoned is probably the most important. The Reserve List really is the thing holding eternal formats back, and starting a new format at this point is truly symbolic.
Players should understand that a lot of history and diversity is lost by cutting it off at the arbitrary Mirrodin block. An older cutoff, as in the Overextended format being proposed by players online, is a much better solution.
People might be hesitant to support Overextended (older cutoff) because Wizards seems to be supporting Modern. This is silly. Wizards will support any format that receives player support. So if Overextended is the format that receives the most support, then it will be the format that ultimately thrives.
-ktkenshinx-
I have to disagree. Overextended is a very fun set up and could evolve a very fun playing format. That on top of the No card that matters Can be reprinted does help. Hmmm Format thrives but card is over rpiced. Drop it into a duel deck and no worries of warping Type 2 if its too powerfull for the current time. Card fits well for type 2 as well. hello MXX.
Too me Nothing will replace extended to me when it was tempest and such. That was a fun time even if I didnt win alot at that time of my life. It had its Aggro, combo, and control.
As much as I love to hear unsubstantiated opinions paraded around as facts, would you care to explain yourself to us?
Just the opposite.
As we've seen on these very forums, choosing the modern frames as your cutoff/guide makes many players think that all cards with modern frames are legal, while there are many which are not (those reprinted in special products, including the new Commander cards).
To avoid this confusion, they should choose some point other than the frame change.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
95% or more of the cards are easy to figure out. If people want to play this format competitively you don't think they can figure out the other 5%?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Though I do admit it's saving new players from buying old cards to keep up with the oldies.
I'd just rather have formats where players both old and new can interact without either spending a packet.
The problem isn't competitive players. For them, it doesn't really matter what the legality rules are. Give competitive players a list of 5000 legal cards out of the entire MTG cardpool and they'll do fine.
The problem is new/casual players. The point of the cardframe cutoff is so it is easy for a new/casual player to determine legality. The problem is that it misleads these very players into thinking that something like Dark Ritual is legal.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
The biggest reason I'm glad not to see onslaught block in modern is the idea of playing vs storm combo decks without FoW or hymn or wasteland... and going back to masques brings in dark ritual, among other things.
More or less, the further back you go prior to Mirrordin without including tempest, the more it favors fast kill combo, since creatures have experienced power creep whereas accelerants and combo cards have not.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Though there are plenty of cards in Invasion to Onslaught that aren't quite good enough for legacy, like Astral Slide or Fact or Fiction.
Actually not sure how Fact or Fiction stands when Jace TMS is legal.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
New players and casual players generally are going to play Standard or no format. If they are going to play Modern you don't think people will be smart enough to look at what cards are legal? You don't give people enough credit.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
The argument I was responding to was that the line being drawn at the frame change helps new/casual players easily determine what is legal and what isn't.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I am unsure if any format would kill Legacy. That's purely speculative at this point. But as to the similarities between Legacy and Overextended, I can say confidently that they are quite different. In the last two MTGO tournaments, winning decks have been Combo Elves, Living End, Affinity, All In Red, Astral Slide, Hive Mind, Twelvepost, Zoo, BW Midrange, and Madness. This is a huge range of decks, some of them viable in Legacy, but others totally unique to Overextended (although they are all from older formats, in some way).
Here are links to the Top 16s from the last two Overextended events on MTGO:
June 7: http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=422
May 31: http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=294
These events showcase the diversity of the format, a diversity that is necessarily larger than that of a smaller format (Modern).
The more diversity in an eternal format, the better the format is overall. An older cutoff (at Invasion and MM, once MTGO players get MM) gives more diversity and more strategies to new players.
As to the whole argument about card frames, helping out new players should not drive decisions to make a new eternal format. Legacy players are capable of learning a long and obscure banlist, some of which are obvious (Black Lotus) and some of which are less clear to the new players (Gush). but they still learn this and the format is successful. The same should be true of a new eternal format, and Overextended can be that format.
Mirrodin has an arbitrary cutoff that only serves to help out new players, but players who are interested in an eternal format are naturally going to have a sense of Magic sets and history. This group of players is going to be smart and experienced enough to understand the set legality without a visual aid.
Given the 10 years between Alpha-8th, it is quite a remarkable how the game has changed. Putting a new eternal format will keep more players interested, not less players. If WOTC keeps supporting more players - Modern is a no brainer.
As far as casual players are concerned don't you think they would prefer a format that is more flexible and where cards do not rotate as often. As a casual player myself, I prefer other formats over standard because of how often cards rotate. At least as far as I'm concerned this modern format seems like the perfect format for casual players. It's an eternal format so your cards never rotate and potentially expensive staples are all reprintable so hopefully WotC will take advantage of that.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6193029#post6193029
To his surprise, the sky responded with a fierce energy he'd never thought to see again.
I only know that there's so many people wanting to play legacy/eternal but can't because of the prices or don't because they are afraid of "broken" stuff like fow and turn2 combo wins.