logistically, a new card back for tournament play wouldn't make any difference. we can already play with double-faced cards in our decks so it's neither here nor there. We are already required to play sleeves that are fully opaque by the DCI so again no difference there.
aesthetic preference notwithstanding, the "i'll just leave the game forever" comments are childishly silly.
think about it - you (just like me) probably play magic a fair amount. FNMs, friend's houses, the occasional larger tournament maybe. When was the last time you played against an unsleeved deck? I haven't seen an unsleeved deck in years!
so on a basic level, how critical is the design on the back of the card to your enjoyment of the actual game? i'd wager that while we all think of it fondly, the answer is "basically it's not".
the vitriol here is unwarranted.
however there's a definite downside from the perspective of the type of player who doesn't engage with FNM, doesn't follow anything competitive, doesn't check on forums like these, only plays casually without sleeves and probably just brews whatever they want to without a format in mind. Those kinds of players though are also the kinds of players who would most likely shuffle 'world championship deck' cards in with regular ones, unsleeved, and not even bat an eyelid. I know this because I've been part of that kind of playgroup across multiple geographical areas. Frankly, those kinds of players wouldn't care.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
There is something aesthetically standing out with MTG back, because it feel kinda mature and mystical in vibe like dungeons and dragons in the 80s unlike the other card game back.
it does affect people that are into the hobby, it's not just game experience alone.
It's pretty normal for them to release 'alternate' card back sleeves every few years. What makes this design more/less likely to be considered as an actual card back change?
Not really
The latter with bolas were not easily confused as a back replacment
The 2nd and 5th were obviously sleeves.
The 4th didn't pose a threat on the backing because that was release as part of the first generation of ultrapro sleeves with strong magic themes.
The 3rd one interms of aesthetic wise is not a layout that can be confused for future card backing since it's part of a series of sleeves them by ultra pro.
I think the idea of a new MTG card back's got more to do with making the cards harder to counterfeit since the holo-stamp foils within rares and mythics are becoming a lot easier to replicate that ends up getting circulated into the market. Nobody wants to be caught cheating for using counterfeits in sanctioned tournaments even If they don't realize it before it's too late regardless of card sleeves.
If WotC improves the card stock quality of their cards without changing the card back then that could lead to more counterfeits getting circulated into the market as opposed to changing the card back where the counterfeits start to become a lot easier to spot unless they somehow manage to replicate the new card backs as well which could pose a serious problem for WotC.
Personally I think it would be in their best interest not to change the card back while finding new ways to combat counterfeiting as long as they commit to improving the card stock quality of their products. I don't think WotC is willing to take a potential financial loss from changing the card back in order to combat counterfeiting instead of fixing card stock quality without changing the card back.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I highly doubt they will change the card back. Why should they? I don't think the old card back is so off-putting that new or old players will not play the cards because they are too ugly on the side that doesn't matter whatsoever. Changing the card back would have huge implication and complications associated with it, for aesthetics only. Unlikely to happen.
... So how many of us here don't use card sleeves? I know changing the card back has harmed games before, but that was when no one was sleeving cards normally.
I don't think that should be a justification, ever.
OK, let's assume that WotC does decide to change the card back (besides DFC). We know they're not, just go with the flow here.
What is the larger message they're sending to players if they do ? It's certainly not, "oh, you guys play with sleeves anyways so what's the harm?" The larger message is WotC lost faith in their core paper product and feel the need to "reset" the game. It is basically WotC telling us they've abandoned the paper game.
And a game reset of that scale would basically excise the entire existing card pool. Something no sleeving would ever smooth over. There won't be a need for a reserved list because WotC won't be printing the P9 and family again anyways. Not if they want to control the meta like they've been doing.
Like I mentioned before, I can tolerate sleeves. I won't tolerate changing the paper card back.
But I digress. Reading my post it seems like it's pretty far off topic.
If WotC ever announces a change to the paper card backs, we can bring fire and brimstone onto their offices. Until then, I'll try to take this art at face value and refer back to my previous post.
Changing the card back doesn't send any message. What sends messages is the msrp of sets, the lack of paying for better quality control on the cards, and having a complete disconnect with the player base. If they did a grand reversal of this behavior; drop the price of reprint sets, promotional codes, good use of the DCI system to provide player rewards, etc, and followed this shift with a change to the card back, it would over all be a good thing.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on this aspect.
I think what neither your or I know for sure is just how many people would give a double middle finger to WotC if they did do a pretty drastic change. I know that I would do so. I have absolutely no qualms walking away from the game and never looking back if they did such a change. All the other changes in the past 25 years would pale in comparison.
As for the change in the digital product to the card back I'm not sure I am totally with them on doing it. I'd rather have something like this happen in both paper and online with the proper requisite shift to bring player confidence up. Otherwise it feels like change for the sake of change, rather than change with a purpose in mind.
The online component is an easy change to implement and an easy one to avoid. You and I both know this. Dynamic card backs would not diminish the play value of existing online cards.
I like the old back. If their weird disconnected focus test group says more people want the new back it's going to show up. I don't think they should be using two different card backs for paper and digital. Not really sure there's much to discuss here...
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Since we're going full baseless speculation: Would changing the card back allow reprinting cards from the reserved list?
I don't care either way, but I'm curious if card back is part of that promise.
Finding loopholes to keep their promise by word while reprinting cards anyway was never really a problem - If we want to discuss theoretical reserved list implications here we need to talk about that ominous "spirit of the reserved list" and I'm pretty sure that reprints with a new cardback would still violate it...
holy ****, I feel kinda awkward and ashamed of myself... I actually like the new design. Yes, I, one of the super pessimistic folks around here sorta like this.
Frankly, I'm excited about this. Endless drama if they're putting it on paper (which I really doubt), interesting discussion if it remains as is.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I actually hate this with a passion that burns like the sun.
See this is what I don't understand.
Like. This is such a bizarre hill to die on. You *hate* this... With a *passion*...?
Not racism, or domestic violence, or brutal dictatorship, or ethnic cleansing, political corruption, famine, war, or bullying, or even the undermining of intellectualism and learning by mainstream religion.
Nope. The thing you hate with a passion is a design of an oval with the word "magic" written at the top.
And I've seen similarly extreme comments repeated throughout this thread.
For real, what gives? This isn't a reasonable response or way to have a discussion about anything =(
and even if your actual viewpoint is a more reasonable "eh, i'm not a fan", why warp your language to the extent that there's literally no room for any kind of conversation anymore?
I actually hate this with a passion that burns like the sun.
See this is what I don't understand. Like. This is such a bizarre hill to die on. You *hate* this... With a *passion*...? Not racism, or domestic violence, or brutal dictatorship, or ethnic cleansing, political corruption, famine, war, or bullying, or even the undermining of intellectualism and learning by mainstream religion.
Did they say that they don't hate those things?
Do we really need virtue signaling in a forum about a card game?
I actually hate this with a passion that burns like the sun.
See this is what I don't understand.
Like. This is such a bizarre hill to die on. You *hate* this... With a *passion*...?
Not racism, or domestic violence, or brutal dictatorship, or ethnic cleansing, political corruption, famine, war, or bullying, or even the undermining of intellectualism and learning by mainstream religion.
Nope. The thing you hate with a passion is a design of an oval with the word "magic" written at the top.
And I've seen similarly extreme comments repeated throughout this thread.
For real, what gives? This isn't a reasonable response or way to have a discussion about anything =(
and even if your actual viewpoint is a more reasonable "eh, i'm not a fan", why warp your language to the extent that there's literally no room for any kind of conversation anymore?
It’s called hyperbole. Seriously, pull yourself together man. The hate is of course exaggerated and it’s of course within context of the game. In other words, it’s relative and nobody is comparing their feelings of a product in this game to something that has legitate social implications.
There’s probably not a person in this thread who is kept up at night because of the card backs.
Again. Hyperbole and relativity. It’s sad that this even needed to be laid out...
I hope they change the physical cardback into that horrible mess.
Not because I like it, but because it would destroy WOTC.
The game would live on without them and probably healthier if purchased by a decent company like FFG.
Because Fantasy Flight's card games are so great compared to MtG?
Yes actually. They've pushed the LCG model as far as it can go and consistently produce good games. Magic does not fit the LCG model but if FFG took over and continued with the TCG model we might at least have better cardstock quality and distribution.
And as we all know, developing great card games really comes down to card stock and distribution.
I actually hate this with a passion that burns like the sun.
See this is what I don't understand.
Like. This is such a bizarre hill to die on. You *hate* this... With a *passion*...?
Not racism, or domestic violence, or brutal dictatorship, or ethnic cleansing, political corruption, famine, war, or bullying, or even the undermining of intellectualism and learning by mainstream religion.
Nope. The thing you hate with a passion is a design of an oval with the word "magic" written at the top.
And I've seen similarly extreme comments repeated throughout this thread.
For real, what gives? This isn't a reasonable response or way to have a discussion about anything =(
and even if your actual viewpoint is a more reasonable "eh, i'm not a fan", why warp your language to the extent that there's literally no room for any kind of conversation anymore?
It’s called hyperbole. Seriously, pull yourself together man. The hate is of course exaggerated and it’s of course within context of the game. In other words, it’s relative and nobody is comparing their feelings of a product in this game to something that has legitate social implications.
There’s probably not a person in this thread who is kept up at night because of the card backs.
Again. Hyperbole and relativity. It’s sad that this even needed to be laid out...
Meh. That doesn't really excuse the use of a forum for discussion as a soapbox for empty hyperbole.
Look at it this way:
Someone enters a public sphere of discussion and their opening gambit is "i hate this with a passion" or "I'm going to leave the game". Where do you go from there? They've pre-escalated any opinion they held to the point of absurdity so that there's literally no discussion to be had.
At that point what we are seeing is people entering into a place for discussion, to just shut down the discussion. And for what? That's very close to the definition of trolling.
So if I took their comments at anything remotely close to face value, it was because I was giving them a shred of intellectual creditibility. What you seem to be suggesting is that nobody has anything worthwhle to say, and i should just ignore all of it as hyperbolic junk. That seems a bit pessimistic. I'm an optimist =P
As for the card back, would be great in Arena. Would look OK on sleeves. Would definitely fit the aesthetic of some sort of artifact deck, as far as themically choosing your sleeves goes. And there's no denying it's cleaner as a design.
Personally I would have liked it to have more colour. I feel like natural tones/hues suit this game more than black/white slick ones. The tonality of the game has always been based on the environments and as such has a 'lived in' feel. Somehow that needs to be represented by the card back. At this point we're all so used to the current one that it's difficult to analyse, but if there's a suitable replacement it won't be this new one.
let's talk paper:
logistically, a new card back for tournament play wouldn't make any difference. we can already play with double-faced cards in our decks so it's neither here nor there. We are already required to play sleeves that are fully opaque by the DCI so again no difference there.
aesthetic preference notwithstanding, the "i'll just leave the game forever" comments are childishly silly.
think about it - you (just like me) probably play magic a fair amount. FNMs, friend's houses, the occasional larger tournament maybe. When was the last time you played against an unsleeved deck? I haven't seen an unsleeved deck in years!
so on a basic level, how critical is the design on the back of the card to your enjoyment of the actual game? i'd wager that while we all think of it fondly, the answer is "basically it's not".
the vitriol here is unwarranted.
however there's a definite downside from the perspective of the type of player who doesn't engage with FNM, doesn't follow anything competitive, doesn't check on forums like these, only plays casually without sleeves and probably just brews whatever they want to without a format in mind. Those kinds of players though are also the kinds of players who would most likely shuffle 'world championship deck' cards in with regular ones, unsleeved, and not even bat an eyelid. I know this because I've been part of that kind of playgroup across multiple geographical areas. Frankly, those kinds of players wouldn't care.
it does affect people that are into the hobby, it's not just game experience alone.
Not really
The latter with bolas were not easily confused as a back replacment
The 2nd and 5th were obviously sleeves.
The 4th didn't pose a threat on the backing because that was release as part of the first generation of ultrapro sleeves with strong magic themes.
The 3rd one interms of aesthetic wise is not a layout that can be confused for future card backing since it's part of a series of sleeves them by ultra pro.
If WotC improves the card stock quality of their cards without changing the card back then that could lead to more counterfeits getting circulated into the market as opposed to changing the card back where the counterfeits start to become a lot easier to spot unless they somehow manage to replicate the new card backs as well which could pose a serious problem for WotC.
Personally I think it would be in their best interest not to change the card back while finding new ways to combat counterfeiting as long as they commit to improving the card stock quality of their products. I don't think WotC is willing to take a potential financial loss from changing the card back in order to combat counterfeiting instead of fixing card stock quality without changing the card back.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
I like the old back. If their weird disconnected focus test group says more people want the new back it's going to show up. I don't think they should be using two different card backs for paper and digital. Not really sure there's much to discuss here...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Finding loopholes to keep their promise by word while reprinting cards anyway was never really a problem - If we want to discuss theoretical reserved list implications here we need to talk about that ominous "spirit of the reserved list" and I'm pretty sure that reprints with a new cardback would still violate it...
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
Pretty much this !!!!
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Frankly, I'm excited about this. Endless drama if they're putting it on paper (which I really doubt), interesting discussion if it remains as is.
I actually hate this with a passion that burns like the sun.
See this is what I don't understand.
Like. This is such a bizarre hill to die on. You *hate* this... With a *passion*...?
Not racism, or domestic violence, or brutal dictatorship, or ethnic cleansing, political corruption, famine, war, or bullying, or even the undermining of intellectualism and learning by mainstream religion.
Nope. The thing you hate with a passion is a design of an oval with the word "magic" written at the top.
And I've seen similarly extreme comments repeated throughout this thread.
For real, what gives? This isn't a reasonable response or way to have a discussion about anything =(
and even if your actual viewpoint is a more reasonable "eh, i'm not a fan", why warp your language to the extent that there's literally no room for any kind of conversation anymore?
Do we really need virtue signaling in a forum about a card game?
It’s called hyperbole. Seriously, pull yourself together man. The hate is of course exaggerated and it’s of course within context of the game. In other words, it’s relative and nobody is comparing their feelings of a product in this game to something that has legitate social implications.
There’s probably not a person in this thread who is kept up at night because of the card backs.
Again. Hyperbole and relativity. It’s sad that this even needed to be laid out...
And as we all know, developing great card games really comes down to card stock and distribution.
Wholly Moolly where the heck did this come from. I did need a good laugh today though
Meh. That doesn't really excuse the use of a forum for discussion as a soapbox for empty hyperbole.
Look at it this way:
Someone enters a public sphere of discussion and their opening gambit is "i hate this with a passion" or "I'm going to leave the game". Where do you go from there? They've pre-escalated any opinion they held to the point of absurdity so that there's literally no discussion to be had.
At that point what we are seeing is people entering into a place for discussion, to just shut down the discussion. And for what? That's very close to the definition of trolling.
So if I took their comments at anything remotely close to face value, it was because I was giving them a shred of intellectual creditibility. What you seem to be suggesting is that nobody has anything worthwhle to say, and i should just ignore all of it as hyperbolic junk. That seems a bit pessimistic. I'm an optimist =P
As for the card back, would be great in Arena. Would look OK on sleeves. Would definitely fit the aesthetic of some sort of artifact deck, as far as themically choosing your sleeves goes. And there's no denying it's cleaner as a design.
Personally I would have liked it to have more colour. I feel like natural tones/hues suit this game more than black/white slick ones. The tonality of the game has always been based on the environments and as such has a 'lived in' feel. Somehow that needs to be represented by the card back. At this point we're all so used to the current one that it's difficult to analyse, but if there's a suitable replacement it won't be this new one.
Just a reminder: There is no indication that WotC will soon or ever change the card backs of physical cards.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝