In Masques we got political goblins, Lorwyn we got happy goblins, Kamigawa we got goofy goblins; but all we've ever had were some dwarfy dwarves and a weird blue dwarf archmage
We had explorer and merchant dwarves in the same set as the archmage dwarf (Homelands), so there is that. Oh, and barbaric dwarves in Otaria (Odyssey).
We also had a single vampire dwarf, and she was awesome (Irini Sengir from Homelands).
Oh, and Nomadic Dwarves (Mirage).
We also had Duregar in Shadowmoor (they had the Dwarf subtype - just like Selkies had the Merfolk subtype)
Although - I remember reading an article where MaRo said that if they did Dwarves again, they'd likely be in white... and maybe they wouldn't live underground... and maybe they'd be a little taller. (Basically implying that Dwarves were too similar to Humans to be worth doing) I wonder what changes his mind.
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
I like humans, dwarfs and elves vs orc, goblins and trolls. So I totally want those tribes be represented very well in magic. Dwarf could be the twist red needs. A reverse of goblins, bad stats but value in what they do.
Been doing some digging - it sounds like Dwarves will be white moving forwards;
Aren't you looking for a characteristic white race that people who don't play Magic get? Why not dwarves?
Quote from MaRo »
That’s a very common answer. The issue is can we do dwarves in a way that feels right and feels very white?
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
Even if Dwarves become a major presence in white (and considering their distant cousins, the Giants, have tromped around in white for ages, why not?), I still expect them to have a noticeable presence in red. I think of it as Goblins leaning towards BR and Dwarves towards RW (though the odd greedy Dwarf fits black).
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Dwarf, humans and angels on white sound good. I wonder if they will keep the kinkin on white too.
Kithkin will always be white, all the way back to Amrou Kithkin well and white/blue thanks to shadowmoor. That said I don't think Kithkin are a major thing they want to do over and over again - their appearance in Lorwyn felt like a nod to older magic players who liked the Amrou. That and they needed a white race that wasn't Human.
Never say never, but I don't think we'll see Kithkin in any large numbers moving forward barring a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (which is unlikely)
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
I have a suspicion (or at least a pipe dream) that the block after Kaladesh may be high fantasy, with R/W dwarves, and an Equipment matters theme, at least in that faction... They are seeding equipment pretty hard in Innistrad 2...
Or maybe there's going to be a R/W equip matters theme in Kaladesh, since there's the RW uncommon that cares about equipment in BFZ...
Dwarf, humans and angels on white sound good. I wonder if they will keep the kinkin on white too.
Kithkin will always be white, all the way back to Amrou Kithkin well and white/blue thanks to shadowmoor. That said I don't think Kithkin are a major thing they want to do over and over again - their appearance in Lorwyn felt like a nod to older magic players who liked the Amrou. That and they needed a white race that wasn't Human.
Never say never, but I don't think we'll see Kithkin in any large numbers moving forward barring a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (which is unlikely)
It has been mentioned by Maro that they where testing out Kithkin in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor to be whites new characteristic race, but that the experiment was a failure because they turned out not to be a very popular tribe appearance wise. I am sure that had absolutely nothing to do with them being squarely in the middle of the uncanny valley with their oversized heads and eyes. /sarcasm
Seriously, if they had looked more like the Amrou from Dominaria and less like bug-eyed goblins, they'd probably been a bigger success.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
As others have said, we don't know of any races on Kaladesh except for humans, which is quite odd. If they stick to the Indian theme, I would expect Naga, Rakshasa, Djinn, and Efreet, but Dwarves would also be a good fit for the artifact theme (although goblins and Vedalken would fit for the same reason, they both are also associated with artifacts). But of course, even we don't see them on Kaladesh we will see them fairly soon.
As others have said, we don't know of any races on Kaladesh except for humans, which is quite odd. If they stick to the Indian theme, I would expect Naga, Rakshasa, Djinn, and Efreet, but Dwarves would also be a good fit for the artifact theme (although goblins and Vedalken would fit for the same reason, they both are also associated with artifacts). But of course, even we don't see them on Kaladesh we will see them fairly soon.
The only race I am expecting outside of humans in Kaladesh are Loxodons.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Vedalken would be good too, both because they have precedent as artificers and because the blue skin (and in some cases multiple arms) fits Indian aesthetics, even though Kaladesh is not the Indian mythology plane per se.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I could see Dwarves in Kaladesh, but if they're not here, which I think is simmilarly likely to them being here, then the next place we could see them would be a Norse inspired world. In fact, if (or perhaps just when) we see such a plane, I would be pretty surprised if we didn't see them. Perhaps they are even saving up their return as a hype point for such set.
I could see Dwarves in Kaladesh, but if they're not here, which I think is simmilarly likely to them being here, then the next place we could see them would be a Norse inspired world. In fact, if (or perhaps just when) we see such a plane, I would be pretty surprised if we didn't see them. Perhaps they are even saving up their return as a hype point for such set.
Well, if there ever was any doubt about the eventual return of dwarves in M:TG, Maro just removed it:
spider-nac asked: But, dwarfs? Will we ever hear of Balthor again?
Well, I'm ok with only having dwarves for one block - tribes are only used as needed, which is why werewolves are exclusively from Innistrad, and kithkin are exclusively from Lowryn blocks.
Dwarves of fantasy are usually artificiers and engineers, and would fit naturally on Kaladesh, as its been shown so far (lots of foundrys, thopters, not a lot of natural mages).
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Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
They are usually very organized with emphasis on community. If you see dwarf armies in basically any fantasy, it's all perfectly ordered tight formations. The "dwarf warrior" archetype is an ironclad fighter who stands his ground no matter what. Also, their society tends to be pretty rigid with a lot of defined rules. This all fits the white worldwiev.
That said, their avarice and the "dwarf berserker" archetype shift them towards red.
They are usually very organized with emphasis on community. If you see dwarf armies in basically any fantasy, it's all perfectly ordered tight formations. The "dwarf warrior" archetype is an ironclad fighter who stands his ground no matter what. Also, their society tends to be pretty rigid with a lot of defined rules. This all fits the white worldwiev.
That said, their avarice and the "dwarf berserker" archetype shift them towards red.
Basically the main reason why dwarves were made mostly red is that they live in mountains...
Also, I personally would love a large white-centric tribe other than humans. Humans are seen in all colors, and it should be kept that way (they are the "jack of all trades" race in most fantasy). Although they do make sense as a mostly white tribe in some settings, such as Innistrad where they make the main opposition to monsters.
They are usually very organized with emphasis on community. If you see dwarf armies in basically any fantasy, it's all perfectly ordered tight formations. The "dwarf warrior" archetype is an ironclad fighter who stands his ground no matter what. Also, their society tends to be pretty rigid with a lot of defined rules. This all fits the white worldwiev.
That said, their avarice and the "dwarf berserker" archetype shift them towards red.
Avarice is more black than red, but red is the color of desire, so it comes down to material value vs. emotional value I suppose. All the same, I could see greedy Dwarves fitting in black. Dwarves could easily be Mardu, just as Elves can easily be Abzan.
Basically the main reason why dwarves were made mostly red is that they live in mountains...
Also, I personally would love a large white-centric tribe other than humans. Humans are seen in all colors, and it should be kept that way (they are the "jack of all trades" race in most fantasy). Although they do make sense as a mostly white tribe in some settings, such as Innistrad where they make the main opposition to monsters.
Dwarves do also have a temper, most often sparked by wounded pride. Again, Dwarves could easily be Mardu, especially if there are distinct clans of Dwarves each with its own personality.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Now, note that this article dates from 2005, and since it's in Archive and the images are long dead, here's a quick rundown: They explain the colors, why they were red, why they should be White and why they stopped using them, as well as trying to make them mono-red that make sense in a fantasy world, and with their "changes" they slowly creep up towards a more fantasy-aligned dwarf that is mono-Red and isn't just a "short human". It used to be many pictures of the changes in the article, showing the transformation.
Long story short, their changes into mono-Red Dwarves creates Goblins.
Glad to see Dwarves making a comeback. As much as I have enjoyed the unique races and creatures Magic has created that are unique to it (slivers, Kithkin, etc) I've wanted to see creatures that harken back to traditional high fantasy other than Dragons and Elves (though I love me some dragons). Would like to see this trend continue, I feel like Magic is lacking in the Unicorns department for a fantasy game.
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Black desires power. Dwarves don't desire power, but gems like rubies and such. Black dwarves make no sense at all short them being zombie dwarves like balthor the defiled. Goblins are mostly red with some having a little black being goblins = chaos. Dwarves aren't mono red because dwarves have order. They are almost more white than red. When we see dwarves again they will be boros aligned maybe favoring white more.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Because Tolkein's dwarves are white. Look at the mines of moria, both in description and in every image made of them; those are made by a hard working, dedicated, ordered group. Thorin is white (although becomes white/black later) - he's out for vengence (white) but he's not rushing in beserk; he plans and takes the time needed. (Granted his plan for dealing with smaug is terrible, because how the hell was any thief ever going to get past the old wurm, seriously). Thorin doesn't want to be king for fun, or profit; he wants it because It Is His Birthright.
Sure, the dwarves like food and drinking - there is a secondary red element to dwarves, but dwarves love laws, and work, and family.
Pratchett's dwarves also fit this mold perfectly; they're so lawful they can barely stand to know each others genders because...well it's what the law says.
Dwarves are really easily sold as white, with the occasional RW as well. Plus, the notion that you could just make them taller and call them human is (to the extent true) not a drawback; yes, heaps of random military white creatures could be dwarves. That's great!
I agree with the idea of Dwarves showing up in both red and white, but I would like to mention Dwarves can also be portrayed as capitalistic and greedy, which gives them potential to be black as well. I'd be fine with Dwarves being chiefly Boros with some occasional black outliers. I'm also fine with Dwarves being closely associated with artifacts, especially Equipment.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I would envision dwarves as metallurgists that believe welding, building, and metalworking is an extension of the natural world. They have an innate ability to distinguish alloys from natural metals, and disdain the use of any alloys not created through dwarven magic-forges. The dwarves' greatest creations are "living alloys" that assume shapes and forms indicated by the dwarves' thoughts. It isn't unusual for my dwarves to militarize against factories that employ non-dwarven alloys, enacting a form of blue magic that alters these factories' alloys on a molecular level - converting them into dwarven-made alloys.
I see my dwarves as Red, Green and Blue.
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We also had Duregar in Shadowmoor (they had the Dwarf subtype - just like Selkies had the Merfolk subtype)
Although - I remember reading an article where MaRo said that if they did Dwarves again, they'd likely be in white... and maybe they wouldn't live underground... and maybe they'd be a little taller. (Basically implying that Dwarves were too similar to Humans to be worth doing) I wonder what changes his mind.
Been doing some digging - it sounds like Dwarves will be white moving forwards;
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Kithkin will always be white, all the way back to Amrou Kithkin well and white/blue thanks to shadowmoor. That said I don't think Kithkin are a major thing they want to do over and over again - their appearance in Lorwyn felt like a nod to older magic players who liked the Amrou. That and they needed a white race that wasn't Human.
Never say never, but I don't think we'll see Kithkin in any large numbers moving forward barring a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (which is unlikely)
Or maybe there's going to be a R/W equip matters theme in Kaladesh, since there's the RW uncommon that cares about equipment in BFZ...
It has been mentioned by Maro that they where testing out Kithkin in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor to be whites new characteristic race, but that the experiment was a failure because they turned out not to be a very popular tribe appearance wise. I am sure that had absolutely nothing to do with them being squarely in the middle of the uncanny valley with their oversized heads and eyes. /sarcasm
Seriously, if they had looked more like the Amrou from Dominaria and less like bug-eyed goblins, they'd probably been a bigger success.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Yeah, they kinda did look like a crazy-eyed cousin of a goblin, didn't they?
I'm still amazed that they manage to get their shirts on with those melon sized heads of theirs.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
The only race I am expecting outside of humans in Kaladesh are Loxodons.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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Well, if there ever was any doubt about the eventual return of dwarves in M:TG, Maro just removed it:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/148526925888/but-dwarfs-will-we-ever-hear-of-balthor-again
Note, he said that we haven't seen the last of them, he made no mention on *when* they are returning.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Dwarves of fantasy are usually artificiers and engineers, and would fit naturally on Kaladesh, as its been shown so far (lots of foundrys, thopters, not a lot of natural mages).
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
Standard:
RB Madness Vamps
Casual:
Formerly Modern Elfball
They are usually very organized with emphasis on community. If you see dwarf armies in basically any fantasy, it's all perfectly ordered tight formations. The "dwarf warrior" archetype is an ironclad fighter who stands his ground no matter what. Also, their society tends to be pretty rigid with a lot of defined rules. This all fits the white worldwiev.
That said, their avarice and the "dwarf berserker" archetype shift them towards red.
that makes sense then, thanks
Also, I personally would love a large white-centric tribe other than humans. Humans are seen in all colors, and it should be kept that way (they are the "jack of all trades" race in most fantasy). Although they do make sense as a mostly white tribe in some settings, such as Innistrad where they make the main opposition to monsters.
Avarice is more black than red, but red is the color of desire, so it comes down to material value vs. emotional value I suppose. All the same, I could see greedy Dwarves fitting in black. Dwarves could easily be Mardu, just as Elves can easily be Abzan.
Dwarves do also have a temper, most often sparked by wounded pride. Again, Dwarves could easily be Mardu, especially if there are distinct clans of Dwarves each with its own personality.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Now, note that this article dates from 2005, and since it's in Archive and the images are long dead, here's a quick rundown: They explain the colors, why they were red, why they should be White and why they stopped using them, as well as trying to make them mono-red that make sense in a fantasy world, and with their "changes" they slowly creep up towards a more fantasy-aligned dwarf that is mono-Red and isn't just a "short human". It used to be many pictures of the changes in the article, showing the transformation.
Long story short, their changes into mono-Red Dwarves creates Goblins.
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Currently Playing:
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Because Tolkein's dwarves are white. Look at the mines of moria, both in description and in every image made of them; those are made by a hard working, dedicated, ordered group. Thorin is white (although becomes white/black later) - he's out for vengence (white) but he's not rushing in beserk; he plans and takes the time needed. (Granted his plan for dealing with smaug is terrible, because how the hell was any thief ever going to get past the old wurm, seriously). Thorin doesn't want to be king for fun, or profit; he wants it because It Is His Birthright.
Sure, the dwarves like food and drinking - there is a secondary red element to dwarves, but dwarves love laws, and work, and family.
Pratchett's dwarves also fit this mold perfectly; they're so lawful they can barely stand to know each others genders because...well it's what the law says.
Dwarves are really easily sold as white, with the occasional RW as well. Plus, the notion that you could just make them taller and call them human is (to the extent true) not a drawback; yes, heaps of random military white creatures could be dwarves. That's great!
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I see my dwarves as Red, Green and Blue.