I feel like printing slightly nerfed duals (like ETB when fetched) is a TERRIBLE idea. It wouldn't do anything to help new players enter Legacy competitively, and it would make enfranchised players' manabases EVEN BETTER.
Sorry, no.
Us Legacy players don't always run full sets of duals. So it wouldn't make our bases even better, just slightly more diverse facing off against a Surgical Extraction.
I'm all for removing the original duals off the reserved list, it needs to be done. Or snow lands that are functionally identical is fine too. To me, it just isn't a problem. I've played since the days of Alpha, and I still enjoy my less than 1k vintage deck that can randomly pummel a 20k vintage deck. My point is, I know about when the Reserve List was formed and why. The Reserve List was the only thing that saved MtG from dying like every other CCG in that day. Decipher lost both Star Trek and Wars, and one of their biggest problems was the way they printed certain cards. Then there were 10 other CCGs around, and they battled it out. CCGs like Pokemon survived, but Overpower was gone. Most upperdeck games fell apart. Decipher overprinted set after set and came around with things like Reflections which led to its demise. MtG almost did themselves in with the Dark, Fallen Empires, 4th Edition, 5th Edition, Homelands, and Chronicles. It made collectors extremely nervous seeing all the other card games failing and then their card values dropped like a rock. I personally sold a collection of Star Wars CCG cards which at the time of their high was around 10k but because of Reflections and the Unlimited sets the collection was worth a bit less than 1k. Some people are retro gaming, but it matters very little now anyway. The fact is, Decipher had a fantastic game, but due to things like I mentioned it ultimately failed.
Doomtrooper, Middle-earth, OverPower, Rage, Shadowfist, Legend of the Five Ring.... How many of them made it?
MtG.... sales lagged. The time between Ice Age and Alliances? The longest gap in the history of MtG. It was rumored to have closed its doors although some people were laid off.... That was why.... WotC wasn't in a stable place, MtG was new, and it was was the start of the entire craze for CCGs. It wasn't until after 2000 where the CCGs everywhere stabilized. Now, with as established as MtG is, they are the leader of the CCG community and other companies emulate MtG. Although, MtG has adopted things like mythic rare from Pokemon CCG. Now they're doing starter walkers and cards specific to starter sets, much like some of the other CCGs. But a lot of other companies now take their cues from WotC as the premiere flagship of the CCG world.
And one thing many people agree about, is that there needs to be something done about the reserved list and the eternal formats. I personally say, leave Vintage alone. It isn't worth printing those power 9.... However, that brings us to what is worth reprinting....... The duals. Hell, if Wizards reprinted all the duals and had direct orders for 100 each they would sell out instantly.
But that isn't the point... The point is, Snow Duals today... Can WotC do it and survive? Yes.
I'm about to say something that isn't popular, but I don't care. The Reserve List is there for a reason. It stands as proof of honesty and loyalty to us original Magic players/collectors and we have been through a rough time watching other companies collapse one after another. The Reserve List should stay intact. It isn't worth it to get rid of the entire list and decide to reprint the cards wholesale. One, it will never work out the way we'd want. Two, it would royally piss off the collectors and vintage/legacy players. Personally, I believe certain cards should be reprinted. But if they can't, doing it in the form of snow duals or a legendary candelabra would work just fine to me. The question is how and where such cards could be safely inserted? If they were like the masterpieces, you'd see a high amount of product opened, oversaturation of the market, and a possible collapse because people will be hurt when they go through cases just to find one snow dual. It's unfeasible at the least, and the death knell of MtG at the worst.
It could be totally new product, printed in places like the commander sets, conspiracy sets, or as completely new cards in something like Eternal Masters. Sales would skyrocket and even the playing field without having to touch modern or standard. As it is, MaRo's questions about snow duals are rhetorical. They will never see play in a standard format.
You're not replying to what I was stating though. One argument I can read on this topic is the "snow" mechanic is enough of a difference because some cards make use of it. But Captain Sisay (and possibly future printed cards) could search for a legendary land. So what's the technical/legal difference between Legendary and Snow here ? Both can be interacted with because of their supertype. It makes no sense to pretend Snow is different enough from Legendary, so Wizards can print Snow Taiga in a glimpse. Neither of these supertypes are enough actually, this is real life. That's precisely why Maro has led the discussion towards acceptable drawbacks for legacy standards.
You can fight over technical differences here and finally be right, but reality is that the legal threshold from where Wizards can print dual lands lies above the supertype discussion. It doesn't mean that, on top of a real drawback, those lands wouldn't be Snow and/or Legendary.
Besides, you stipulate it would be too good in standard, but it's not a relevant point, hopefully. Those lands would be printed in Commander, Conspiracy or whatever pack that does not concern the standard environment anyway.
All three current supertypes change the way a card works. Legendary and World both work in a similar way in that you can only have one copy of any given legendary card on the battlefield under your control, while World Enchantments effectively destroy any other world enchantments on the battlefield when they enter play. Snow in the same way fundamentally changes the interactions the card in question has. The mana from snow permanents can be used to activate abilities that require the snow symbol (S), while a the mana from a non-snow permanent can not. THAT MAKES THE CARDS FUNCTIONALLY DIFFERENT, which was the entire point of the discussion. In addition other cards with the Snow Supertype are affected by cards that care about said supertype (such as Rimescale Dragon and Rimefeather Owl), while nonsnow permanents do not. I reiterate, the Snow Supertype makes a card functionally different from a card that lacks the supertype. Which fulfills the requirements stated by the reserved list in regards to similarity.
You are demonstrably incorrect here. You are using an inverse WOTC term, "functionally different" as compared to "functionally identical," and equivocating it with your own definition. The definition for "functionally identical" – and therefore by extension "functionally different" - has already been provided. I will provide it again:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
There is no mention of supertype in their definition. And that's not just quibbling on terms, as supertype has its own section (separate from type and subtype) in the comp rules (see section 205.4). Any lawyer worth their salt would put those two pieces together and make a watertight case that WOTC broke their promise to not print functionally identical cards as those on the reserved list. It doesn't matter what kind of argument you bring about the functionality of the card as it pertains to the game or interaction with other cards. WOTC has defined Snow Taiga as functionally identical to Taiga and therefore cannot print it (see below for proof). If you want to argue it, argue with how WOTC defined functionally identical.
Functional comparison of Taiga / Snow Taiga Card Types - Land / Land (same) Card Subtypes - Mountain & Forest / Mountain & Forest (same) Abilities - T: add R to your mana pool & T: Add G to your mana pool / T: add R to your mana pool & T: Add G to your mana pool (same) Mana Cost - no mana cost / no mana cost (same) Power - N/A / N/A (same) Toughness - N/A / N/A (same) Result of comparison - functionally identical as per WOTC definition
Except they are still not the same because, and I reiterate, the mana produced is different because of the supertype. Snow mana makes the card functionally different.
And you would be wrong. Snow mana is not different mana. Here is a link to Arctic Flats on Gatherer. The text on the card and the Oracle text show the same thing. It produces regular G and regular W. Don't agree with me still? Let's consult the comp rules again:
107.4h The snow mana symbol {S} represents one generic mana in a cost. This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent (see rule 205.4f). Effects that
reduce the amount of generic mana you pay don’t affect {S} costs. (There is no such thing as “snow mana”; “snow” is not a type of mana.)
Once again, WOTC contradicts your opinion in their official, published document. Snow mana does not exist. There is nothing different about the mana. It is regular mana. Now, the card itself has a unique supertype that allows its mana to be used for a specific purpose, namely, to pay for S. It would be like if WOTC printed a card that had cost "M," where "M" can only be paid with mana produced from lands with artists whose names begin with the letter M. In no way does it change the mana the land produces, but it does limit the number of lands that can pay the cost. It also doesn't make a Mountain whose artist is Mark Tedin functionally different from one whose artist is Cliff Childs, yet both of those Mountains could not pay the cost of the made up card. The artist clearly does not affect gameplay and plays no role in functional equivalency, but my example does demonstrate that a difference in the source of card based on a characteristic that is not defined on the functional equivalency comparison does not affect functional equivalency.
The fact that there is a special symbol to signify that only the mana produced from snow permanents can be used to activate an ability shows that you are wrong, regardless of what you and the document claims.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Are you guys forgetting the supplemental products that aren't legal in Standard or Modern are legal in Eternal formats? Reprinting the dual lands with the snow archetype outside of Standard is very possible - that way you avoid warping Standard and Modern. If these snow duals were printed in the next commander products, which revolved around the snow mechanic, then you'd get a ton of snow-covered basic lands, probably a basic dual in each combination pertinent to your commander, and you'd be able to use them in vintage. This fixes a lot of the issues.
Another possibility (probably the most probable one) is visiting a new plane with a new supplemental product like Fiora with Conspiracy. If a new "format" is created (like draft-matters with Conspiracy) with a new snow-themed plane, then it's very possible that, instead of having Conspiracy in summer, we'll probably go to a new plane - maybe viking in theme - and this would be the way to get these snow duals. Then, once that happens, you'd probably have another chance to be able to get them in an Eternal Masters release like most legends from Conspiracy and Dack Fayden.
I honestly see no problem in reprinting dual lands as snow-covered. Most legacy decks don't run full playsets of any dual land. This would make it very accessible to play legacy. Also, commander players can have better mana bases.
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The fact that there is a special symbol to signify that only the mana produced from snow permanents can be used to activate an ability shows that you are wrong, regardless of what you and the document claims.
You realize you just stated that the WOTC-official document claims something different from what you are claiming, yes? By doing so, you are admitting that you and WOTC differ on this point. A point about the WOTC game rules and game itself. The game that WOTC owns, controls, defines, legitimizes, etc. It's like arguing with parents about the name of their child. "No, you didn't name your child Sandy. Her name is Sam. It doesn't matter what your official birth certificate shows."
But, with that, I am out. I can see that you won't change your opinion regardless of the facts presented to you, and that's your prerogative.
This is so funny to read. I see Artic Flats was brought up, but nothing about Llanowar Wastes or other enemy lands.
With the way that the talk is going in this thread, why not just print snow-City of Brasses (about 5 different names ones would do) and remove the loss of life that occurs? Because every (new) non-monocolored deck would run them and they'd be better to run than basic lands (I mean 20 of these in a non EDH deck? That solves the brunt of my problems in my 20 some decks). Everyone assumes a functional (yes, Shut the F*** up I read this thread I know your opinions and the opposition) reprints of the original duals as snows.
ITS NOT HAPPENING. Mark Rosewater was talking about different limitations for them. If he prints Snow-Tiaga, I'm going to preorder the Black Lotus that doesn't need to be sacrificed that WILL OBVIOUSLY BE RELEASED in THAT SAME SET.
Some gems who people who didn't read the twitter thread:
-The immediate resounding "no, most people don't use a playset [of an original dual] anyway"
-"Legacy is tight on resources" as to the shockland route
-"The land base is the only thing keeping people out of legacy" MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAH HAAHAHAHAHA WHOOOHHOHOOHOOOO!
You guys can argue rulings and reserve list legalities for ten more pages, I'm sure I'm not the only one enjoying it.
I'm about to say something that isn't popular, but I don't care. The Reserve List is there for a reason. It stands as proof of honesty and loyalty to us original Magic players/collectors and we have been through a rough time watching other companies collapse one after another.
And conversely, it stands as an example of what NOT to do: put some other considerations above the health and longevity of the game. Wizards' business model relies on selling sealed product. To deliberately limit themselves, for the benefit of a very, very tiny fraction of the total number of players, is immeasurably stupid. Not only does it cut off all profit from potential reprints of those cards, it funnels wealth into the hands of resellers and generally makes more players unhappy with the system than are happy with it. Yes, hardcore Legacy players want to keep the RL. Meanwhile, kitchen table players don't care and EDh (a very large and still growing format) would REALLY like these cards to be available. The current system considers a 2-decade old promise made to a few thousand players to be more important than the current, ongoing availability of cards to the millions who would be willing to buy them.
The Reserve List should stay intact. It isn't worth it to get rid of the entire list and decide to reprint the cards wholesale. One, it will never work out the way we'd want. Two, it would royally piss off the collectors and vintage/legacy players.
The Reserve list should go. In strictly dollars and cents, it's ABSOLUTELY worth it to WotC to tell all the resellers "It's our IP, we can print whatever we want, and selling sealed product and maintaining a large, active playerbase is our primary goal." One, you're right, they'd never print ENOUGH to tank the prices of cards (The playerbase has grown so much, that Chronicles would be a "limited print run" at today's normal print run sizes), and two, Collectors? no. Speculators? yes, but speculators are parasites who are trying to simply extract value. Also, would it really piss you off, knowing that you could actually find Legacy games at your LGS? Knowing that you still have a deck full of original printings that will make people jealous? If you're really serious about playing Legacy, how oes having a larger number of opponents hurt you?
Personally, I believe certain cards should be reprinted. But if they can't, doing it in the form of snow duals or a legendary candelabra would work just fine to me. The question is how and where such cards could be safely inserted? If they were like the masterpieces, you'd see a high amount of product opened, oversaturation of the market, and a possible collapse because people will be hurt when they go through cases just to find one snow dual. It's unfeasible at the least, and the death knell of MtG at the worst.
It's been 21(?) years since Chronicles and Homelands, both of which were massively overprinted. Since then, have they massively overprinted any black-border set? Enough to tank the prices of every card in it like we saw with Chronicles and Homelands? Wizards really isn't stupid. They generally have a good idea of how much of a product they can sell, and likely what the effect it will have on prices, even if they never actually discuss it. Tanking the prices, making $500 cards into 50-cent bulk, is astronomically unlikely unless they deliberately try to do it by overprinting on a scale that, honestly, means printing more of each reprint than there are of any given Rare in Standard. That's what it took to drop Khans fetches, to drop Thoughtseize, to drop Mutavault: that level of reprinting. And even for those, they dropped in value, but none of them completely lost all value, and the original printings held value a lot better than the reprints.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
doindoi asked:
A lot of people are talking about this after the twitter snow land mention and I'm curious about what the official stance on it is. Are you allowed to make snow double lands without drawbacks?
I’m not sure. It would require a company wide discussion. The legendary version has a clearer path to seeing the light of day, but even that would still require a discussion.
It would be nice if they had that company wide discussion and said they could and would do it, but even if that happened it would be years before we saw snow duals in the hands of players though that's always the case with their printing schedules.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
@krishnath : no, the RL and associated technical stuff isn't the whole point of the discussion, and as I said, you may win the fight people have with you here (about technical details), it doesn't change the fact real life isn't heading in your direction anyway. There will not be Duals without drawbacks, period. Fighting over this is not constructive at all, and rather naive. I (and others) suggest you to drop it and move on.
The only thing to be glad about here is that MaRo, who has some weight I guess, started the discussion, meaning there might be a chance they print simili-Duals soon (late 2017, 2018 ?). He may be interested in getting feedback from the Legacy+ community. BUT, don't get it wrong. If Duals get printed, the main purpose will be "playability --> money", meaning an attractive product in the casual sphere, where the majority of players buy pre-built decks, packs and boosters. The Legacy community will only be a collateral beneficiary, the same way it's affected by Conspiracy and Commander products.
The only thing the Magic community can do to accelerate / put in Wizards' minds such printings is to talk about it, write articles, support anything that deals with it. Otherwise, they'll focus on the thousand things they already planned and think is more priority.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Jesus, are you still talking about removing cards from the Reserved List?
WOTC won't ever do that, it's simply not worth fighting breach of contract lawsuits one after another. They have repeatedly stated that the Reserved List was their biggest mistake, but that they will still honor it.
Abolishing the Reserved List would make Legacy more affordable and they know it, they know reprints would fly off the shelves, and yet they have never even so much as hinted at the slightest possibility of it happening, which means that they are either:
A) Really stupid when it comes down to business so they would NOT print a guaranteed massive seller just because.
B) Not willing to risk fighting the legal fallout of investors seeing their collections lose value, even if that is still debatable, just look at how much an Alpha Shivan Dragon can cost versus the 0,30€ worth later printings of a card that sees zero competitive play.
I think the answer is obvious.
On the other hand, snow duals sound...wait for it, cool. With the support snow is getting in MH, I wouldn't be surprised if the next plane we visit in Standard is a snow-based one.
Jesus, are you still talking about removing cards from the Reserved List?
WOTC won't ever do that, it's simply not worth fighting breach of contract lawsuits one after another. They have repeatedly stated that the Reserved List was their biggest mistake, but that they will still honor it.
Abolishing the Reserved List would make Legacy more affordable and they know it, they know reprints would fly off the shelves, and yet they have never even so much as hinted at the slightest possibility of it happening, which means that they are either:
A) Really stupid when it comes down to business so they would NOT print a guaranteed massive seller just because.
B) Not willing to risk fighting the legal fallout of investors seeing their collections lose value, even if that is still debatable, just look at how much an Alpha Shivan Dragon can cost versus the 0,30€ worth later printings of a card that sees zero competitive play.
I think the answer is obvious.
On the other hand, snow duals sound...wait for it, cool. With the support snow is getting in MH, I wouldn't be surprised if the next plane we visit in Standard is a snow-based one.
WotC could remove the reserved list tomorrow if they so desired. It is policy, policies change. They wouldn't be able to reprint cards from it for one full production cycle to avoid lawsuits, but as all policies, they can remove or change it at their discretion, and the people who champion that it should remain (most of which don't even play the game, and haven't since prior to Ice Age) can't do anything about it but cry.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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Sorry, no.
Us Legacy players don't always run full sets of duals. So it wouldn't make our bases even better, just slightly more diverse facing off against a Surgical Extraction.
I'm all for removing the original duals off the reserved list, it needs to be done. Or snow lands that are functionally identical is fine too. To me, it just isn't a problem. I've played since the days of Alpha, and I still enjoy my less than 1k vintage deck that can randomly pummel a 20k vintage deck. My point is, I know about when the Reserve List was formed and why. The Reserve List was the only thing that saved MtG from dying like every other CCG in that day. Decipher lost both Star Trek and Wars, and one of their biggest problems was the way they printed certain cards. Then there were 10 other CCGs around, and they battled it out. CCGs like Pokemon survived, but Overpower was gone. Most upperdeck games fell apart. Decipher overprinted set after set and came around with things like Reflections which led to its demise. MtG almost did themselves in with the Dark, Fallen Empires, 4th Edition, 5th Edition, Homelands, and Chronicles. It made collectors extremely nervous seeing all the other card games failing and then their card values dropped like a rock. I personally sold a collection of Star Wars CCG cards which at the time of their high was around 10k but because of Reflections and the Unlimited sets the collection was worth a bit less than 1k. Some people are retro gaming, but it matters very little now anyway. The fact is, Decipher had a fantastic game, but due to things like I mentioned it ultimately failed.
Doomtrooper, Middle-earth, OverPower, Rage, Shadowfist, Legend of the Five Ring.... How many of them made it?
MtG.... sales lagged. The time between Ice Age and Alliances? The longest gap in the history of MtG. It was rumored to have closed its doors although some people were laid off.... That was why.... WotC wasn't in a stable place, MtG was new, and it was was the start of the entire craze for CCGs. It wasn't until after 2000 where the CCGs everywhere stabilized. Now, with as established as MtG is, they are the leader of the CCG community and other companies emulate MtG. Although, MtG has adopted things like mythic rare from Pokemon CCG. Now they're doing starter walkers and cards specific to starter sets, much like some of the other CCGs. But a lot of other companies now take their cues from WotC as the premiere flagship of the CCG world.
And one thing many people agree about, is that there needs to be something done about the reserved list and the eternal formats. I personally say, leave Vintage alone. It isn't worth printing those power 9.... However, that brings us to what is worth reprinting....... The duals. Hell, if Wizards reprinted all the duals and had direct orders for 100 each they would sell out instantly.
But that isn't the point... The point is, Snow Duals today... Can WotC do it and survive? Yes.
I'm about to say something that isn't popular, but I don't care. The Reserve List is there for a reason. It stands as proof of honesty and loyalty to us original Magic players/collectors and we have been through a rough time watching other companies collapse one after another. The Reserve List should stay intact. It isn't worth it to get rid of the entire list and decide to reprint the cards wholesale. One, it will never work out the way we'd want. Two, it would royally piss off the collectors and vintage/legacy players. Personally, I believe certain cards should be reprinted. But if they can't, doing it in the form of snow duals or a legendary candelabra would work just fine to me. The question is how and where such cards could be safely inserted? If they were like the masterpieces, you'd see a high amount of product opened, oversaturation of the market, and a possible collapse because people will be hurt when they go through cases just to find one snow dual. It's unfeasible at the least, and the death knell of MtG at the worst.
It could be totally new product, printed in places like the commander sets, conspiracy sets, or as completely new cards in something like Eternal Masters. Sales would skyrocket and even the playing field without having to touch modern or standard. As it is, MaRo's questions about snow duals are rhetorical. They will never see play in a standard format.
The fact that there is a special symbol to signify that only the mana produced from snow permanents can be used to activate an ability shows that you are wrong, regardless of what you and the document claims.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Another possibility (probably the most probable one) is visiting a new plane with a new supplemental product like Fiora with Conspiracy. If a new "format" is created (like draft-matters with Conspiracy) with a new snow-themed plane, then it's very possible that, instead of having Conspiracy in summer, we'll probably go to a new plane - maybe viking in theme - and this would be the way to get these snow duals. Then, once that happens, you'd probably have another chance to be able to get them in an Eternal Masters release like most legends from Conspiracy and Dack Fayden.
I honestly see no problem in reprinting dual lands as snow-covered. Most legacy decks don't run full playsets of any dual land. This would make it very accessible to play legacy. Also, commander players can have better mana bases.
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You realize you just stated that the WOTC-official document claims something different from what you are claiming, yes? By doing so, you are admitting that you and WOTC differ on this point. A point about the WOTC game rules and game itself. The game that WOTC owns, controls, defines, legitimizes, etc. It's like arguing with parents about the name of their child. "No, you didn't name your child Sandy. Her name is Sam. It doesn't matter what your official birth certificate shows."
But, with that, I am out. I can see that you won't change your opinion regardless of the facts presented to you, and that's your prerogative.
With the way that the talk is going in this thread, why not just print snow-City of Brasses (about 5 different names ones would do) and remove the loss of life that occurs? Because every (new) non-monocolored deck would run them and they'd be better to run than basic lands (I mean 20 of these in a non EDH deck? That solves the brunt of my problems in my 20 some decks). Everyone assumes a functional (yes, Shut the F*** up I read this thread I know your opinions and the opposition) reprints of the original duals as snows.
ITS NOT HAPPENING. Mark Rosewater was talking about different limitations for them. If he prints Snow-Tiaga, I'm going to preorder the Black Lotus that doesn't need to be sacrificed that WILL OBVIOUSLY BE RELEASED in THAT SAME SET.
Some gems who people who didn't read the twitter thread:
-The immediate resounding "no, most people don't use a playset [of an original dual] anyway"
-"Legacy is tight on resources" as to the shockland route
-"The land base is the only thing keeping people out of legacy" MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAH HAAHAHAHAHA WHOOOHHOHOOHOOOO!
You guys can argue rulings and reserve list legalities for ten more pages, I'm sure I'm not the only one enjoying it.
And conversely, it stands as an example of what NOT to do: put some other considerations above the health and longevity of the game. Wizards' business model relies on selling sealed product. To deliberately limit themselves, for the benefit of a very, very tiny fraction of the total number of players, is immeasurably stupid. Not only does it cut off all profit from potential reprints of those cards, it funnels wealth into the hands of resellers and generally makes more players unhappy with the system than are happy with it. Yes, hardcore Legacy players want to keep the RL. Meanwhile, kitchen table players don't care and EDh (a very large and still growing format) would REALLY like these cards to be available. The current system considers a 2-decade old promise made to a few thousand players to be more important than the current, ongoing availability of cards to the millions who would be willing to buy them.
The Reserve list should go. In strictly dollars and cents, it's ABSOLUTELY worth it to WotC to tell all the resellers "It's our IP, we can print whatever we want, and selling sealed product and maintaining a large, active playerbase is our primary goal." One, you're right, they'd never print ENOUGH to tank the prices of cards (The playerbase has grown so much, that Chronicles would be a "limited print run" at today's normal print run sizes), and two, Collectors? no. Speculators? yes, but speculators are parasites who are trying to simply extract value. Also, would it really piss you off, knowing that you could actually find Legacy games at your LGS? Knowing that you still have a deck full of original printings that will make people jealous? If you're really serious about playing Legacy, how oes having a larger number of opponents hurt you?
It's been 21(?) years since Chronicles and Homelands, both of which were massively overprinted. Since then, have they massively overprinted any black-border set? Enough to tank the prices of every card in it like we saw with Chronicles and Homelands? Wizards really isn't stupid. They generally have a good idea of how much of a product they can sell, and likely what the effect it will have on prices, even if they never actually discuss it. Tanking the prices, making $500 cards into 50-cent bulk, is astronomically unlikely unless they deliberately try to do it by overprinting on a scale that, honestly, means printing more of each reprint than there are of any given Rare in Standard. That's what it took to drop Khans fetches, to drop Thoughtseize, to drop Mutavault: that level of reprinting. And even for those, they dropped in value, but none of them completely lost all value, and the original printings held value a lot better than the reprints.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
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BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Currently Playing:
Retired
The only thing to be glad about here is that MaRo, who has some weight I guess, started the discussion, meaning there might be a chance they print simili-Duals soon (late 2017, 2018 ?). He may be interested in getting feedback from the Legacy+ community. BUT, don't get it wrong. If Duals get printed, the main purpose will be "playability --> money", meaning an attractive product in the casual sphere, where the majority of players buy pre-built decks, packs and boosters. The Legacy community will only be a collateral beneficiary, the same way it's affected by Conspiracy and Commander products.
The only thing the Magic community can do to accelerate / put in Wizards' minds such printings is to talk about it, write articles, support anything that deals with it. Otherwise, they'll focus on the thousand things they already planned and think is more priority.
Snow Land - Island, Swamp (M)
T: Add U or B to your mana pool.
T: Add S to your mana pool.
There, skated right around the RL policy. lol
S isn't a type of mana you can produce, it's a cost you can pay with any mana from a Snow permanent.
Sorta like how 3 is a cost you can pay with any 3 mana but is 3 colorless mana.
That's actually a pretty elegant solution. I know spikes don't like it, but it would nicely split the difference.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
Maro asked on his Twitter chat what people thought of the idea of snow-covered duals.
WOTC won't ever do that, it's simply not worth fighting breach of contract lawsuits one after another. They have repeatedly stated that the Reserved List was their biggest mistake, but that they will still honor it.
Abolishing the Reserved List would make Legacy
moreaffordable and they know it, they know reprints would fly off the shelves, and yet they have never even so much as hinted at the slightest possibility of it happening, which means that they are either:A) Really stupid when it comes down to business so they would NOT print a guaranteed massive seller just because.
B) Not willing to risk fighting the legal fallout of investors seeing their collections lose value, even if that is still debatable, just look at how much an Alpha Shivan Dragon can cost versus the 0,30€ worth later printings of a card that sees zero competitive play.
I think the answer is obvious.
On the other hand, snow duals sound...wait for it, cool. With the support snow is getting in MH, I wouldn't be surprised if the next plane we visit in Standard is a snow-based one.
WotC could remove the reserved list tomorrow if they so desired. It is policy, policies change. They wouldn't be able to reprint cards from it for one full production cycle to avoid lawsuits, but as all policies, they can remove or change it at their discretion, and the people who champion that it should remain (most of which don't even play the game, and haven't since prior to Ice Age) can't do anything about it but cry.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.