So at brunch I was thinking about cards that could be put into a planeswalker-themed set, and one of them was a card (or cards) that stopped planeswalkers from being planeswalkers. Or, "Gideon-ize" them--turning planeswalkers into creatures that lose their abilities and get a base power and toughness equal to their CMC for example, either until end of turn or ongoing until they leave the battlefield.
Do you think we'll see cards like that? IT would make sense in a set heavily influenced by planeswalker dynamics. Might be a way to neutralize their impact at the same time.
EDIT: Also a good way to showcase flavour-wise the PWs who "lose their spark" by making them ordinary mages.
I think we are going to get a few anti-planeswalker cards, but they'll deal with them in a more "permanent" way that turning them into creatures. Remember, a planeswalker that loses all its loyalty counters is removed from the battlefield as a state based effect, which is why the ones that turn into creatures temporarily have the "until end of turn, it can't lose loyalty counters." clause.
I am thinking black will either get a reprint of Vampire Hexmage or a new instant or sorcery that will deal with planeswalkers by killing them. White will likely get an enchantment that can exile a planeswalker in a similar vein to Journey to Nowhere does with creatures. Red has direct damage and blue bounce/counter spells, leaving only green, which deals with them the old fashioned way, but beating them until they stop moving.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
The problem is that a card that turns an opponent's planeswalker into a creature is not just an incredibly narrow removal card, it's also card disadvantage for you. Even at 1CC I would never want to play a card that did only that instead of just playing some actual permanent removal. So it would have to come with significant upside on top.
Standard has plenty of anti-Planeswalker cards already. The upcoming set will have a few sure but I don't expect a high amount of Planeswalker hate. Firstly Planeswalker can be destroyed traditionally with attacks damage and secondly they never put to much hate to the recent core mechanics of a set. Aggro and tempo decks are strong at the moment.
The big hate cards are more likely in the following sets if planeswalkers should be problematic for standard. I think in War we there will be a destroy planeswalker/creature card most likely as story plot card with the image of a dying known character. Maybe as rare and standard playable (2cc sorcery, 3cc instant (pushed) or 2cc instant and some additional cost). And some average cards for limited like a 5-6cc instant/sorcery that could destroy a planeswalker. A new O-Ring variant. Maybe a new enchantment that reduce the loyalty counter from entering planeswalker by 1 and stuff like that. I think this set will have far more support cards than hate.
1.I think we'll get Hero's Downfall or a similar variant (or maybe a Faith's Fetters reprint). Aether Snap is another possibility that would rock.
2. I think we will finally see the text "counter target creature or planeswalker spell" in blue. Seriously, that hasn't been done yet.
3. The most "exciting"/Flashy planeswalker hate I could imagine is a Humilty effect for planeswalkers.
Maybe something like
Quench Sparks
Enchantment (R)
All planeswalkers are 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities (they don't lose loyalty counters while they're not planeswalkers).
So at brunch I was thinking about cards that could be put into a planeswalker-themed set, and one of them was a card (or cards) that stopped planeswalkers from being planeswalkers. Or, "Gideon-ize" them--turning planeswalkers into creatures that lose their abilities and get a base power and toughness equal to their CMC for example, either until end of turn or ongoing until they leave the battlefield.
Changing card types is something they are more and more reluctant to do in design. It brings up the dreaded layers rules space and generally cause unforeseen confusion. Consider the Theros gods were considered failures by R&D because it was too prone to confusing players, and those weren’t honestly that complicated. But you end up getting weird interactions that players don’t expect.
For example, some player will think they’re clever turning a Planeswalker into a Creature and then casting Deep Freeze or Capture Sphere on it. This will lead to feel bad moments. Not to mention the debates players will get into when Deep Freeze removes all its abilities.
1.I think we'll get Hero's Downfall or a similar variant (or maybe a Faith's Fetters reprint). Aether Snap is another possibility that would rock.
2. I think we will finally see the text "counter target creature or planeswalker spell" in blue. Seriously, that hasn't been done yet.
3. The most "exciting"/Flashy planeswalker hate I could imagine is a Humilty effect for planeswalkers.
Maybe something like
Quench Sparks
Enchantment (R)
All planeswalkers are 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities (they don't lose loyalty counters while they're not planeswalkers).
But will turn walkers into creatures and it’s opponents only the reason is bolas probably has a loop hole so he will still have his powers when the sun is turn on
Green: "Destroy target noncreature permanent" variant
Red: Direct damage
White: O-Rings
Black: "Destroy target creature or planeswalker.", counter removal
Blue is the odd one. It would have counterspells, obviously, but you could also count "can't be blocked" as anti-planeswalker tech. And while we haven't seen it in a while, blue does share counter removal with black.
There could also be a Pithing Needle reprint if they wanted to be evil.
You could also have something like
Absorb Spark2WW
Enchantments
Each planeswalker is a creature with base power and toughness equal to its converted mana cost and no loyalty abilities.
A dragon becomes a god. Heroes become nothing.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
There will be a lot of PW hate cards especially rare stuff... The set is designed to be a optimal play experience in draft.
Why should that influence draft? Specific rares are unlikely to get in a draft. I think that there will be some hate card for sure but in the uncommon slots. Most color already have mechanics that work good against planeswalker. Like counter spell, flying, bouncing, O-Ring effects, damage to any target/planeswalker, trample, fight effects, straight destruction or even exiling. Nothing special because these effects are common in sets nowadays and only have to be able to target planeswalker. At uncommon they will be more expensive but perfectly usable in limited.
Sure there will be some hate cards in higher rarity but there aren't draft relevant. In addition we are talking about a card type that can be destroyed by creatures attacking. The creature density in limited is high. We don't know how relevant the uncommon/rare planeswalker will be. I am sure that they don't need an immediate answer.
I can see some hate cards story wise because is a planeswalker war. They already said that some walkers will die -> Destroy effect. The Walkers are under the influence of a strong artifact that prevent them from walking. Bolas has some aces and use them. etc...
I still believe that this set will open the door to better planeswalker support cards.
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Do you think we'll see cards like that? IT would make sense in a set heavily influenced by planeswalker dynamics. Might be a way to neutralize their impact at the same time.
EDIT: Also a good way to showcase flavour-wise the PWs who "lose their spark" by making them ordinary mages.
Ideas? Thoughts?
'buster
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Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
I am thinking black will either get a reprint of Vampire Hexmage or a new instant or sorcery that will deal with planeswalkers by killing them. White will likely get an enchantment that can exile a planeswalker in a similar vein to Journey to Nowhere does with creatures. Red has direct damage and blue bounce/counter spells, leaving only green, which deals with them the old fashioned way, but beating them until they stop moving.
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Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I think Hero's Downfall Will be reprint and probably be a story light spotlight of a particual walker death
Probably dreadbore as well but bedevil probably got that handled
But we can also get remove counters from permanents
Like Aether snap, hex parasite, vampire hexmage and thief of blood
That’s probably what they will focus on so they can deal with other types of counters
The big hate cards are more likely in the following sets if planeswalkers should be problematic for standard. I think in War we there will be a destroy planeswalker/creature card most likely as story plot card with the image of a dying known character. Maybe as rare and standard playable (2cc sorcery, 3cc instant (pushed) or 2cc instant and some additional cost). And some average cards for limited like a 5-6cc instant/sorcery that could destroy a planeswalker. A new O-Ring variant. Maybe a new enchantment that reduce the loyalty counter from entering planeswalker by 1 and stuff like that. I think this set will have far more support cards than hate.
In Standard there is:
Bedevil
Plaguecrafter
The Eldest Reborn
The Immortal Sun
Thrash//Threat
Vraska's Contempt
Yawgmoth's Vile Offering
Assassin's Trophy
There are many red damage cards that can target planeswalker
Banefire
Electrodominance
Lightning Strike
Shock
O-Ring effects
Conclave Tribunal
Deputy of Detention
Hieromancer's Cage
Ixalan's Binding
Blue stuff like Bounce (I will not count counters)
Blink of an Eye
Disperse
Expel from Orazca
Perilous Voyage
Mass Manipulation
Planeswalker with abilities against Planeswalkers:
Vraska, Golgari Queen
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Not counting card that can "accidentally" hit planeswalker for little damage like Goblin Chainwhirler or some enrage dinos, rakdos cards etc.
1.I think we'll get Hero's Downfall or a similar variant (or maybe a Faith's Fetters reprint). Aether Snap is another possibility that would rock.
2. I think we will finally see the text "counter target creature or planeswalker spell" in blue. Seriously, that hasn't been done yet.
3. The most "exciting"/Flashy planeswalker hate I could imagine is a Humilty effect for planeswalkers.
Maybe something like
Quench Sparks
Enchantment (R)
All planeswalkers are 1/1 creatures and lose all abilities (they don't lose loyalty counters while they're not planeswalkers).
Changing card types is something they are more and more reluctant to do in design. It brings up the dreaded layers rules space and generally cause unforeseen confusion. Consider the Theros gods were considered failures by R&D because it was too prone to confusing players, and those weren’t honestly that complicated. But you end up getting weird interactions that players don’t expect.
For example, some player will think they’re clever turning a Planeswalker into a Creature and then casting Deep Freeze or Capture Sphere on it. This will lead to feel bad moments. Not to mention the debates players will get into when Deep Freeze removes all its abilities.
humility didn’t think of that
I think it will be more closer to Overwhelming Splendor
But will turn walkers into creatures and it’s opponents only the reason is bolas probably has a loop hole so he will still have his powers when the sun is turn on
Red: Direct damage
White: O-Rings
Black: "Destroy target creature or planeswalker.", counter removal
Blue is the odd one. It would have counterspells, obviously, but you could also count "can't be blocked" as anti-planeswalker tech. And while we haven't seen it in a while, blue does share counter removal with black.
There could also be a Pithing Needle reprint if they wanted to be evil.
You could also have something like
Absorb Spark 2WW
Enchantments
Each planeswalker is a creature with base power and toughness equal to its converted mana cost and no loyalty abilities.
A dragon becomes a god. Heroes become nothing.
On phasing:
Why should that influence draft? Specific rares are unlikely to get in a draft. I think that there will be some hate card for sure but in the uncommon slots. Most color already have mechanics that work good against planeswalker. Like counter spell, flying, bouncing, O-Ring effects, damage to any target/planeswalker, trample, fight effects, straight destruction or even exiling. Nothing special because these effects are common in sets nowadays and only have to be able to target planeswalker. At uncommon they will be more expensive but perfectly usable in limited.
Sure there will be some hate cards in higher rarity but there aren't draft relevant. In addition we are talking about a card type that can be destroyed by creatures attacking. The creature density in limited is high. We don't know how relevant the uncommon/rare planeswalker will be. I am sure that they don't need an immediate answer.
I can see some hate cards story wise because is a planeswalker war. They already said that some walkers will die -> Destroy effect. The Walkers are under the influence of a strong artifact that prevent them from walking. Bolas has some aces and use them. etc...
I still believe that this set will open the door to better planeswalker support cards.