Years ago, cards from the Portal Sets and Starter sets were not legal in the Eternal formats Vintage and Legacy, but that changed around the early 00's. Could we see a similar occurrence here when Modern Horizons hits? Has there been any official statement to say that this will not happen?
That is not going to happen, because that means that every card ever printed in the commander decks would become modern legal, and some of those are quite broken (such as True-Name Nemesis).
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I'm playing commander where only cards printed with modern border are legal... it can still be broken as **** so i don't it will ever happen
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
How would this apply to cards that received modern-frame printings in online sets? Dual lands and power were printed in Vintage Masters, would you want those to be added to Modern's card pool?
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Would it be wrong to ban a bunch of the cards already identified in this thread as problematic? Just because True-Name Nemesis has protection from just about everything, doesn't mean it has protection from being banned.
How would this apply to cards that received modern-frame printings in online sets? Dual lands and power were printed in Vintage Masters, would you want those to be added to Modern's card pool?
(These questions are all rhetorical, by the way - I'm thoroughly convinced that such a decision would have terrible repercussions)
This would apply to paper printings only. Also, some of the cards you listed are reserved list cards that were reprinted under a loophole. They would effectively be un-set level cards (silver boarder), and unplayable. This is because they shouldn't have been allowed to be reprinted under currently interpretations of the RL.
Would it be wrong to ban a bunch of the cards already identified in this thread as problematic? Just because True-Name Nemesis has protection from just about everything, doesn't mean it has protection from being banned.
How would this apply to cards that received modern-frame printings in online sets? Dual lands and power were printed in Vintage Masters, would you want those to be added to Modern's card pool?
(These questions are all rhetorical, by the way - I'm thoroughly convinced that such a decision would have terrible repercussions)
This would apply to paper printings only. Also, some of the cards you listed are reserved list cards that were reprinted under a loophole. They would effectively be un-set level cards (silver boarder), and unplayable. This is because they shouldn't have been allowed to be reprinted under currently interpretations of the RL.
First, that seems arbitrary and irrelevant as the policy at the time they were printed allowed them to be printed. Are you suggesting that anything that wouldn't be printed now (for whatever reason) would not be allowed?
Second, this opens up the format to a lot of cards that are questionable at best. While some cards are not insanely overpowered (though others are), they can potentially push many different different strategies to broken status. Looking through about 800+ cards (and this isn't even all of them that would be included in your hypothetical scenario), here are the ones that seem the most concerning:
Some, like Sinkhole, may not actually be that bad but I included them here just to give an idea of some of the cards that would be included. Things like Berkerk and Invigorate power up Infect to a pretty big degree. Natural Order can be a turn 3 Progenitus. Price of Progress and Fireblast could push Burn up to an intolerable level. Armageddon and Winter Orb are miserable to play against. Channel is banned in every format it can be banned in. Cabal Therapy might not be bad, but it is on the line. Same with Coffers. Entomb + Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume can push Reanimation strategies, such as those with Griselbrand, pretty high. And they are not limited to Legendary creatures so even getting back something like Inkwell Leviathan can be devastating.
And, of course, the fast mana. Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal are way too good. Lotus Petal is probably on the fence since Simian Spirit Guide exists but being able to go into any deck is troubling.
I even left some off this list (like Memory Jar) because of your weird condition about reserve list cards.
Again, I am not saying all of these are necessarily problematic and some may find their way to Modern eventually if Modern Horizons becomes a regular thing. But, there is no way that a change like this isn't accompanied by huge swaths of bans along with a massive upheaval in the metagame. Introducing new cards is fine; completely overhauling the format overnight is not.
Would it be wrong to ban a bunch of the cards already identified in this thread as problematic? Just because True-Name Nemesis has protection from just about everything, doesn't mean it has protection from being banned.
How would this apply to cards that received modern-frame printings in online sets? Dual lands and power were printed in Vintage Masters, would you want those to be added to Modern's card pool?
(These questions are all rhetorical, by the way - I'm thoroughly convinced that such a decision would have terrible repercussions)
This would apply to paper printings only. Also, some of the cards you listed are reserved list cards that were reprinted under a loophole. They would effectively be un-set level cards (silver boarder), and unplayable. This is because they shouldn't have been allowed to be reprinted under currently interpretations of the RL.
First, that seems arbitrary and irrelevant as the policy at the time they were printed allowed them to be printed. Are you suggesting that anything that wouldn't be printed now (for whatever reason) would not be allowed?
Second, this opens up the format to a lot of cards that are questionable at best. While some cards are not insanely overpowered (though others are), they can potentially push many different different strategies to broken status. Looking through about 800+ cards (and this isn't even all of them that would be included in your hypothetical scenario), here are the ones that seem the most concerning:
Some, like Sinkhole, may not actually be that bad but I included them here just to give an idea of some of the cards that would be included. Things like Berkerk and Invigorate power up Infect to a pretty big degree. Natural Order can be a turn 3 Progenitus. Price of Progress and Fireblast could push Burn up to an intolerable level. Armageddon and Winter Orb are miserable to play against. Channel is banned in every format it can be banned in. Cabal Therapy might not be bad, but it is on the line. Same with Coffers. Entomb + Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume can push Reanimation strategies, such as those with Griselbrand, pretty high. And they are not limited to Legendary creatures so even getting back something like Inkwell Leviathan can be devastating.
And, of course, the fast mana. Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal are way too good. Lotus Petal is probably on the fence since Simian Spirit Guide exists but being able to go into any deck is troubling.
I even left some off this list (like Memory Jar) because of your weird condition about reserve list cards.
Again, I am not saying all of these are necessarily problematic and some may find their way to Modern eventually if Modern Horizons becomes a regular thing. But, there is no way that a change like this isn't accompanied by huge swaths of bans along with a massive upheaval in the metagame. Introducing new cards is fine; completely overhauling the format overnight is not.
My point about reserved list cards, is that they were reprinted via a loophole, and by today's standards, those reprints are considered a mistake. It's not weird for current policy to align with a new potential policy. IE, they are not eligible for being reprinted today, so they would not be eligible for Modern legality.
Also, a number of the cards you listed are only reprinted in specialty sets like FTV, judge foils or as lottery cards. These specialty, limited run cards should also not be considered.
Anything that falls through the cracks from there, that is too powerful for Modern, just ban it.
Your title of this thread is literally "Making all Modern frame cards Modern legal?". At this point, you keep moving back the goalposts on what you mean by "all" simply because it had been pointed out that this is a terrible idea. Which suggests that your thread thesis is not what you want. You want very specific cards to be modern legal.
Which, all in all, is fine. We now have precedence for things entering modern by bypassing standard. Just phrase your topic that way, and list the specific cards you want, and discuss those individual cards in their own merits rather than trying to suggest that they would get included as part of some overarching change.
As of right now, the answer to your question is a resounding "no" and there really isn't any need to continue the conversation along that path.
What would the point be?
1: To make modern a better format?
I don't see how this improves modern in any way, many of the cards being added are horribly broken and would need to be banned, making the modern ban list HUGE and over complicating the format as a result.
2: To make it easier to tell if a card is modern legal (you can look at the card and know if it is a modern frame it is legal)?
The number of banned cards in the added pool is so large that it more then offsets the gains here and makes things more confusing you need to look up the restricted list and the ban list and you still need to look up original printings of older cards.
3: I want to play Reins of Power in Modern!
Then wish it would be reprinted in Modern Horizons 2, but I for one would rather not play against those cards and don't want to see a ban list a mile long.
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(U/B) is :symbu: or :symub: and the same is true for the other 9 hybrid symbols with their two colors in for the last 2 leters of the code. ((2/B) and co are :sym2b:)
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B) T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
How about cards that were given modern-frame promo versions? Survival of the Fittest, Yawgmoth's Will, Natural Order, Force of Will, Mana Crypt, etc.?
(These questions are all rhetorical, by the way - I'm thoroughly convinced that such a decision would have terrible repercussions)
This would apply to paper printings only. Also, some of the cards you listed are reserved list cards that were reprinted under a loophole. They would effectively be un-set level cards (silver boarder), and unplayable. This is because they shouldn't have been allowed to be reprinted under currently interpretations of the RL.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Second, this opens up the format to a lot of cards that are questionable at best. While some cards are not insanely overpowered (though others are), they can potentially push many different different strategies to broken status. Looking through about 800+ cards (and this isn't even all of them that would be included in your hypothetical scenario), here are the ones that seem the most concerning:
Some, like Sinkhole, may not actually be that bad but I included them here just to give an idea of some of the cards that would be included. Things like Berkerk and Invigorate power up Infect to a pretty big degree. Natural Order can be a turn 3 Progenitus. Price of Progress and Fireblast could push Burn up to an intolerable level. Armageddon and Winter Orb are miserable to play against. Channel is banned in every format it can be banned in. Cabal Therapy might not be bad, but it is on the line. Same with Coffers. Entomb + Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume can push Reanimation strategies, such as those with Griselbrand, pretty high. And they are not limited to Legendary creatures so even getting back something like Inkwell Leviathan can be devastating.
And, of course, the fast mana. Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal are way too good. Lotus Petal is probably on the fence since Simian Spirit Guide exists but being able to go into any deck is troubling.
I even left some off this list (like Memory Jar) because of your weird condition about reserve list cards.
Again, I am not saying all of these are necessarily problematic and some may find their way to Modern eventually if Modern Horizons becomes a regular thing. But, there is no way that a change like this isn't accompanied by huge swaths of bans along with a massive upheaval in the metagame. Introducing new cards is fine; completely overhauling the format overnight is not.
My point about reserved list cards, is that they were reprinted via a loophole, and by today's standards, those reprints are considered a mistake. It's not weird for current policy to align with a new potential policy. IE, they are not eligible for being reprinted today, so they would not be eligible for Modern legality.
Also, a number of the cards you listed are only reprinted in specialty sets like FTV, judge foils or as lottery cards. These specialty, limited run cards should also not be considered.
Anything that falls through the cracks from there, that is too powerful for Modern, just ban it.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Which, all in all, is fine. We now have precedence for things entering modern by bypassing standard. Just phrase your topic that way, and list the specific cards you want, and discuss those individual cards in their own merits rather than trying to suggest that they would get included as part of some overarching change.
As of right now, the answer to your question is a resounding "no" and there really isn't any need to continue the conversation along that path.
1: To make modern a better format?
I don't see how this improves modern in any way, many of the cards being added are horribly broken and would need to be banned, making the modern ban list HUGE and over complicating the format as a result.
2: To make it easier to tell if a card is modern legal (you can look at the card and know if it is a modern frame it is legal)?
The number of banned cards in the added pool is so large that it more then offsets the gains here and makes things more confusing you need to look up the restricted list and the ban list and you still need to look up original printings of older cards.
3: I want to play Reins of Power in Modern!
Then wish it would be reprinted in Modern Horizons 2, but I for one would rather not play against those cards and don't want to see a ban list a mile long.
Alternatively {UB} or {2B} in [mana] tags are (U/B) or (2/B)
T is :symtap: and T will give T in [mana] tags