I was drafting last night but in between rounds I like to wander and observe some of the standard going on. While watching a match, noticed a rules error that might have heavily affected the outcome (pairings were posted shortly after the error so I didn't see who wound up winning).
Should I have interjected and corrected the error? I didn't want to stick my nose where it didn't belong so I didn't say anything. What is the generally accepted etiquette in this and similar situations?
The best thing to do is notify a Judge and let them know what happened. Also try to make sure that you're correct before you call the Judge.
That being said, I personally let them play their match. I never interject; just something that I kept with me from the "old school" of playing. Some here may flame me, but I'm not a rules lawyer.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
At fnm you dont have to call a judge you can just tell then yourselves why thats wrong. If they dont believe you or want to make sure they can call a judge.
Fnm isnt supposed to be a high stakes tourny. Its a casual event on fridays where people can practice, learn, and havefun. Thought you should still follow the rules ajd help other people do so.
Maybe it's different somewhere else, but at my game shop there is no question that if someone notices an illegal play they would immediately inform the players. If it's the result of a misreading of the cards or of the rules in general (which it usually is), those players are grateful for gaining an increased understanding. For instance, I once pointed out that Rescue from the Underworld doesn't trigger Heroic because the sacrificed creature isn't targeted, which neither player had realized.
That said, do try to make sure you're actually pointing out a real problem. It sounds like you had no doubt whatsoever in this instance, but if you're not sure (and they're not running out of time), then you can usually ask, "Hey, how'd you do [thing that doesn't look right to you]?" That way you don't come off as an amateur judge that nobody asked for, and if the play/game state wasn't actually illegal then you've learned something new and interesting.
At fnm you dont have to call a judge you can just tell then yourselves why thats wrong. If they dont believe you or want to make sure they can call a judge.
Fnm isnt supposed to be a high stakes tourny. Its a casual event on fridays where people can practice, learn, and havefun. Thought you should still follow the rules ajd help other people do so.
This is wrong. Even at FNM, spectators are not permitted to fix problems themselves. The spectator could be incorrect themselves; that's why the procedure is for the spectator to ask players to pause the game and call a judge to make the correction.
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Pretty sure I'm correct about this but just to make sure: Player 1 has a Precinct Captain and a Spear of Heliod. Player 2 has a Pack Rat and two token copies. Player 1 attacks with the Captain. Player 2 double blocks with the tokens. Captain's first strike kills a rat. Then they had the second rat kill the captain as a 3/3 when in fact the captain should have survived because the second rat is now a 2/2.
This is wrong. Even at FNM, spectators are not permitted to fix problems themselves. The spectator could be incorrect themselves; that's why the procedure is for the spectator to ask players to pause the game and call a judge to make the correction.
Not every store has a judge available for FNMs. At my LGS, we usually are fine with pointing out rules errors. If the players don't want to rely on someone they don't know's knowledge then someone usually can look up the ruling on their smartphone.
Pretty sure I'm correct about this but just to make sure: Player 1 has a Precinct Captain and a Spear of Heliod. Player 2 has a Pack Rat and two token copies. Player 1 attacks with the Captain. Player 2 double blocks with the tokens. Captain's first strike kills a rat. Then they had the second rat kill the captain as a 3/3 when in fact the captain should have survived because the second rat is now a 2/2.
Pretty sure I'm correct about this but just to make sure: Player 1 has a Precinct Captain and a Spear of Heliod. Player 2 has a Pack Rat and two token copies. Player 1 attacks with the Captain. Player 2 double blocks with the tokens. Captain's first strike kills a rat. Then they had the second rat kill the captain as a 3/3 when in fact the captain should have survived because the second rat is now a 2/2.
You are correct.
As for what to actually do about it, if the players simply played this out without comment right in front of you, then a quick, "Yo, don't forget the rat shrinks" when Player 1 starts putting the Captain into the graveyard will remind them without being obtrusive. There's no issue with whether the players require a judge to correct an illegal game state, because you've stopped the illegal game state from ever happening.
If Player 2 were to challenge you, then you merely suggest that they call a judge -- Player 1 will almost certainly do so, as she would presumably prefer to keep her Precinct Captain. Judge comes over, rules correctly, everything continues smoothly.
The only thing that would be inappropriately inserting yourself into another game would be if you pointed out that a double-block with rats is a bad deal for Player 2 immediately after they declare blockers, because then you're being presumptuous and commenting on an ongoing game as it's being played. But you obviously aren't talking about anything like that.
Not every store has a judge available for FNMs. At my LGS, we usually are fine with pointing out rules errors. If the players don't want to rely on someone they don't know's knowledge then someone usually can look up the ruling on their smartphone.
It also depends on the atmosphere of the FNM. Some FNMs are relatively competitive, with a high number of players all bringing tier one decks and playing with the intent of winning prizes. Some FNMs are relatively casual, with a high number of players all bringing casual decks, with fun being the goal more so than prizes. The "spectators pointing out and fixing errors" (or its close cousin, "ask an experienced player rather than an official judge who may not even be present") is more suited to the latter, since while it's obviously not within the letter of the law, it takes into account the fact that there might not even be a judge present and that the TO might not be particularly knowledgeable about Magic either.
Not every store has a judge available for FNMs. At my LGS, we usually are fine with pointing out rules errors. If the players don't want to rely on someone they don't know's knowledge then someone usually can look up the ruling on their smartphone.
Along those lines, is there an app for MTG rulings on the iPhone for individual cards? Or at least an app for broad rulings according to the MTG rulebook in plain English? Or is there a site that you can use?
I believe that the TO can actually nominate someone to be the "judge" for the night even if they aren't actually a levelled judge. Back when we first sanctioned our draft group, we didn't have a judge, so I was appointed the de-facto judge because the TO had only played MTG for about 6 months where I'd played for 3 years, passed rules advisor and tried to keep up with the ruling forum.
I've been known to handle a few informal rules questions, myself. My rules knowledge is on par with an L2. I'm just too lazy to get judge certified. I don't do much at the FNM level since, obviously, I'm not a certified judge, but hey.
Along those lines, is there an app for MTG rulings on the iPhone for individual cards? Or at least an app for broad rulings according to the MTG rulebook in plain English? Or is there a site that you can use?
Gatherer has a list of commonly used rulings if you need that. Otherwise, there's the option of searching the Rulings forum on here (or even just Googling it, which amusingly tends to produce a Rulings forum thread as the first result).
I'm in a similar place. I wouldn't quite put myself at level 2, but I could get there without too much effort. Main limitation for me is that I'm out of work, so my travelling funds are really limited and I just don't have the time to travel to enough events to get certified in a reasonable amount of time (regular hospital visits and a scar on my knee the size of a golf ball are an eternal reminder to watch for ambulances when waiting to cross the road. They'll get you even when you're on the pavement). But for my local draft group, most of the time I'm final arbiter on rules (the exception being when our L2 mate is back from uni),
Claiming to know as much as an L2 doesn't mean much and is quite an unfair claim. It makes it seem that L1 or L0 (Rules Advisers ) are inferior in knowledge. Your level of Judge has very little to do with your knowledge of the game. If you can pass your RA exam without cheating, then you can pass the rest with ease. The difficult part is meeting the OTHER requirements (finding an L2 within a drive-able distance, etc.) and so on.
I had to drive out of state to find an L2 to get me to where I am and have to drive even further to become an L2. It gets to the point where I may not pursue it as I only did to begin with to assist my LGS as best as I possibly can.
I was drafting last night but in between rounds I like to wander and observe some of the standard going on. While watching a match, noticed a rules error that might have heavily affected the outcome (pairings were posted shortly after the error so I didn't see who wound up winning).
Should I have interjected and corrected the error? I didn't want to stick my nose where it didn't belong so I didn't say anything. What is the generally accepted etiquette in this and similar situations?
Although some communities are okay with spectators assisting (like my LGS), it is not appropriate. It can come off as rude, especially if the other person believes you are friends with their opponent and are assisting them. I know if feels like a lot of extra effort to call over the Judge or TO, but if you witness a mistake it's best to get it fixed. This way both players learn a little bit. Odds are they didn't know that First Strike has it's own step from normal Damage which would explain why they both thought they would trade.
If you caught it too late to make a difference or didn't bring it to a TO/Judges attention in time, inform the players after the game so that neither player makes the mistake again.
Claiming to know as much as an L2 doesn't mean much and is quite an unfair claim. It makes it seem that L1 or L0 (Rules Advisers ) are inferior in knowledge. Your level of Judge has very little to do with your knowledge of the game. If you can pass your RA exam without cheating, then you can pass the rest with ease. The difficult part is meeting the OTHER requirements (finding an L2 within a drive-able distance, etc.) and so on.
That isn't true at all. The minimum level of rules knowledge varies greatly from L1 to L2 and even more so from L2 to L3. There is a reason written exams are a requirement for each of those promotions.
L2s even need to know an entire additional document over L1s.
So while travel and experience may be your falling points, I can assure you that the average rules advisor or L1 would not be able to pass the L2 exam without additional training, and certainly not with the amount they displayed during their L1/RA exams.
To claim that the expected knowledge between them is flat is both misleading for anyone curious about advancement, and insulting to the many L1s who do unfortunately fail the L2 written exam.
Should I have interjected and corrected the error? I didn't want to stick my nose where it didn't belong so I didn't say anything. What is the generally accepted etiquette in this and similar situations?
That being said, I personally let them play their match. I never interject; just something that I kept with me from the "old school" of playing. Some here may flame me, but I'm not a rules lawyer.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Fnm isnt supposed to be a high stakes tourny. Its a casual event on fridays where people can practice, learn, and havefun. Thought you should still follow the rules ajd help other people do so.
That said, do try to make sure you're actually pointing out a real problem. It sounds like you had no doubt whatsoever in this instance, but if you're not sure (and they're not running out of time), then you can usually ask, "Hey, how'd you do [thing that doesn't look right to you]?" That way you don't come off as an amateur judge that nobody asked for, and if the play/game state wasn't actually illegal then you've learned something new and interesting.
This is wrong. Even at FNM, spectators are not permitted to fix problems themselves. The spectator could be incorrect themselves; that's why the procedure is for the spectator to ask players to pause the game and call a judge to make the correction.
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Not every store has a judge available for FNMs. At my LGS, we usually are fine with pointing out rules errors. If the players don't want to rely on someone they don't know's knowledge then someone usually can look up the ruling on their smartphone.
The captain does survive.
You are correct.
As for what to actually do about it, if the players simply played this out without comment right in front of you, then a quick, "Yo, don't forget the rat shrinks" when Player 1 starts putting the Captain into the graveyard will remind them without being obtrusive. There's no issue with whether the players require a judge to correct an illegal game state, because you've stopped the illegal game state from ever happening.
If Player 2 were to challenge you, then you merely suggest that they call a judge -- Player 1 will almost certainly do so, as she would presumably prefer to keep her Precinct Captain. Judge comes over, rules correctly, everything continues smoothly.
The only thing that would be inappropriately inserting yourself into another game would be if you pointed out that a double-block with rats is a bad deal for Player 2 immediately after they declare blockers, because then you're being presumptuous and commenting on an ongoing game as it's being played. But you obviously aren't talking about anything like that.
It also depends on the atmosphere of the FNM. Some FNMs are relatively competitive, with a high number of players all bringing tier one decks and playing with the intent of winning prizes. Some FNMs are relatively casual, with a high number of players all bringing casual decks, with fun being the goal more so than prizes. The "spectators pointing out and fixing errors" (or its close cousin, "ask an experienced player rather than an official judge who may not even be present") is more suited to the latter, since while it's obviously not within the letter of the law, it takes into account the fact that there might not even be a judge present and that the TO might not be particularly knowledgeable about Magic either.
Along those lines, is there an app for MTG rulings on the iPhone for individual cards? Or at least an app for broad rulings according to the MTG rulebook in plain English? Or is there a site that you can use?
I've been known to handle a few informal rules questions, myself. My rules knowledge is on par with an L2. I'm just too lazy to get judge certified. I don't do much at the FNM level since, obviously, I'm not a certified judge, but hey.
Gatherer has a list of commonly used rulings if you need that. Otherwise, there's the option of searching the Rulings forum on here (or even just Googling it, which amusingly tends to produce a Rulings forum thread as the first result).
Claiming to know as much as an L2 doesn't mean much and is quite an unfair claim. It makes it seem that L1 or L0 (Rules Advisers ) are inferior in knowledge. Your level of Judge has very little to do with your knowledge of the game. If you can pass your RA exam without cheating, then you can pass the rest with ease. The difficult part is meeting the OTHER requirements (finding an L2 within a drive-able distance, etc.) and so on.
I had to drive out of state to find an L2 to get me to where I am and have to drive even further to become an L2. It gets to the point where I may not pursue it as I only did to begin with to assist my LGS as best as I possibly can.
Although some communities are okay with spectators assisting (like my LGS), it is not appropriate. It can come off as rude, especially if the other person believes you are friends with their opponent and are assisting them. I know if feels like a lot of extra effort to call over the Judge or TO, but if you witness a mistake it's best to get it fixed. This way both players learn a little bit. Odds are they didn't know that First Strike has it's own step from normal Damage which would explain why they both thought they would trade.
If you caught it too late to make a difference or didn't bring it to a TO/Judges attention in time, inform the players after the game so that neither player makes the mistake again.
That isn't true at all. The minimum level of rules knowledge varies greatly from L1 to L2 and even more so from L2 to L3. There is a reason written exams are a requirement for each of those promotions.
L2s even need to know an entire additional document over L1s.
So while travel and experience may be your falling points, I can assure you that the average rules advisor or L1 would not be able to pass the L2 exam without additional training, and certainly not with the amount they displayed during their L1/RA exams.
To claim that the expected knowledge between them is flat is both misleading for anyone curious about advancement, and insulting to the many L1s who do unfortunately fail the L2 written exam.