This will just do like Tarmogoyf and fuel the demand while barely putting any into the supply.
Because of exactly what you said. That's what WOTC wants to happen - more people having an interest in the format, buying up staples (and these packs with those staples), and playing in events. That makes them mad money.
And ruins a format. Put it at Rare, it'll still invigorate things.
Which format, draft or Legacy? I presume Legacy, because FoW won't affect draft much. How does it ruin Legacy? It puts more copies into circulation (maybe not a ton more, but certainly SOME more) of a card that Legacy supporters have been clamoring for reprints for YEARS. Yes, it's a cashgrab as a mythic, but it's still there. Are you thinking that increased printings of the cards that they can print will lead to increased prices on the rest of the cards? That might happen, but that's because more people are buying into the format. If prices increase it's because people are buying cards to build decks. How is that bad?
In a format where a ton of staples can't be reprinted, it's awful to reprint one of the largest staples of the format as a mythic. This keeps the card priced artificially high. That's bad when dual lands and other staples increase in price due to rarity.
Don't force rarity on the few staples that can be reprinted. It's bad for legacy. Rare would be fine for FoW and help supply.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
First rule of spikes: Always sell right after the spike.
I'll actually have a different rule: "Always sell into the spike."
If you sell after the spike you either:
-Sell the card instantly and get the top price. (There's still demand, price will soon go up again anyway)
-The card takes a while to sell and you get less than the top price.
-Players are wary of the card and you get holding the card for a long time.
If you sell into the spike:
-You sell the card instantly and get enough money for your troubles.
It's never necessary to hunt for the last few percents of gain if you can reliably sell the cards. I've been greedy few times and it's more common to end up loosing out of a good sale than earning few dollars more. Naturally it's better if you can recognize the cards which will still be climbing, but I've found that to be pretty hit and miss. If I could identify those cards, I wouldn't have to work this hard to pay for my hobby...
But anyway, all Rv duals have spiked and Unl duals are slowly following, as some people have sold their revised copies and moved on Unlimited versions causing higher demand. Pretty soon fbb duals will also go up a bit, but that will most likely take a few weeks still. The funny reserved list card going up is Great Whale, which might just be a coincidental result from the Peregrine Drake jump, as people brew casual decks around Eldrazi Displacer.
If WotC had guts, they would ban all cards from the reserve list from tournament play, except for pure Vintage. Any other active tournament type should only allow for cards that can be reprinted. Solves loads of problems. Chases some peeps from the game sure, hopefully some speculators too, but those couple of thousand players won't be missed out of those 15 million magic players.
This would piss me off more than a reprint. I invest in the game and they ban me out? Come on, this idea of a non-reserved format makes no sense. People want to play and are begging for reprints after spending tons of money, so let's ban the cards, make them worthless, and force people to play a format they have no interest in playing.
If WotC had guts, they would ban all cards from the reserve list from tournament play, except for pure Vintage. Any other active tournament type should only allow for cards that can be reprinted. Solves loads of problems. Chases some peeps from the game sure, hopefully some speculators too, but those couple of thousand players won't be missed out of those 15 million magic players.
That's ridiculous. Legacy is a great format and is a totally different beast from Vintage. Killing Legacy would demonstrate a lack of "guts" on the part of WotC. If they really had guts, they'd reprint duals. Plus, if duals were only legal in Vintage, that would actually crash their prices (because Power is the limiting factor in Vintage) -- exactly what they're trying to avoid with the RL.
You know what WotC could do instead of banning all reserved list cards from legacy? Make a new format without the reserved list cards or just have the reserved list cards banned from the beginning of said format. You don't butcher an entire format that way and you make a new format. Crazy, I know. Also, a couple thousand/2,000 would be pissed off at legacy getting butchered? There's more than 5 times that number playing legacy if I remember correctly. You piss them all off as the people who invested $250 into a single u. sea see the price crash and lose all confidence in the secondary market, hate WotC, and likely quit the game. Tell me how any of those is in WotC's best interests.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
It DOESN'T MATTER whether FoW is rare or mythic in EMA. Hell, even if it were common I bet the dual lands would simply go up more to compensate for the tanking of FoW. WotC can't support legacy in any meaningful way without dual land reprints and those are never coming just to let you know. If that disappoints you, go and get some job that pays 6 figures a year to afford dual lands without going broke doing so. Legacy has been dying for years. This EMA set is like trying to use a bandaid instead of performing heart surgery/it isn't helping anything other than modo really.
It DOESN'T MATTER whether FoW is rare or mythic in EMA. Hell, even if it were common I bet the dual lands would simply go up more to compensate for the tanking of FoW. WotC can't support legacy in any meaningful way without dual land reprints and those are never coming just to let you know. If that disappoints you, go and get some job that pays 6 figures a year to afford dual lands without going broke doing so. Legacy has been dying for years. This EMA set is like trying to use a bandaid instead of performing heart surgery/it isn't helping anything other than modo really.
Well thanks Debbie downer. Did it ever occur to you that not every deck runs dual lands, including burn, Merfolk, high tide, DNT, Dragon Stompy, MUD, and many more? And also that some decks aren't blue and therefore have much cheaper dual lands like GW Cloudpost, Maverick, Lands, Aggro Loam, and more decks? Prices will settle down regarding dual lands and LEDs -- meanwhile eternal masters should contain the prices of many other non-reserved cards, as well as increasing the supply so they will be easier to find, especially if you pick them up right after the set comes out. No need to cry wolf yet.
Dual lands aren't the only thing going up because of this set, it's also any reserved list staple like LED or Mox Diamond. I'm sure City of Traitors is going up as well.
You know what WotC could do instead of banning all reserved list cards from legacy?
Print competition.
Example: Mana Drain used to be a necessary staple in Vintage blue decks. Now it's in competition with lots of situationally better / worse cards like Flusterstorm, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Swansong, Mental Mistep, Mindbreak Trap, etc.
You can do the same thing with other staples. Slap some new variation on it that's NOT strictly worse, or at least not much, and there you go. New possibly competitive deck. Consider these options:
Scryland A++
Forest Plains
When this enters the battlefield, each player Scrys 1.
Still-Broken Lotus
Enchantment, 0
Sac: add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. You may not use this mana to cast artifacts.
Still-Broken Ancestrall
5U
Delve
Draw three cards.
OHWAIT they actually did print that last one.
Obviously there are power-level and degeneracy concerns with all of those cards. But it's that -- the power level -- that stays Wizards' hand. Not the Reserve List.
You know what WotC could do instead of banning all reserved list cards from legacy?
Print competition.
Example: Mana Drain used to be a necessary staple in Vintage blue decks. Now it's in competition with lots of situationally better / worse cards like Flusterstorm, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Swansong, Mental Mistep, Mindbreak Trap, etc.
You can do the same thing with other staples. Slap some new variation on it that's NOT strictly worse, or at least not much, and there you go. New possibly competitive deck. Consider these options:
Scryland A++
Forest Plains
When this enters the battlefield, each player Scrys 1.
Still-Broken Lotus
Enchantment, 0
Sac: add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. You may not use this mana to cast artifacts.
Still-Broken Ancestrall
5U
Delve
Draw three cards.
OHWAIT they actually did print that last one.
Obviously there are power-level and degeneracy concerns with all of those cards. But it's that -- the power level -- that stays Wizards' hand. Not the Reserve List.
A thousand times this.
The people who want the reserve list undone I'm convinced just want what they can't have. Wizards has it within its power to print not only competition to dual lands, but the power to make single color decks more viable.
In fact they have done this. Mono color viability has grown in power from what it was. And there's no reason why wizards can't make mono colored decks stronger. Additionally, they have been printing cards which should remove the demand and need for duals. Cards like Cavern of souls which should replace some of the functional need for duals.
And wizards can keep doing this.
But in the end, people will fixate on what they can't have. It's like saying I can't play magic because Tarmogoyf.
Go take a look at the high end magic group on facebook. Every single time someone posts a high end black lotus for sale, people just cannot leave it alone.
Why? Because it affects them emotionally. Of course no one gives a crap when the card is worthless.
Guy keys Aston Martin. There's no legacy to ban, no veneer to hide behind, no arguments to be had. Just raw emotion that makes him want to key the car. Of course if you talked to him in person you would get this instead:
-there are starving children in Africa
-such an expensive car is a waste of money
That's the thing with jealousy. You know when it strikes their ire? It's when they just. cant. leave it. alone.
Wizards should not break their promise. They have so many tools at their disposal to mitigate the necessity for duals. They have been using them.
I just hope they're shrewd enough business wise to realize that.
People couldn't have epic gear in WoW, and blizzard capitulated. Then after they got what they wanted, they went up and said, you know what? WoW's not that great anyway. Epics aren't special anymore.
The moment Wizards gives in, people will realize there are more important things in life to be spending their money on than cardboard not worth anything.
They will realize this because they will stop giving a crap about duals and lotuses since they can be readily had, and they will move on to something else.
If WotC had guts, they would ban all cards from the reserve list from tournament play, except for pure Vintage. Any other active tournament type should only allow for cards that can be reprinted. Solves loads of problems. Chases some peeps from the game sure, hopefully some speculators too, but those couple of thousand players won't be missed out of those 15 million magic players.
Isn't this what they did when they created Modern. They created a format with no reserve list cards where all cards can be reprinted at any time. How did Modern fair in chasing speculators away from the game?
If WotC had guts, they would ban all cards from the reserve list from tournament play, except for pure Vintage. Any other active tournament type should only allow for cards that can be reprinted. Solves loads of problems. Chases some peeps from the game sure, hopefully some speculators too, but those couple of thousand players won't be missed out of those 15 million magic players.
Isn't this what they did when they created Modern. They created a format with no reserve list cards where all cards can be reprinted at any time. How did Modern fair in chasing speculators away from the game?
Unfortunately, Modern was a monstrous success, so demand increased. And now, even though they DO try to reprint cards, they're always a little bit behind the demand curve. Plus, as the season comes and goes, we see volatility in prices. "Volatility" sounds like "Free Money!!!!!" to lots of people -- see how many flock to bitcoin arbitage -- so there you go. Aggressive speculators seeking to ensure all prices are the maximum people will actually pay, and a player base growing faster than reprints. Whoops, WotC is making money!
Legacy will be gone in the next 5 years at this rate. I understand all of the players who have played for so long wanting to be greedy and hold onto their duel lands but unfortunately times have changed. There's more players than ever playing, and that number is growing each year. I even have my own duals and think it would be very sensible to reprint dual lands in a limited quantity set unless it's just going to turn into another vintage. Players won't be able to progress into other formats at this rate and the attendance for legacy tournaments will drop significantly. Probably just do away with the format at the rate it's declining. And no legacy isn't just for all the 20+year veterans. People who have been playing 10+ years would love to get into such an interesting but overpriced format.
I understand all of the players who have played for so long wanting to be greedy and hold onto their duel lands but unfortunately times have changed.
-- wait, what? Are you linking the death of Legacy to older players "being greedy" and wanting to keep owning the original dual lands...? I don't even --
I even have my own duals and think it would be very sensible to reprint dual lands in a limited quantity set unless it's just going to turn into another vintage.
Oh. OH. You think that people who own Duals would be up in arms if they were reprinted. I don't know what play groups you know of, but I've never seen anyone who plays the format regularly who opposes reprints. I'd be surprised if there were any examples you could point to on this or any other forum. Legacy players would be totally cool with reprints. It's not the player base that WotC is worried about; it's the SHADOWY COLLECTOR/INVESTOR CABAL that may or may not exist.
The problem with Magic isn't the reserve list, it's the speculators. It's one thing to buy an extra playset of something or to even buy multiple playsets if you are going to legitimately use them in multiple decks. (nothing worse then taking cards from one deck and having to put them in another one when the sleeves are different).
Buying up the entire product online in the hopes of making money MAY be your right as an individual, but all it really does is make people salty and make it more difficult for players to compete.
You want to pay for the hobby, go play AND win at FNM, or any other such format/tournament and trade like the rest of the minions out there.
Would have to be an anonymous poll, or better you get a vote for each year you have played magic, for each year you participate in a DCI event you get a vote...then maybe you will get 10% that don't want the list to be removed...
The solution lies in MaximumC post, I've been saying this for 10 years now...wizards has to considered eternal in set designing..
There's nothing wrong with a 10% price increase per year for staples...and I think we can live with jump between .50$ and 4$ for a old rare...the problem is the 100% jump overnight due to hoarder...
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
The problems with Legacy are symptomatic of a larger issue, one that even has a grip on Standard. That problem is the concept of MTGFinance. This unregulated stock market game has turned Magic into a cluster**** of pricing bubbles, busts, and economic turmoil. Players are actually fleeing Standard right now. Stores are having trouble firing constructed tournaments. Make no mistake, if WotC doesn't address this issue, Magic's days are numbered.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
The problems with Legacy are symptomatic of a larger issue, one that even has a grip on Standard. That problem is the concept of MTGFinance. This unregulated stock market game has turned Magic into a cluster**** of pricing bubbles, busts, and economic turmoil. Players are actually fleeing Standard right now. Stores are having trouble firing constructed tournaments. Make no mistake, if WotC doesn't address this issue, Magic's days are numbered.
Any data for this? All sources I've read indicate an increase in players at sanctioned events, not less.
The only use I can think of for this card is playing some kind of 94/95 deck that uses Berserk as a win condition, since the 4th edition copies are certainly playable and 20 cents, and Fists of the Anvil is "just better" for red/green (infect?) a lot of the time, and I don't think I've ever seen that. I think this buyout was a mistake on behalf of the buyer. And I would have defended the Mindslicer buyout to a certain dollar amount.
LOL at the people who are now spiking Legends crap cards JUST BECAUSE. Speculat'n must be getting to be a crowded game if people are starting to scrape the bottom of dem barrels.
Immolation is a better card from that era, since it can double as removal. Is that one going, next?
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In a format where a ton of staples can't be reprinted, it's awful to reprint one of the largest staples of the format as a mythic. This keeps the card priced artificially high. That's bad when dual lands and other staples increase in price due to rarity.
Don't force rarity on the few staples that can be reprinted. It's bad for legacy. Rare would be fine for FoW and help supply.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
They are sitting at $142ea right now.
First rule of spikes: Always sell right after the spike.
https://pucatrade.com/profiles/show/23875
I'll actually have a different rule: "Always sell into the spike."
If you sell after the spike you either:
-Sell the card instantly and get the top price. (There's still demand, price will soon go up again anyway)
-The card takes a while to sell and you get less than the top price.
-Players are wary of the card and you get holding the card for a long time.
If you sell into the spike:
-You sell the card instantly and get enough money for your troubles.
It's never necessary to hunt for the last few percents of gain if you can reliably sell the cards. I've been greedy few times and it's more common to end up loosing out of a good sale than earning few dollars more. Naturally it's better if you can recognize the cards which will still be climbing, but I've found that to be pretty hit and miss. If I could identify those cards, I wouldn't have to work this hard to pay for my hobby...
But anyway, all Rv duals have spiked and Unl duals are slowly following, as some people have sold their revised copies and moved on Unlimited versions causing higher demand. Pretty soon fbb duals will also go up a bit, but that will most likely take a few weeks still. The funny reserved list card going up is Great Whale, which might just be a coincidental result from the Peregrine Drake jump, as people brew casual decks around Eldrazi Displacer.
Set to default
This would piss me off more than a reprint. I invest in the game and they ban me out? Come on, this idea of a non-reserved format makes no sense. People want to play and are begging for reprints after spending tons of money, so let's ban the cards, make them worthless, and force people to play a format they have no interest in playing.
BUG Reanimator
BWG Nic-Fit
BGR Punishing Nic-Fit
That's ridiculous. Legacy is a great format and is a totally different beast from Vintage. Killing Legacy would demonstrate a lack of "guts" on the part of WotC. If they really had guts, they'd reprint duals. Plus, if duals were only legal in Vintage, that would actually crash their prices (because Power is the limiting factor in Vintage) -- exactly what they're trying to avoid with the RL.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Dual lands aren't the only thing going up because of this set, it's also any reserved list staple like LED or Mox Diamond. I'm sure City of Traitors is going up as well.
Print competition.
Example: Mana Drain used to be a necessary staple in Vintage blue decks. Now it's in competition with lots of situationally better / worse cards like Flusterstorm, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Swansong, Mental Mistep, Mindbreak Trap, etc.
You can do the same thing with other staples. Slap some new variation on it that's NOT strictly worse, or at least not much, and there you go. New possibly competitive deck. Consider these options:
Scryland A++
Forest Plains
When this enters the battlefield, each player Scrys 1.
Still-Broken Lotus
Enchantment, 0
Sac: add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. You may not use this mana to cast artifacts.
Still-Broken Ancestrall
5U
Delve
Draw three cards.
OHWAIT they actually did print that last one.
Obviously there are power-level and degeneracy concerns with all of those cards. But it's that -- the power level -- that stays Wizards' hand. Not the Reserve List.
A thousand times this.
The people who want the reserve list undone I'm convinced just want what they can't have. Wizards has it within its power to print not only competition to dual lands, but the power to make single color decks more viable.
In fact they have done this. Mono color viability has grown in power from what it was. And there's no reason why wizards can't make mono colored decks stronger. Additionally, they have been printing cards which should remove the demand and need for duals. Cards like Cavern of souls which should replace some of the functional need for duals.
And wizards can keep doing this.
But in the end, people will fixate on what they can't have. It's like saying I can't play magic because Tarmogoyf.
Go take a look at the high end magic group on facebook. Every single time someone posts a high end black lotus for sale, people just cannot leave it alone.
Why? Because it affects them emotionally. Of course no one gives a crap when the card is worthless.
It's not about rationality. it's not about Legacy dying. The core of it is raw emotion. It is this emotion right here I'm talking about.
Guy keys Aston Martin. There's no legacy to ban, no veneer to hide behind, no arguments to be had. Just raw emotion that makes him want to key the car. Of course if you talked to him in person you would get this instead:
-there are starving children in Africa
-such an expensive car is a waste of money
That's the thing with jealousy. You know when it strikes their ire? It's when they just. cant. leave it. alone.
Wizards should not break their promise. They have so many tools at their disposal to mitigate the necessity for duals. They have been using them.
I just hope they're shrewd enough business wise to realize that.
People couldn't have epic gear in WoW, and blizzard capitulated. Then after they got what they wanted, they went up and said, you know what? WoW's not that great anyway. Epics aren't special anymore.
The moment Wizards gives in, people will realize there are more important things in life to be spending their money on than cardboard not worth anything.
They will realize this because they will stop giving a crap about duals and lotuses since they can be readily had, and they will move on to something else.
Isn't this what they did when they created Modern. They created a format with no reserve list cards where all cards can be reprinted at any time. How did Modern fair in chasing speculators away from the game?
Unfortunately, Modern was a monstrous success, so demand increased. And now, even though they DO try to reprint cards, they're always a little bit behind the demand curve. Plus, as the season comes and goes, we see volatility in prices. "Volatility" sounds like "Free Money!!!!!" to lots of people -- see how many flock to bitcoin arbitage -- so there you go. Aggressive speculators seeking to ensure all prices are the maximum people will actually pay, and a player base growing faster than reprints. Whoops, WotC is making money!
Well, tournament support might decline, sure, but there will always be those die-hards who --
-- wait, what? Are you linking the death of Legacy to older players "being greedy" and wanting to keep owning the original dual lands...? I don't even --
Oh. OH. You think that people who own Duals would be up in arms if they were reprinted. I don't know what play groups you know of, but I've never seen anyone who plays the format regularly who opposes reprints. I'd be surprised if there were any examples you could point to on this or any other forum. Legacy players would be totally cool with reprints. It's not the player base that WotC is worried about; it's the SHADOWY COLLECTOR/INVESTOR CABAL that may or may not exist.
Buying up the entire product online in the hopes of making money MAY be your right as an individual, but all it really does is make people salty and make it more difficult for players to compete.
You want to pay for the hobby, go play AND win at FNM, or any other such format/tournament and trade like the rest of the minions out there.
RIP Karn EDH
The solution lies in MaximumC post, I've been saying this for 10 years now...wizards has to considered eternal in set designing..
There's nothing wrong with a 10% price increase per year for staples...and I think we can live with jump between .50$ and 4$ for a old rare...the problem is the 100% jump overnight due to hoarder...
Living End Contributor and Enthusiast
Come Pucatrade with me
Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
Any data for this? All sources I've read indicate an increase in players at sanctioned events, not less.
The only use I can think of for this card is playing some kind of 94/95 deck that uses Berserk as a win condition, since the 4th edition copies are certainly playable and 20 cents, and Fists of the Anvil is "just better" for red/green (infect?) a lot of the time, and I don't think I've ever seen that. I think this buyout was a mistake on behalf of the buyer. And I would have defended the Mindslicer buyout to a certain dollar amount.
Immolation is a better card from that era, since it can double as removal. Is that one going, next?