So, I've been trying a new build of my Delver deck and I've come up with a list that I think is pretty good. It could use a better mana base and thoughtseize but I've been having fun with it and it's competitive in the tournament practice room!
I would definitely be interested in any low budget tweaks that might make it more viable in the dailies so here it is:
The game plan is to get out a rack or two, hit them with hand disruption every so often, and make good use of the beaters. I mostly seem to have problems against super aggro decks (like a Merfolk deck I played against) and the Tron control family (turn 3 Karn is pretty tough to beat). Good matchups are generally against any deck that likes to dump its own hand.
Your deck has a lot of random 1 and 2-ofs. I would cut these and fill out the playsets of things. Remand is amazing in Delver, so I would definitely kick that up to 4.
Point taken, they're not really random choices though
The trinket mages can go for the racks, or in a tight spot can grab the executioners capsule, there are 4 counters although they are slightly different they basically do the same thing (I can try going with 4 remand though), and the beater creatures Nyxathid and Vampire Nighthawk, seem to pop up when they're need on account of Telling Time.
Runechanter's Pike seems good, I used to run it as a 2 of in earlier builds but I'm really not sure if I need it at all, if the deck's functioning properly then I don't but it has given me a couple of wins here and there that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
Raven's Crime is another one I'm undecided on, in an earlier build I was running Despise. Despise is much better early game and Raven's Crime much better late game. Although perhaps that might help me against the Karns.
I think as soon as it's affordable for you Vendillion Clique and Grim Lavamancer deserve slots over Nyxathid and Nighthawk; and I'd even cut the Trinket Mages completely; Maybe move them to the board for a toolbox package.
I think Spell Snare would be good here, too; especially if you up your Remand count; Spell Pierces and Dispel would be good in your board with Duress, too.
I don't particularly like Raven's Crime without Loam. They should change to thoughtseizes if possible.
Maybe use Earthquake instead of BSZ as your sweeper of choice? It would act as a one sided wrath effect in this deck (provided Delver is flipped).
If you're having trouble with Karn, you should try thought seize, the tron decks running karn usually only have a single threat in hand at a time and ripping that threat feelz great.
Nyxathid and Vampire Nighthawk are both quite slow, so you'll wanna focus more on control than aggression with them, more simply put: more counter magic. Either you get leak/remand up to 4 or you get better creatures who can hold the fort early game.
Raven's Crime seems kinda bad without any ways to get your land back. If you draw a land late game odds are you wont wanna ditch it to ravens crime. Either your opponent wont have a hand, or will be holding land of their own because they know you're running discard and wanna bait out blightning and such.
just some thoughts. =]
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Gah, I think this deck idea needs to be re-investigated. Playing with RUg, and I'm still looking for something to substitute tarmo for. I would love to dump him for the power of inquisition and V.clique. Maybe grixis is a good direction for tempo?
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Seems good vs control, Tron, other Delver lists, and Jund with all the hand-wrecking and counterspells. Seems really bad vs. Burn with all the fetch/shock lands, Confidant, Probe, and Thoughtseize hurting you.
4 Thoughtseize?
Might I ask why you guys are playing this over IoK? IoK hits everything we care about and doesn't shock us(seems like there was some concern about self damage).
Uranium, doesn't probe seem a bit outta place when you really don't need to see their hand on account of having access to target hand disruption? Feels like this slot would be better as any other cantrip (serum visions?)
I think we should start with a solid list of cards that are needed for this deck to function optimally, this way, even as we optimize our lists, we will all have a central base. Because I'm too lazy to make a primer this seems like a good place to start the brainstorming.
**note that the CMC of these cards should not exceed 4, because this is a tempo deck and so we can use bob optimally.
instants
x4 lightning bolt
x4 two drop counter magic (remand leak etc)
x2-4 one drop counter magic (so we are less likely to be hit by opposing duress, IoK, thoughtseize)
sorcery
x4 one drop hand manipulation
x4 target hand disruption (I think IoK would be best here)
Any thing that should be added/removed? I think with a 30ish card skeleton, that leaves enough flex room to customize the deck with removal/other triicks.
I like Gitaxian Probe because it doesn't cost mana to get a free draw and some information. It helps with one-land openers and tells you whether you need to cast Thoughtseize, or if it's safe to play something else. The fact that it's free information helps us to stay ahead in tempo while playing optimally.
As for Inquisition of Kozilek, it doesn't hit Gifts Ungiven or Karn Liberated. With the list I posted, I have no answers to a resolved Karn or Iona naming blue. So Thoughtseize gives me 8 maindeck answers to Tron instead of just 4 (Mana Leak). Because I don't always have the Leak for all relevant threats.
I have yet to actually play the deck as listed but I plan on doing some testing this week/end. I also want to try a more discard-heavy version with Rise/Fall, Blightning, and Sedraxis Specter.
I like Gitaxian Probe because it doesn't cost mana to get a free draw and some information. It helps with one-land openers and tells you whether you need to cast Thoughtseize, or if it's safe to play something else. The fact that it's free information helps us to stay ahead in tempo while playing optimally.
As for Inquisition of Kozilek, it doesn't hit Gifts Ungiven or Karn Liberated. With the list I posted, I have no answers to a resolved Karn or Iona naming blue. So Thoughtseize gives me 8 maindeck answers to Tron instead of just 4 (Mana Leak). Because I don't always have the Leak for all relevant threats.
I have yet to actually play the deck as listed but I plan on doing some testing this week/end. I also want to try a more discard-heavy version with Rise/Fall, Blightning, and Sedraxis Specter.
I just wanna point out real quick that it does not help with 1 land openers. Remember that you have better odds of drawing a non-land than a land. I mean, unless you have some serious business in that 1 land land, you should never keep it. If anything, probe see likely to influence you into keeping hands that you really shouldn't keep.
Happy testing man. I'll put up the list I'm working on Sat (weekly modern then).
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
I play almost a similar decklist in legacy and I have no issues and my game against rug is good especially after side boarding, also i get to run cheap black removal. I will admit I have no experience with modern and the shocklands may be too much but really how often is thoughtseize cast more than once or twice? And if taking 2 saves me from taking more than 2 great. And anyone that thinks that vexing delver isn't good or doesn't belong in a tempo list has not played it.
I play almost a similar decklist in legacy and I have no issues and my game against rug is good especially after side boarding, also i get to run cheap black removal. I will admit I have no experience with modern and the shocklands may be too much but really how often is thoughtseize cast more than once or twice? And if taking 2 saves me from taking more than 2 great. And anyone that thinks that vexing delver isn't good or doesn't belong in a tempo list has not played it.
As someone who has played and tested with vexing devil, I'd like to point out that more traditional tempo lists need their early creatures to stick in order to win. It's hard to get vexing devil to stick.
Then again, your deck has many interesting choices that I think should be looked at more in depth. For example:
~you include Remand but not snapcaster. Do you feel that snapcaster is too slow? Or leak not good enough? are you worried about them interfering with your two tombstalkers? (seems unlikely)
~Spell Snare over Spell Pierce? What 2 drops are you worried about? Typically the best targets for this are goyf and bob, but you run terminate so neither should be a problem.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
What are some good creatures to run? Right now I've only got 4 Delvers, 2 Tombstalkers, 2 Snapcasters. I'm looking probably for a good red creature, because I need a reason to justify the red lol, other than uh, Lightning Bolts and Terminate's.
Grim Lavamancer is pretty good in the current meta. It kills so much stuff, including Bob, enemy Tiago, enemy Delvers, V. Clique, Melira, BBE, Thalia, enemy Lavamancers, and more. Pinging planeswalkers and players is a bonus.
As someone who has played and tested with vexing devil, I'd like to point out that more traditional tempo lists need their early creatures to stick in order to win. It's hard to get vexing devil to stick.
Then again, your deck has many interesting choices that I think should be looked at more in depth. For example:
~you include Remand but not snapcaster. Do you feel that snapcaster is too slow? Or leak not good enough? are you worried about them interfering with your two tombstalkers? (seems unlikely)
~Spell Snare over Spell Pierce? What 2 drops are you worried about? Typically the best targets for this are goyf and bob, but you run terminate so neither should be a problem.
Honestly I just ported over what I could and filled in the blanks without much thought. Snapcaster probably should be included and Clique hitting the bench. Like is said, I have no experience with this format and I really don't know what counters are best.
Your deck has a lot of random 1 and 2-ofs. I would cut these and fill out the playsets of things. Remand is amazing in Delver, so I would definitely kick that up to 4.
Dont underestimate one ofs, i won allot if money because of the "one ofs" in my deck, i would do four remands if u can get them, but the run pike is a great one of
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598510-grixis-delver
So, I've been trying a new build of my Delver deck and I've come up with a list that I think is pretty good. It could use a better mana base and thoughtseize but I've been having fun with it and it's competitive in the tournament practice room!
I would definitely be interested in any low budget tweaks that might make it more viable in the dailies so here it is:
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Trinket Mage
2 Nyxathid
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vampire Nighthawk
Spells
3 Telling Time
1 Executioner's Capsule
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mana Leak
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Condescend
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Raven's Crime
3 Blightning
2 The Rack
1 Remand
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
5 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
3 Mountain
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Memoricide
2 Spell Burst
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Flashfreeze
2 Spellskite
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Muddle the Mixture
The game plan is to get out a rack or two, hit them with hand disruption every so often, and make good use of the beaters. I mostly seem to have problems against super aggro decks (like a Merfolk deck I played against) and the Tron control family (turn 3 Karn is pretty tough to beat). Good matchups are generally against any deck that likes to dump its own hand.
The trinket mages can go for the racks, or in a tight spot can grab the executioners capsule, there are 4 counters although they are slightly different they basically do the same thing (I can try going with 4 remand though), and the beater creatures Nyxathid and Vampire Nighthawk, seem to pop up when they're need on account of Telling Time.
Runechanter's Pike seems good, I used to run it as a 2 of in earlier builds but I'm really not sure if I need it at all, if the deck's functioning properly then I don't but it has given me a couple of wins here and there that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
Raven's Crime is another one I'm undecided on, in an earlier build I was running Despise. Despise is much better early game and Raven's Crime much better late game. Although perhaps that might help me against the Karns.
I think Spell Snare would be good here, too; especially if you up your Remand count; Spell Pierces and Dispel would be good in your board with Duress, too.
I don't particularly like Raven's Crime without Loam. They should change to thoughtseizes if possible.
Maybe use Earthquake instead of BSZ as your sweeper of choice? It would act as a one sided wrath effect in this deck (provided Delver is flipped).
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Nyxathid and Vampire Nighthawk are both quite slow, so you'll wanna focus more on control than aggression with them, more simply put: more counter magic. Either you get leak/remand up to 4 or you get better creatures who can hold the fort early game.
Raven's Crime seems kinda bad without any ways to get your land back. If you draw a land late game odds are you wont wanna ditch it to ravens crime. Either your opponent wont have a hand, or will be holding land of their own because they know you're running discard and wanna bait out blightning and such.
just some thoughts. =]
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dark Confidant
3 Vendilion Clique
Spells 24
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Vapor Snag
4 Mana Leak
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
Seems good vs control, Tron, other Delver lists, and Jund with all the hand-wrecking and counterspells. Seems really bad vs. Burn with all the fetch/shock lands, Confidant, Probe, and Thoughtseize hurting you.
Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation
Currently Playing:
BPack RatB
Modern:
WURRWU ControlRUW
Legacy:
UHigh TideU
UGTurbo EldraziGU
EDH:
RWURuhan Planeswalker ControlUWR
RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Vexing Devil
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells 28
4 Spell Snare
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Blightning
4 Thoughtseize
4 Terminate
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
rxavage
4 Thoughtseize?
Might I ask why you guys are playing this over IoK? IoK hits everything we care about and doesn't shock us(seems like there was some concern about self damage).
Uranium, doesn't probe seem a bit outta place when you really don't need to see their hand on account of having access to target hand disruption? Feels like this slot would be better as any other cantrip (serum visions?)
I think we should start with a solid list of cards that are needed for this deck to function optimally, this way, even as we optimize our lists, we will all have a central base. Because I'm too lazy to make a primer this seems like a good place to start the brainstorming.
**note that the CMC of these cards should not exceed 4, because this is a tempo deck and so we can use bob optimally.
so indisputable cards:
creatures
x4 delver of secrets
x4 dark confidant
x3-4 snapcaster mage
x2-4 efficient creature (preferably with evasion)
instants
x4 lightning bolt
x4 two drop counter magic (remand leak etc)
x2-4 one drop counter magic (so we are less likely to be hit by opposing duress, IoK, thoughtseize)
sorcery
x4 one drop hand manipulation
x4 target hand disruption (I think IoK would be best here)
Any thing that should be added/removed? I think with a 30ish card skeleton, that leaves enough flex room to customize the deck with removal/other triicks.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
As for Inquisition of Kozilek, it doesn't hit Gifts Ungiven or Karn Liberated. With the list I posted, I have no answers to a resolved Karn or Iona naming blue. So Thoughtseize gives me 8 maindeck answers to Tron instead of just 4 (Mana Leak). Because I don't always have the Leak for all relevant threats.
I have yet to actually play the deck as listed but I plan on doing some testing this week/end. I also want to try a more discard-heavy version with Rise/Fall, Blightning, and Sedraxis Specter.
Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation
Currently Playing:
BPack RatB
Modern:
WURRWU ControlRUW
Legacy:
UHigh TideU
UGTurbo EldraziGU
EDH:
RWURuhan Planeswalker ControlUWR
RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
I just wanna point out real quick that it does not help with 1 land openers. Remember that you have better odds of drawing a non-land than a land. I mean, unless you have some serious business in that 1 land land, you should never keep it. If anything, probe see likely to influence you into keeping hands that you really shouldn't keep.
Happy testing man. I'll put up the list I'm working on Sat (weekly modern then).
As someone who has played and tested with vexing devil, I'd like to point out that more traditional tempo lists need their early creatures to stick in order to win. It's hard to get vexing devil to stick.
Then again, your deck has many interesting choices that I think should be looked at more in depth. For example:
~you include Remand but not snapcaster. Do you feel that snapcaster is too slow? Or leak not good enough? are you worried about them interfering with your two tombstalkers? (seems unlikely)
~Spell Snare over Spell Pierce? What 2 drops are you worried about? Typically the best targets for this are goyf and bob, but you run terminate so neither should be a problem.
Honestly I just ported over what I could and filled in the blanks without much thought. Snapcaster probably should be included and Clique hitting the bench. Like is said, I have no experience with this format and I really don't know what counters are best.
Dont underestimate one ofs, i won allot if money because of the "one ofs" in my deck, i would do four remands if u can get them, but the run pike is a great one of