The full playset of Cryptic seems like a lot. Maybe going down to 2 is correct? Also, 23 Instants and Sorceries makes me curious as to how often Delver will flip, and it also makes Snapcaster less consistently good. You don't have Ponder or Preordain to help ensure topdeck transforms, either, but that might be workable with Telling Time.
Attempting to import Tempo Thresh into Modern is a fine idea (though more than 18 lands is a must), but part of the secret to its Legacy success was 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder. Now, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are much worse, but sticking in cheap cantrips is almost a must.
When I played it at the tournament I jammed the Grove/Fire combo in last minute. Before that I had Magma Jet in it and it was filtering for the delver. I also had Grim Lavamancerin the deck for the tournament.
The awkward mana base did make casting Cryptic Command difficult a few times, so cutting some number of them may be correct. Though with the revisions after the tournament I may have fixed the awkward mana base issue.
Replacing Cryptic Command with Searing Blaze might also be a good option is the format remains creature heavy.
Not a fan of delver without brainstorm. Also cryptic does need to be either trimmed or removed.
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Snapcaster Mage surely can have its place here, I just don't have the card.
Spell Pierce could be Spell Snare and Telling Time could be replaced with Serum Visions.
It also needs some more win conditions, I'm not sure yet what to use. Some good manlands could do the trick. Anyway, this is only a rough sketch and it's kinda too "honest" for the format.
I don't have much to say about the spell choices, as I haven't tested with or against a deck similar to this, but the land is going to hurt. I don't know if the people you're playing against aren't going to be running Ghost Quarter, but it sees a good deal of play in Modern (especially with Knight of the Reliquary).
And it's not just making sure you want one of each basic for the Ghost Quarter, either. The main concern is how much damage you end up taking from your lands. You can easily cut down to 3 Steam Vents, and I think 2 would be the better number. Add 2 more Scalding Tarn. That gives you 2 more options to take 1 damage instead of 2 when you need to save on life.
Of course, you could counter with the fact that more fetches means more often needing to take 3 damage instead of only 2 for playing an untapped Shockland, but as you get more used to playing with more fetches, you will quickly find ways around taking as much damage. Shocklands just don't give as much of a choice; you either take 2 or play the land tapped. More choice = more opportunities for better, tighter play.
Again, I haven't tested with the deck, so I don't know what the right numbers are, but I would try and fit in more basic lands to reduce the amount of damage I take. Otherwise, I would expect to get blown out by fast burn decks.
@OP idk, 4 remand? i've been brewing RUG too and i find that against zoo decks for example, remands are really underwhelming.
sure you bounce it to their hand and you get CA off the extra card, but they dont really lose that much tempo when can just replay whatever you countered. everything costs 1-3 mana in their deck, and you are tapping out on turn 2, or tapping most of your mana. you can't do anything with the measly tempo you've gained. i think remand is a 2 of at most.
Attempting to import Tempo Thresh into Modern is a fine idea (though more than 18 lands is a must), but part of the secret to its Legacy success was 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder. Now, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are much worse, but sticking in cheap cantrips is almost a must.
^ completely agree with this. i think we'll be hovering between 20-23 lands.
EDIT:
well here are some things i've noticed while toying with this deck (i'll post my list soon too lazy :P):
1. Snapcaster Mage- the biggest ? in this deck imo. after going through a lot of different versions of my deck i think the basic formula is: more snapcasters/less land/more cantrips/really cheap spells, or less snapcasters/more land/less cantrips/not as cheap spells. i dont think option 1 is possible in modern, so that means snapcaster shouldnt be a 4 of. when i ran 4, he was often stuck in my hand without anything relevant to recur in my graveyard. so now im just running him as a 2 of, a little bit of lategame flexibility when my GY is already chock-full of answers.
2. Delver of Secrets - he is significantly worse without brainstorm or ponder, but i feel like, damn, he is still really good. he can filter the top of your deck, and if you dont like it, crack a fetch. As long as I run a high number of instants and sorceries he's been golden.
3. Telling time - its the only instant speed cantrip i could find in modern that's decent enough. but it costs 2 mana :(. is it worth it at all? currently running 0 cantrips in my list. delver still flips consistently enough.
4. punishing fire - my deck Urg, as in splashing green and red ONLY for goyf and bolt respectively. nothing else in those two colors, barring board options, have really felt worth their slots imo. punishing fire is 2 friggin mana. i dont care if it sharpshooters the board its soooooo slow and clunky. and to use it effectively i need to have 3 or 4 groves which makes me want to run more red and green to justify a land that doesnt produce ANY blue mana. grim lavamancer is a better choice, but i think he might have anti-synergy with snapcaster.
and modern is such a new format its too hard to definitively say what is really good or bad right now anyways. all these small details we have questions about will probably be just meta calls once modern matures enough. we'll be asking ourselves:
last things, what do you guys think of Familiar's Ruse? its a hard counter with some synergy with clique and tiago. And how about Turn Aside (or avoid fate i guess)? It's got a low cost, and its seems like efficient protection when you go to beat face. I really like it because of my earlier argument about low costs + snapcasters. and gitaxian probe? it lets you know exactly how you need to be allocating the spells in your hand, and draws you a card.
Agree about Remand. The later the game goes the better it is though. 2-of seems fine...
I like Firespout because in the context of just controlling the board with V. Clique, you can smash the ground and keep pecking. Vice versa if you are getting smashed by opposing Insectile Aberrations and Cliques.
I like Repeal better than Snag. It is less restrictive and replaces itself.
IDK about Lavamancer. I think he is worth testing.
Fire/Grove engine is too ridiculous to pass on...
As far as cantrips, Serum Visions is the only one I would run because of Scry. Sleight of Hand does nothing to help flip delver...
I like Firespout because in the context of just controlling the board with V. Clique, you can smash the ground and keep pecking. Vice versa if you are getting smashed by opposing Insectile Aberrations and Cliques.
Firespout won't smack creatures with flying if all you pay is 2R. Firespout kills Clique and Aberration if you pay 1GR or 2G. You can't win, it seems.
The later the game goes on against a deck with a low curve, the worse Remand gets. Still, it's almost a Time Walk when cast right.
Umm, decks with a low curve is why the card is why I was saying it shouldn't be a 4-of. Still a 2-of is fine cause you can gain tempo off of it for free when they tap out.
I have been running with this idea..It is awesome. I have cut Cryptic completely however, and I was just wondering how you felt about this. I am at work right now, but I will post a list and a link to my youtube vids later.
Also, does it ever seem anti synergistic having Lavamancer, Snapcaster, and Tarmogoyf in the same deck?
Good point. In my build (with no green cards) sometimes in the early game Lavamancer wants to drink from Snapcaster's cup
Tarmogoy also lives from the opponent's graveyard, which means it usually is at least a 3/4 (Land+Creature+Instant), maybe it's no problem at all. The trick would be not playing it too soon.
Too be honest it's not that bad. Most of the times you just go
Turn 1 - fetch, lavamancer
Turn 2 - fetch, bolt, use lavamancer (remove the fetchlands)
Turn 3 - snapcaster, bolt from the grave
That actually sounds like a sick line of play...
Maybe I will test Lavamancers. Seems like he could maybe speed up the clock a little and/or act as another way to win Goyf blocking wars.
Historically, Lavamancer has been run alongside Goyf in Legacy to help you win the Goyf wars (similar to Noble Hierarch, and both have a sweet secondary effect on their own). Lavamancer, while somewhat anti-synergistic with Snapcaster, shouldn't be much of an issue to use if you are smart about choosing your targets (prioritize lands and creatures first, dead cards second, etc.). I think there are a number of creatures you want to run in a deck like this, the main four being Tiago, Goyf, Lavamancer, and V. Clique. I'd run something similar to the following:
This is just a theory based list. I'm not really a fan of Firespout anymore, to be honest. Only bad Zoo players will overcommit to the board so heavily where Firespout is incredibly relevant. Usually, your spot removal and cheap countermagic should be enough to get you through to the end-game and keep the board clean. Most of the deck already operates at Instant-speed. You shouldn't ever have to tap out with this build, unless it's for turn 1 Lavamancer (which isn't that great of a play, anyways). I do think I want more Spell Snares in the maindeck, but I'm sure I could cram some in the sideboard.
original
2 Breeding Pool
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Cascade Bluffs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Punishing Fire
3 Firespout
4 Cryptic Command
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Repeal
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Breeding Pool
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Punishing Fire
4 Remand
3 Magma Jet
2 Firespout
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Repeal
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Serum Visions does set those up nicely.
Attempting to import Tempo Thresh into Modern is a fine idea (though more than 18 lands is a must), but part of the secret to its Legacy success was 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder. Now, Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are much worse, but sticking in cheap cantrips is almost a must.
The awkward mana base did make casting Cryptic Command difficult a few times, so cutting some number of them may be correct. Though with the revisions after the tournament I may have fixed the awkward mana base issue.
Replacing Cryptic Command with Searing Blaze might also be a good option is the format remains creature heavy.
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Needs moar Delver.
I've been toying with an UR build, but RUG surely can be a contender. Here's my list:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Remand
4 Repeal
4 Spell Pierce
4 Telling Time
4 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Flamebreak
Snapcaster Mage surely can have its place here, I just don't have the card.
Spell Pierce could be Spell Snare and Telling Time could be replaced with Serum Visions.
It also needs some more win conditions, I'm not sure yet what to use. Some good manlands could do the trick. Anyway, this is only a rough sketch and it's kinda too "honest" for the format.
And it's not just making sure you want one of each basic for the Ghost Quarter, either. The main concern is how much damage you end up taking from your lands. You can easily cut down to 3 Steam Vents, and I think 2 would be the better number. Add 2 more Scalding Tarn. That gives you 2 more options to take 1 damage instead of 2 when you need to save on life.
Of course, you could counter with the fact that more fetches means more often needing to take 3 damage instead of only 2 for playing an untapped Shockland, but as you get more used to playing with more fetches, you will quickly find ways around taking as much damage. Shocklands just don't give as much of a choice; you either take 2 or play the land tapped. More choice = more opportunities for better, tighter play.
Again, I haven't tested with the deck, so I don't know what the right numbers are, but I would try and fit in more basic lands to reduce the amount of damage I take. Otherwise, I would expect to get blown out by fast burn decks.
Thanks for giving me a starting point.
sure you bounce it to their hand and you get CA off the extra card, but they dont really lose that much tempo when can just replay whatever you countered. everything costs 1-3 mana in their deck, and you are tapping out on turn 2, or tapping most of your mana. you can't do anything with the measly tempo you've gained. i think remand is a 2 of at most.
Condescend requires a lot of mana! but if you are countering 1 drops i think it seems pretty good actually, hm...
And it scries too nice!
^ completely agree with this. i think we'll be hovering between 20-23 lands.
EDIT:
well here are some things i've noticed while toying with this deck (i'll post my list soon too lazy :P):
1. Snapcaster Mage- the biggest ? in this deck imo. after going through a lot of different versions of my deck i think the basic formula is: more snapcasters/less land/more cantrips/really cheap spells, or less snapcasters/more land/less cantrips/not as cheap spells. i dont think option 1 is possible in modern, so that means snapcaster shouldnt be a 4 of. when i ran 4, he was often stuck in my hand without anything relevant to recur in my graveyard. so now im just running him as a 2 of, a little bit of lategame flexibility when my GY is already chock-full of answers.
2. Delver of Secrets - he is significantly worse without brainstorm or ponder, but i feel like, damn, he is still really good. he can filter the top of your deck, and if you dont like it, crack a fetch. As long as I run a high number of instants and sorceries he's been golden.
3. Telling time - its the only instant speed cantrip i could find in modern that's decent enough. but it costs 2 mana :(. is it worth it at all? currently running 0 cantrips in my list. delver still flips consistently enough.
4. punishing fire - my deck Urg, as in splashing green and red ONLY for goyf and bolt respectively. nothing else in those two colors, barring board options, have really felt worth their slots imo. punishing fire is 2 friggin mana. i dont care if it sharpshooters the board its soooooo slow and clunky. and to use it effectively i need to have 3 or 4 groves which makes me want to run more red and green to justify a land that doesnt produce ANY blue mana. grim lavamancer is a better choice, but i think he might have anti-synergy with snapcaster.
and modern is such a new format its too hard to definitively say what is really good or bad right now anyways. all these small details we have questions about will probably be just meta calls once modern matures enough. we'll be asking ourselves:
Firespout or Flamebreak or Volcanic Fallout?
Rune Snag or Mana Leak?
Vapor Snag or Repeal?
Grim Lavamancer? Remand?
Do i need manlands?
you know, these types of questions.
last things, what do you guys think of Familiar's Ruse? its a hard counter with some synergy with clique and tiago. And how about Turn Aside (or avoid fate i guess)? It's got a low cost, and its seems like efficient protection when you go to beat face. I really like it because of my earlier argument about low costs + snapcasters. and gitaxian probe? it lets you know exactly how you need to be allocating the spells in your hand, and draws you a card.
Agree about Remand. The later the game goes the better it is though. 2-of seems fine...
I like Firespout because in the context of just controlling the board with V. Clique, you can smash the ground and keep pecking. Vice versa if you are getting smashed by opposing Insectile Aberrations and Cliques.
I like Repeal better than Snag. It is less restrictive and replaces itself.
IDK about Lavamancer. I think he is worth testing.
Fire/Grove engine is too ridiculous to pass on...
As far as cantrips, Serum Visions is the only one I would run because of Scry. Sleight of Hand does nothing to help flip delver...
Telling Time is fine, I guess.
The later the game goes on against a deck with a low curve, the worse Remand gets. Still, it's almost a Time Walk when cast right.
Firespout won't smack creatures with flying if all you pay is 2R. Firespout kills Clique and Aberration if you pay 1GR or 2G. You can't win, it seems.
Umm, decks with a low curve is why the card is why I was saying it shouldn't be a 4-of. Still a 2-of is fine cause you can gain tempo off of it for free when they tap out.
I understand how firespout works.
You can hit the ground OR air OR both...so how am I not winning?
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Breeding Pool
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mutavault
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
3 Punishing Fire
2 Firespout
4 Cryptic Command
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Repeal
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Firespout
2 Jace Beleren
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Threads of Disloyalty
What does your meta look like?
I have been running with this idea..It is awesome. I have cut Cryptic completely however, and I was just wondering how you felt about this. I am at work right now, but I will post a list and a link to my youtube vids later.
Also, does it ever seem anti synergistic having Lavamancer, Snapcaster, and Tarmogoyf in the same deck?
That is right. I forgot. I confuse him and Knight of the Reliquary STILL. Thanks.
And yeah, the Lavamancer and Snapcaster seem like they would work against each other.
anyway. I am going to still post some replay vids soon.
That actually sounds like a sick line of play...
Maybe I will test Lavamancers. Seems like he could maybe speed up the clock a little and/or act as another way to win Goyf blocking wars.
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Flooded Grove
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
Other Spells (21):
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
2 Repeal
2 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
This is just a theory based list. I'm not really a fan of Firespout anymore, to be honest. Only bad Zoo players will overcommit to the board so heavily where Firespout is incredibly relevant. Usually, your spot removal and cheap countermagic should be enough to get you through to the end-game and keep the board clean. Most of the deck already operates at Instant-speed. You shouldn't ever have to tap out with this build, unless it's for turn 1 Lavamancer (which isn't that great of a play, anyways). I do think I want more Spell Snares in the maindeck, but I'm sure I could cram some in the sideboard.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG